Convert O-A to O at Jomtien. MAJOR GLITCH

[Lichiyado]

3 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Please update the forum as things unfold.

There will be lot of folk interested in your outcome.

Hopefully you can obtain correct procedure and not be scammed.

Yes, I plan to post updates as I figure out what's up. Thanks to all for your input. 

[scubascuba3]

6 hours ago, Lichiyado said:

Hmmm...when you suggested to use an agent, I was thinking I'll be on the hook for something like the 22K the IO asked from me. In addition I was concerned that I might be on the hook to an agent, ad-infinitum. Upon further thought maybe that's not justified because I'm not asking them to do anything outwardly hinky. And if Maneerat is willing to do it for 5Kish, that certainly would be worth the price of admission, and certainly cheaper than another trip to Laos. Thanks for doubling down on this, Jack. I just wasn't getting it. I'll give the agent a call or visit, if the trip to JT immigration to talk to a supervisor yields no useful results. Thanks!

I'm not sure she has a supervisor, she is boss lady in room 7, likes wearing full uniform with stripes and everything. Maneerat is good but unlikely to be 5k, i think when i was in the transition period with 800k they charged me 8k for extension only, usual price 12.5k

[Lichiyado]

3 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

I'm not sure she has a supervisor, she is boss lady in room 7, likes wearing full uniform with stripes and everything. Maneerat is good but unlikely to be 5k, i think when i was in the transition period with 800k they charged me 8k for extension only, usual price 12.5k

Well, I slept on it. Still pondering strategies. Thanks for the idea that Boss Lady might not have a supervisor, and that I might be piXXing in the wind if I go back to immigration. I hope to talk to my friend who works at immigration today, asking him if she, in fact, does have a boss I can pleasantly talk to, but being very careful not to get my friend involved in anything other than information gathering. I don't want him to risk his job over this. Also I'm thinking of going to Maneerak today or tomorrow to get a quote for their service. 12.5K or even 8K seems a little rich for my blood, but it remains an option. As does another trip to Laos. I'll keep you posted.

[BritTim]

You are dealing with a highly experienced, corrupt official here, and outmanoeuvring her will be very difficult. I would be prepared to bet that, even when she is not working, her subordinates are under instructions to try to run the same scam (with her getting the bulk of the profit).

 

If I decided to fight, this is what I would try to say to her. It is some combination of (i) making clear you know exactly what is going on; (ii) express sympathy for her situation as someone who gets a low salary but had to pay big money for her position; (iii) say that, sympathetic as you are, your religion outlaws paying bribes, and ask her to help, making an exception by following the rules normally in your case; (iv) promise that no one else will ever know of her abnormal adherence to the rules; and (v) explain that, if forced to move provinces and immigration offices by her actions, you will carefully (without risking falling afoul of the defamation laws) ensure that it is widely known (and especially by anti corruption campaigners) that officials at a certain immigration office in a well known Thai seaside resort are shaking down retirees for ransom payments. This could affect her colleagues as well as herself.

 

All this has to be done very, very carefully. If you are unable to keep talking in a friendly voice and with a permanent smile on your face, do not even attempt it.  It will not be the first time she has dealt with uncooperative victims, and it is by no means certain you will be successful. However, I have successfully used similar approaches in the past with extremely corrupt officials in more than one country.

[scubascuba3]

38 minutes ago, BritTim said:

You are dealing with a highly experienced, corrupt official here, and outmanoeuvring her will be very difficult. I would be prepared to bet that, even when she is not working, her subordinates are under instructions to try to run the same scam (with her getting the bulk of the profit).

 

If I decided to fight, this is what I would try to say to her. It is some combination of (i) making clear you know exactly what is going on; (ii) express sympathy for her situation as someone who gets a low salary but had to pay big money for her position; (iii) say that, sympathetic as you are, your religion outlaws paying bribes, and ask her to help, making an exception by following the rules normally in your case; (iv) promise that no one else will ever know of her abnormal adherence to the rules; and (v) explain that, if forced to move provinces and immigration offices by her actions, you will carefully (without risking falling afoul of the defamation laws) ensure that it is widely known (and especially by anti corruption campaigners) that officials at a certain immigration office in a well known Thai seaside resort are shaking down retirees for ransom payments. This could affect her colleagues as well as herself.

 

All this has to be done very, very carefully. If you are unable to keep talking in a friendly voice and with a permanent smile on your face, do not even attempt it.  It will not be the first time she has dealt with uncooperative victims, and it is by no means certain you will be successful. However, I have successfully used similar approaches in the past with extremely corrupt officials in more than one country.

That's too funny, she would shut you up after or during the first sentence 

[Lichiyado]

 

46 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

That's too funny, she would shut you up after or during the first sentence 

She already did that. When she said "2 months seasoning" I mildly protested and tried to explain what I understood about the procedure and the law. She cut me off saying "Who's the immigration officer here, me or you?" I looked away and tried my darnedest not to roll my eyes. Our communication remained polite, but at that point it was checkmate. I knew it, she knew it.

[Lichiyado]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

You are dealing with a highly experienced, corrupt official here, and outmanoeuvring her will be very difficult. I would be prepared to bet that, even when she is not working, her subordinates are under instructions to try to run the same scam (with her getting the bulk of the profit).

 

If I decided to fight, this is what I would try to say to her. It is some combination of (i) making clear you know exactly what is going on; (ii) express sympathy for her situation as someone who gets a low salary but had to pay big money for her position; (iii) say that, sympathetic as you are, your religion outlaws paying bribes, and ask her to help, making an exception by following the rules normally in your case; (iv) promise that no one else will ever know of her abnormal adherence to the rules; and (v) explain that, if forced to move provinces and immigration offices by her actions, you will carefully (without risking falling afoul of the defamation laws) ensure that it is widely known (and especially by anti corruption campaigners) that officials at a certain immigration office in a well known Thai seaside resort are shaking down retirees for ransom payments. This could affect her colleagues as well as herself.

 

All this has to be done very, very carefully. If you are unable to keep talking in a friendly voice and with a permanent smile on your face, do not even attempt it.  It will not be the first time she has dealt with uncooperative victims, and it is by no means certain you will be successful. However, I have successfully used similar approaches in the past with extremely corrupt officials in more than one country.

Thanks much for your input. It was a good read, and I admire your fortitude and tenaciousness. And it got my blood flowing a bit. But I'm pretty sure your idea is not quite my M.O. Clearly, she's very experienced and knows how to game the system. And I think you're right, her subordinates would likely toe the line if necessary. And if she has a big boss supervisor, she might have his blessing. So, I'm still pondering the situation. It isn't the end of the world, but requires a fair amount of my brain-space to deal with. I'm trying to make it not ruin my day, week, year, life.

Do you want to do the negotiations for me?  ????

[DrJack54]

14 minutes ago, Lichiyado said:

Our communication remained polite, but at that point it was checkmate. I knew it, she knew it.

Starting to think you would be wasting your time with this situation (immigration officer) 

You do have alternatives.

 

I'm bit of HCMC junkie.

You could see it as opportunity to have a mini holiday.

Obtain the non O in Saigon.

Ripper place and the Thai consulate is efficient office.

Vientiane is also overnight turn around for non O.

 

Of course you could use your immigration office and obtain the seasoning time the io is demanding with a border run..

 

 

 

[Lichiyado]

7 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Starting to think you would be wasting your time with this situation (immigration officer) 

You do have alternatives.

 

I'm bit of HCMC junkie.

You could see it as opportunity to have a mini holiday.

Obtain the non O in Saigon.

Ripper place and the Thai consulate is efficient office.

Vientiane is also overnight turn around for non O.

 

Of course you could use your immigration office and obtain the seasoning time the io is demanding with a border run..

Still pondering, Jack. But the idea of ever talking to her again or even talking to her supervisor, if she has one, makes my skin crawl. I have to admit there's a tad bit of vigilante juice roaming through my synapses, wanting what's fair and law-abiding. But I'm not a fool. I'll do my best to do the right thing...for me. With as little muss and fuss as possible. Saigon, you say? Hmmm....

[DrJack54]

8 minutes ago, Lichiyado said:

Saigon, you say? Hmmm..

Just an option. 

Lot of countries have visa exempt entry to Vietnam (15day).

 

The cheapish flights from Bangkok to Saigon is a bonus.

At front  of airport there is bus that runs often to district 1 bus terminal. Cost $1usd

The immigration office is close to Bui Vien st (walking street) very chill joint and lots of relax bars etc..

You need appointment now same at Vientiane.

AM application PM pick up next day..

Edited November 3, 2022 by DrJack54

[Lichiyado]

15 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Just an option. 

Lot of countries have visa exempt entry to Vietnam (15day).

 

The cheapish flights from Bangkok to Saigon is a bonus.

At front  of airport there is bus that runs often to district 1 bus terminal. Cost $1usd

The immigration office is close to Bui Vien st (walking street) very chill joint and lots of relax bars etc..

You need appointment now same at Vientiane.

AM application PM pick up next day..

Thanks for the tips. I'll consider everything by and by. Nothing is off the table at this point, other than paying that #%&*%% 22,000 THB. Likely head to Maneerak tomorrow and see what they have to say. I'll report back about that. Cheers!

[ubonjoe]

44 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

I'm bit of HCMC junkie.

You could see it as opportunity to have a mini holiday.

Obtain the non O in Saigon.

Not sure the consulate in Hoi Chi MInh city does a non-o visa based upon retirement. It is not shown on their website.

See: https://hochiminh.thaiembassy.org/en/page/cate-7436-type-of-visas-|-các-loại-visa?menu=5d80ab3315e39c2fe800a799

[Lichiyado]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Not sure the consulate in Hoi Chi MInh city does a non-o visa based upon retirement. It is not shown on their website.

See: https://hochiminh.thaiembassy.org/en/page/cate-7436-type-of-visas-|-các-loại-visa?menu=5d80ab3315e39c2fe800a799

HCMC isn't my first choice if travel is necessary, but I would like to visit some day. Thanks for the tip Joe. I appreciate it.

[Lichiyado]

UPDATE:

 

Spoke to my friend, a staff at Jomtien immigration and he said yes, the IO I was dealing with, desk 7, is a sole operator, having no in-house supervisor I could communicate my concerns to.

 

Today I went to Maneerat Agency on Soi Post Office in Pattaya and talked with Nan, a well--known agent. She said yes, the 800K 2 month seasoning is standard, accepted procedure for the first application for the Non-O. I showed her the instruction document from immigration:

https://www.immigration.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/9.FOR-RETIREMENT-PURPOSES-50-YEARS-OLD-NON-O.pdf

Her response was that the 800K seasoning should be listed on the form. But as we all know by now, it is not. I asked her if this rule applies to all immigration offices and she indicated it does, whether or not it's enforced.

 

I tried calling the immigration info line at 1178, hoping to verify that this policy is, in fact, law. I waited on hold for 15 minutes then gave up.

 

Maneerat offered a solution similar to the offer from the IO to resolve this. 23,000 THB for a 90 day Non-O visa and one yearly retirement extension. Total, 15 months of joy. Immigration fees are included in this price. She even offered to throw in a freebie 90 reporting service. Wheee! ????

 

I'm now clear what I have to do. 1. Pony up the dough and pay for the service, either through an agent or directly to the IO. 2. Do a border run. Nan quoted 4,500, one day service via mini-van. 3. Go to an embassy or consulate in a neighboring country and do the Non-O there. I haven't decided which to do yet, but to me, the information gathering and clarification of this issue is resolved.

 

Thanks to all who participated in this thread, and I highly recommend you consider that Jomtien immigration policy requires 2 month seasoning before your initial 90 day Non-O application. This may or may not apply to other immigration offices. You should check. 

 

Cheers and thanks again!

[scubascuba3]

6 minutes ago, Lichiyado said:

UPDATE:

 

Spoke to my friend, a staff at Jomtien immigration and he said yes, the IO I was dealing with, desk 7, is a sole operator, having no in-house supervisor I could communicate my concerns to.

 

Today I went to Maneerat Agency on Soi Post Office in Pattaya and talked with Nan, a well--known agent. She said yes, the 800K 2 month seasoning is standard, accepted procedure for the first application for the Non-O. I showed her the instruction document from immigration:

https://www.immigration.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/9.FOR-RETIREMENT-PURPOSES-50-YEARS-OLD-NON-O.pdf

Her response was that the 800K seasoning should be listed on the form. But as we all know by now, it is not. I asked her if this rule applies to all immigration offices and she indicated it does, whether or not it's enforced.

 

I tried calling the immigration info line at 1178, hoping to verify that this policy is, in fact, law. I waited on hold for 15 minutes then gave up.

 

Maneerat offered a solution similar to the offer from the IO to resolve this. 23,000 THB for a 90 day Non-O visa and one yearly retirement extension. Total, 15 months of joy. Immigration fees are included in this price. She even offered to throw in a freebie 90 reporting service. Wheee! ????

 

I'm now clear what I have to do. 1. Pony up the dough and pay for the service, either through an agent or directly to the IO. 2. Do a border run. Nan quoted 4,500, one day service via mini-van. 3. Go to an embassy or consulate in a neighboring country and do the Non-O there. I haven't decided which to do yet, but to me, the information gathering and clarification of this issue is resolved.

 

Thanks to all who participated in this thread, and I highly recommend you consider that Jomtien immigration policy requires 2 month seasoning before your initial 90 day Non-O application. This may or may not apply to other immigration offices. You should check. 

 

Cheers and thanks again!

For you the agent route is not so bad, 1 year only as you will easily be able go legit for the next extension as your 800k will be in there over a year

[Lichiyado]

4 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

For you the agent route is not so bad, 1 year only as you will easily be able go legit for the next extension as your 800k will be in there over a year

Pondering it now, Scuba. Not a horrible resolution if I go the agent route. I have a chum who wants to also convert from Non OA to Non O. We might do a road trip to the border.  I'll decide over the next few days.

[BritTim]

20 hours ago, Lichiyado said:

I'm now clear what I have to do. 1. Pony up the dough and pay for the service, either through an agent or directly to the IO. 2. Do a border run. Nan quoted 4,500, one day service via mini-van. 3. Go to an embassy or consulate in a neighboring country and do the Non-O there. I haven't decided which to do yet, but to me, the information gathering and clarification of this issue is resolved.

 

You do have one additional option. You could "move temporarily" into a hotel in Bangkok, and apply for the Non O visa at Chaengwattana immigration. You tell them that you are staying in a hotel temporarily while looking for a permanent place to live.

[DrJack54]

9 minutes ago, BritTim said:

You do have one additional option. You could "move temporarily" into a hotel in Bangkok, and apply for the Non O visa at Chaengwattana immigration. You tell them that you are staying in a hotel temporarily while looking for a permanent place to live.

Yep. I Mentioned that earlier however the OP didn't indicate that would be an option.....

 

"Another (ugly) option would be to apply in another immigration office.

 CW for example but that's messy and would require TM30 (change of address)"

[Lichiyado]

7 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Yep. I Mentioned that earlier however the OP didn't indicate that would be an option.....

 

"Another (ugly) option would be to apply in another immigration office.

 CW for example but that's messy and would require TM30 (change of address)"

I pretty much skimmed over this suggestion. Words like 'ugly' and 'messy' get my attention. And it feels like following this path would be these things. But I appreciate your suggestion and will think about it.

[ubonjoe]

35 minutes ago, BritTim said:

You do have one additional option. You could "move temporarily" into a hotel in Bangkok, and apply for the Non O visa at Chaengwattana immigration. You tell them that you are staying in a hotel temporarily while looking for a permanent place to live.

If did that he would have to apply for the extension in Bangkok. That is a requirement that the majority office will enforce.

[Peabody]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:16 PM, Lichiyado said:

"Sounds like that was desk 7 Nazi Jomtien, she pushes people to agents"

 

You got it!!! I'm not alone!

I tried to ask for clarification of one of the items that was on a list she shoved at me. She hissed "Can you read English?"

<deleted>

[Onerak]

17 minutes ago, Peabody said:

I tried to ask for clarification of one of the items that was on a list she shoved at me. She hissed "Can you read English?"

Seems like she has dealt with enough quality retirees in Thailand and also I have seen a few in Banks where they take up hours of their time for some simple thing asking questions after questions. It is like in old days in the US grocery checkout counters where an old lady wanted to use a check for payment and not sure how to use a check and had to ask the cashier.  Now I zip through the self checkout counters. That's also one of the reason I believe Thailand will never get rid of year-to-year extension for retirement and "wife extension". They will introduce other schemes like "wealthy retiree". It benefits all parties financially as well freedom from dealing with quality retirees. This forum is a monument of that. 

[Chiller]

Have to say I agree with the suggestion Ubonjoe made which is to apply for your Non Immigrant O Visa at The Thai Embassy In Vientiane. You have everything you need, you enjoyed spending a few days in Laos before and the actual Visa will only cost you 2000 baht. You can then extend of course after 60 days. 
You just need to make an appointment to attend the Consulate Office to submit your application and then you return 2 days later to collect your Visa.  

[Kwaibill]

On 11/2/2022 at 5:48 PM, scubascuba3 said:

She's got long history of giving farang earache, She gave me the same speech a few years ago

Yep. That's when I started doing border bounces every ninety days instead of dealing with Jomtien. Now I am married and living in Samut Prakan.
I had been under the impression since US embassy stopped issuing affidavits re: social security, pensions, etc. that bank book and statement showing the requisite monthly income was sufficient. and was told last year when asking that specifically that it was so. Skip forward a year (today) and it is not accepted at Samut Prakan immigration. The IO showed me the printout of the regs requiring an embassy affidavit, which is no longer available.
I do have a work around involving a 60-day extension to my current "permission to stay" which will allow two months seasoning of our 400,000 account, which I screwed up by mistakenly drawing it down under 400,000 for a week. I would be good by 18 Dec., but already scheduled for surgery during that time slot.
Another peculiarity is that the extension as stamped in my passport goes to Feb. 18, but they told me I must return a month earlier. My wife tried to explain the reason, but it made no sense to me. No matter, as I am perfectly fine with doing it in January, but I like to understand stuff. Any suggestions?

Finally, can I manage future marriage extensions at Savannakhét with less hassle about financial evidence? I miss my fave pizza restaurant and Lao Dark beer.????

[champers]

On 11/2/2022 at 5:04 PM, Lichiyado said:

Oh my. I've read so many stories about the futility of doing battle with immigration that I'm reluctant. I'm usually a nice guy so asking to see a super in a nice way wouldn't be a problem. But oh my goodness, what am I getting myself into? Gives me the heebie-jeebies, but I'm nearly certain that I'm right (as are you and UbonJoe) about this. And I do so like to be right!!!

 

Just got your edit Jack. Thanks for responding. Yes, I know immi has the upper hand and I'm already gearing up for another week in Laos if necessary. Wouldn't be the worst thing that ever happened to me.

Your mention of the 15 days I've already incorporated into my overall scheme, but thanks for the reminder. 

Decisions, decisions....fight or retreat.  Hmmmm....

 

Retreat. I paid 16k at desk 7 some 6 plus years ago, negotiated down from 20k. Think of it as a one-off admin fee spread over the rest of the years you stay here; your premature death notwithstanding.

[biervoormij]

@Lichiyado Is there any update on how you decide to address the issue? Did you go to an agent or plan to leave the country again? If you plan to leave the country are you just doing a border run or applying at an embassy or consulate in a neighboring country for a Non-O there?

[PattayaKevin]

Finally, can I manage future marriage extensions at Savannakhét with less hassle about financial evidence?

 

Yes Savannakhet doesn't require financials for non O marriage but ho Chi Minh now requires 6 months of bank statements.