U.S. military poised to return to Subic Bay, counter China's presence

[Saanim]

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

Let's take a look at the number of Chinese Nobel Prize winners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_Nobel_laureates  :

 

Is it worth of an answer? So, you measure the "capability" of people by a Nobel Prize? Wondering how the committee will browse thru the whole world (whether is able to), finding the best one of the year from the B7-8 world population? Perhaps, something like they found the best world peacemaker? (oh boy stop, dangerous towards an off-topic).

 

And how is the science Nobelist "capable" for the country while being shut off in his laboratory?  "Capable" (and rich) is only the one who will further develop his achievement (or sometimes the one who has suppressed it as we are seeing in the recent history) -  do we care what the Nobelist claims?

 

Whether the few Chinese Nobelists - expats - have been missed in their home country that has been "capable" to achieve such an enormous development within 30 years what no other country could do even in 200 years?  (There is no Nobel prize category for country development...)

 

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Whether the few Chinese Nobelists - expats - have been missed in their home country that has been "capable" to achieve such an enormous development within 30 years what no other country could do even in 200 years?  (There is no Nobel prize category for country development...)

 

It's pretty clear that the Japanese would rightly disagree with that.

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

China already took over Tibet and now they want Taiwan (by force). Furthermore, they used force to steal oil fields from Vietnam. And they have forcibly occupied islands belong to the Philippines. They have also attacked India in a border dispute. Not to mention the Uyghurs forcibly moved to slave labour camps. Additionally, they do nothing to deter NK because it suits them to have a divided Korea. China is far from a good world citizen.

I think that each of your statement could be relativised to another country unless not classified as whataboutism or off-topic. Better not to further debate it, especially about the oil fields...  

[Saanim]

56 minutes ago, FarAngMoh said:

America, on the other hand, allowed the Philippines to gain independence after decades as a U.S. territory.

Not to speak about other countries allowing their colonies to gain independence after centuries.  How generous...  

But how hypothetically is it connected to China? 

[rudi49jr]

6 minutes ago, Saanim said:

But how hypothetically is it connected to China?

China invaded Tibet. Do you see any signs that Tibet is about to get its independence back?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, bradiston said:

Agree. Israelis born outside Israel? Americans born outside America? 

 

2 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

I've noticed a whole load of irrelevant comments about Chinese being outside of China, and Chinese people winning Nobel prizes.
Okay, what's the difference between Europeans in Canada and Brazil, and, and Chinese in various Far East countries ?  Surely, it's the same thing ?

Lots of Europeans and Chinese leaving their home doesn't actually mean that they hate their home.

The Chinese living in Taiwan, the US, Thailand, etc. who were born there or chose to live there permanently are citizens of those countries, not China.

 

This started when I posted "Funny how the most capable Chinese people don't live in China.  Maybe they don't like the government."  Saanim took exception to that comment.  Yet it seems the minority of Chinese who chose to leave China, and the ethnic Chinese who never lived in China, have many more high achievers than the majority that live in China. 

 

I don't think the minority of Chinese who live outside of China are inherently superior to those that remain in mainland China.  I think they live in countries where they are allowed to excel.  That is why many of them, or their ancestors, left China. 

 

Assuming they will oppose the governments in the countries that allowed them to excel and support China's aggressive expansion and occupation of lands and seas it has no right to is nonsense. 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Is it worth of an answer? So, you measure the "capability" of people by a Nobel Prize? Wondering how the committee will browse thru the whole world (whether is able to), finding the best one of the year from the B7-8 world population? Perhaps, something like they found the best world peacemaker? (oh boy stop, dangerous towards an off-topic).

 

And how is the science Nobelist "capable" for the country while being shut off in his laboratory?  "Capable" (and rich) is only the one who will further develop his achievement (or sometimes the one who has suppressed it as we are seeing in the recent history) -  do we care what the Nobelist claims?

 

Whether the few Chinese Nobelists - expats - have been missed in their home country that has been "capable" to achieve such an enormous development within 30 years what no other country could do even in 200 years?  (There is no Nobel prize category for country development...)

 

You really need to work on your writing skills.  The only idea you succeeded in communicating successfully is that you are impressed by China's progress in the last 30 years.

 

Yes, China has made impressive advances in the last 30 years.  It has gone from backwards to middle-income developing status.  It did that by abandoning communism and copying the science, technology and manufacturing skills from more advanced countries.  However copying is not the same as innovating and catching up is not the same as taking the lead.

Edited November 26, 2022 by heybruce

[FarAngMoh]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

 

The Chinese living in Taiwan, the US, Thailand, etc. who were born there or chose to live there permanently are citizens of those countries, not China.

 

This started when I posted "Funny how the most capable Chinese people don't live in China.  Maybe they don't like the government."  Saanim took exception to that comment.  Yet it seems the minority of Chinese who chose to leave China, and the ethnic Chinese who never lived in China, have many more high achievers than the majority that live in China. 

 

I don't think the minority of Chinese who live outside of China are inherently superior to those that remain in mainland China.  I think they live in countries where they are allowed to excel.  That is why many of them, or their ancestors, left China. 

 

Assuming they will oppose the governments in the countries that allowed them to excel and support China's aggressive expansion and occupation of lands and seas it has no right to is nonsense. 

What is even more telling is the fact that most of the Chinese who emigrated from the mainland were not the cream of the crop, and yet today are the largest economic force in many countries, especially around Southeast Asia, despite being a small minority. Indonesia is a good example, but even the average Chinese in the US earns more than the average white person. 

[tonbridgebrit]

6 hours ago, ozimoron said:

China already took over Tibet and now they want Taiwan (by force). Furthermore, they used force to steal oil fields from Vietnam. And they have forcibly occupied islands belong to the Philippines. They have also attacked India in a border dispute. Not to mention the Uyghurs forcibly moved to slave labour camps. Additionally, they do nothing to deter NK because it suits them to have a divided Korea. China is far from a good world citizen.

And again, we see double standards (hypocrisy) or lack of knowledge.

China took over Tibet ?  And now they want Taiwan by force ?  Okay, Chiang Kai-Shek is the founding father of modern-day Taiwan. You do realise that he was also the recognised political head of mainland China for two decades prior to 1949 ?  Chiang Kai-Shek certainly recognised Tibet as part of China when he was leader of China. In other words, China recognised Tibet as part of China long before 1949.  And Chiang Kai-Shek's China came up with the nine dash line map in 1947, that's the map that both the Chinas are using to claim ownership of the South China Sea. Yes, todays Taiwan (Republic of China) is claiming ownership of the South China Sea, and Peoples Republic of China also claims the South China Sea. CSK went to Taiwan and founded todays Taiwan.

China is having a border dispute with India ?  Well, China and India are both backing Russia in the Russia against Ukraine war. They're both buying Russia's oil. India is not actually a friend of America/Europe.

Korea ?  The USA has a large military presence in South Korea. Why is that ?  Supposedly, to stop North Korea invading South Korea. And the real reason ?  The US government likes to have military bases dotted across the world. If or when World War Three breaks out, America can use it's bases in South Korea and Okinawa to launch it's big attack/invasion on China.

As for oil, China didn't send soldiers into Vietnam to get oil. A big world power did actually send soldiers to Iraq in 2003, and it was mainly about oil. But the excuse of Saddam being a danger and threat to America and Europe was trotted out to the newspapers.

 

[tonbridgebrit]

7 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

China has no desire to invade any country nor to force regime change, unlike America. That’s why more countries globally are in favour of China.

 

7 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

That is indeed the official CCP party line. Fortunately, not many outside of China buy into that obvious BS.

But the point is there.
Has China actually sent soldiers to foreign countries ? Well, no. And if so, it's been on a far smaller scale than what the US government has done.

America actually sent soldiers to Iraq. America went and destroyed the Gaddafi regime in Libya. And looking back into history, America sent soldiers to Vietnam. And America armed the Contras in Nicaragua. Washington has done far more than Beijing. Surely, we can all see that.

[Scott]

A few off-topic posts and replies have been removed.  Stay on topic, which is about the US Military return to Subic Bay.  

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

The US Navy ships have been docking in Subic for many years now. I believe the photo shown is not of the old Subic base but of the shipyard the Koreans had. There was rumors awhile back of the US using the facility for ship vessel repairs (VR) Right now the Navy support ships use S'pore dry docks (Sembawang) for repairs. It would be a win win for both the local economy and the sailors.

[tonbridgebrit]

Okay, the US military are heading back into Subic Bay. Now, I don't know what the place looked like, when the US was previously there.

And what did it look like ?  Was there an area near the base, that provided services for the military staff ?  As in, lots of bars, nightclubs, discoteques, massage parlours, eating places, dating agencies, etc, etc ?   And when America heads back into Subic Bay, will those bars and nightclubs come back ?


See, I've been to Pattaya many times, and off-course, there's a huge number of bars and nightclubs in Pattaya. But Pattaya services men who are civilians, so-called 'sex tourists' , men who are on holiday in Thailand, they're not soldiers. And I reckon Pattaya is, well, okay.
But what about Subic Bay ?  I just feel that, a large area, full of night-time entertainment places, near a foreign military base, it just doesn't look or feel the same as Pattaya or Phuket.    ????

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by tonbridgebrit

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

The US Navy ships have been docking in Subic for many years now. I believe the photo shown is not of the old Subic base but of the shipyard the Koreans had. There was rumors awhile back of the US using the facility for ship vessel repairs (VR) Right now the Navy support ships use S'pore dry docks (Sembawang) for repairs. It would be a win win for both the local economy and the sailors.

Yes, it the old Hanjin ship building yard. Hanjin went bust. The old US Navy docks are on the opposite side of the bay.

[EVENKEEL]

31 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Okay, the US military are heading back into Subic Bay. Now, I don't know what the place looked like, when the US was previously there.

And what did it look like ?  Was there an area near the base, that provided services for the military staff ?  As in, lots of bars, nightclubs, discoteques, massage parlours, eating places, dating agencies, etc, etc ?   And when America heads back into Subic Bay, will those bars and nightclubs come back ?


See, I've been to Pattaya many times, and off-course, there's a huge number of bars and nightclubs in Pattaya. But Pattaya services men who are civilians, so-called 'sex tourists' , men who are on holiday in Thailand, they're not soldiers. And I reckon Pattaya is, well, okay.
But what about Subic Bay ?  I just feel that, a large area, full of night-time entertainment places, near a foreign military base, it just doesn't look or feel the same as Pattaya or Phuket.    ????

 

Back in the days, as soon as you left the main gate crossed over S#it River you had Magsaysay St which was solid bars, massage and restaurants. Countless clubs with live bands, anything from Zepplin to country music with go go girls in bikinis and boots dancing on the edges of bandstand. Back then you had Marshall Law so all sailors off the streets by 2400.

 

That entertainment part is all gone in Olongapo, there's still some joints but nothing at all like before. Now Barrio Barreto is the go to place a few minutes down the road. But even that is the tiniest shadow of what Magsaysay used to be.

 

The old Base will not return as before, the Hanjin shipyard nearby (as stated before) is what may be made available to the USN and it's support fleet. 

[Saanim]

14 hours ago, heybruce said:

Yes, China has made impressive advances in the last 30 years.  It has gone from backwards to middle-income developing status.  It did that by abandoning communism and copying the science, technology and manufacturing skills from more advanced countries.  However copying is not the same as innovating and catching up is not the same as taking the lead.

Why - instead of waiting on supplying ships - the others too do not copy their manufacturing skills? And is it really imperative for anybody to take the lead? 

[metisdead]

Some more off topic posts and the replies have been removed.

[tonbridgebrit]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Back in the days, as soon as you left the main gate crossed over S#it River you had Magsaysay St which was solid bars, massage and restaurants. Countless clubs with live bands, anything from Zepplin to country music with go go girls in bikinis and boots dancing on the edges of bandstand. Back then you had Marshall Law so all sailors off the streets by 2400.

 

That entertainment part is all gone in Olongapo, there's still some joints but nothing at all like before. Now Barrio Barreto is the go to place a few minutes down the road. But even that is the tiniest shadow of what Magsaysay used to be.

 

The old Base will not return as before, the Hanjin shipyard nearby (as stated before) is what may be made available to the USN and it's support fleet. 

Thanks for putting this post up, I'm sure lots of men will look back at the time, and have fond memories.  Off-course, I don't criticise military staff for constantly trying to contact local women. And local women servicing  US military staff were there on their free will, they was earning good money.
We're all men, we're all interested in beer and women.

Yes, if the military base does come back, the US government might not allow a large area full of bars, nightclubs, massage parlours, etc near the base.  The media and it's portrayal of the base will be regarded as important. The PR (public relations) will be looked at closely by the US military leadership.  War is not just about the fighting itself.  The PR war is regarded as being almost as important. But America didn't fully realise that during the Vietnam War.

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

 

But the point is there.
Has China actually sent soldiers to foreign countries ? Well, no. And if so, it's been on a far smaller scale than what the US government has done.

America actually sent soldiers to Iraq. America went and destroyed the Gaddafi regime in Libya. And looking back into history, America sent soldiers to Vietnam. And America armed the Contras in Nicaragua. Washington has done far more than Beijing. Surely, we can all see that.

China is claiming international waters and territorial waters of the Philippines and other countries, and turning reefs into islands with military bases on them.  That's why the Philippines is allowing the US Navy to return to Subic.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Saanim said:

Why - instead of waiting on supplying ships - the others too do not copy their manufacturing skills? And is it really imperative for anybody to take the lead? 

I have no idea what you are asking in your first question.

 

Regarding your second question, being the leader in technology, economic development, and size of economy has many advantages for the country in the lead position.  That is why China is pursuing it.

[metisdead]

An off topic post trolling about Cuba and a reply has been removed.

 

Some posts and replies that were running off topic have been removed.

[billd766]

6 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

Most colonies had to 'struggle' to be 'allowed' to gain independence.  BTW, Philippines was a territory of USA for 48 years.

BTW the Philippines was a colony of Spain from 1571 to 1898 when the Spanish ceded it to the USA in 1898.

 

The arrival of Ferdinand Magellan, a Portuguese explorer leading a fleet for Spain, marked the beginning of Spanish colonization. In 1543, Spanish explorer Ruy López de Villalobos named the archipelago Las Islas Filipinas in honor of Philip II of Spain. Spanish settlement through Mexico, beginning in 1565, led to the Philippines becoming ruled by the Spanish Empire for more than 300 years. During this time, Catholicism became the dominant religion, and Manila became the western hub of trans-Pacific trade

 

If you are going to tell the story, then tell the whole story or provide a link for posters to read if they wish.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines#Early_states_(900–1565)