Ukraine war: Zelensky's visit shows neither Ukraine nor US want peace, Russia says

[Saanim]

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

From your source:

 

"The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”"

 

So maybe Russia was led to believe that NATO would not expand east, and maybe the west was led to believe that Russia would not threaten its neighbors.

 

The fact remains that the only countries that want to join NATO are the ones with legitimate fears of Russian aggression.

"My" source is a source of government about a historical agreement - and high-principle assurances - how the foolish Gorbachev "was led to believe" that the cold war is over, his army will go home - perhaps also the other huge army of the friends will go home (bring our boys home) - why to keep them there?    

 

"Legitimate fears of of Russian aggression"? While the Russian army go home with a tail between their legs? 

 

Your way of twisted thinking about this act - and of those who applauded you - is really amazing (politely said)... 

[Bkk Brian]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

From your source:

 

"The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”"

 

So maybe Russia was led to believe that NATO would not expand east, and maybe the west was led to believe that Russia would not threaten its neighbors.

 

The fact remains that the only countries that want to join NATO are the ones with legitimate fears of Russian aggression.

Agree, in addition these docs are not new, they've been online since 2017 and whats pretty clear to me and subsequent articles is that there was no written agreements either side, just discussions.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

"My" source is a source of government about a historical agreement - and high-principle assurances - how the foolish Gorbachev "was led to believe" that the cold war is over, his army will go home - perhaps also the other huge army of the friends will go home (bring our boys home) - why to keep them there?    

 

"Legitimate fears of of Russian aggression"? While the Russian army go home with a tail between their legs? 

 

Your way of twisted thinking about this act - and of those who applauded you - is really amazing (politely said)... 

It's difficult to reply to an incoherent post.

 

Please clarify:  Do you think that by quoting a paragraph from your source I somehow belittled it?  Do you think that Russia has not threatened any of neighbors since the dissolution of the Soviet Union?  What twisted logical conclusions are you accusing me of making?

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Agree, in addition these docs are not new, they've been online since 2017 and whats pretty clear to me and subsequent articles is that there was no written agreements either side, just discussions.

1. Does it change anything on the promises 30 years ago that the docs are online since 2017?

2. "was led to believe" is a way of discussion? Or it's a way to believe the honest of one's promise? 

3. Whether an agreement was written and signed by a golden pen, would it change anything?  Anybody so naive to believe it? Weren't the Minsk agreements signed?      

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Saanim said:

1. Does it change anything on the promises 30 years ago that the docs are online since 2017?

2. "was led to believe" is a way of discussion? Or it's a way to believe the honest of one's promise? 

3. Whether an agreement was written and signed by a golden pen, would it change anything?  Anybody so naive to believe it? Weren't the Minsk agreements signed?      

Thanks so no written agreement then

[Saanim]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Thanks so no written agreement then

...therefore, no obligation for sticking to a promise (being led to believe it).  

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, Saanim said:

...therefore, no obligation for sticking to a promise (being led to believe it).  

Was that a signed promise? No written agreements no signed promises. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Saanim]

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Was that a signed promise? No written agreements no signed promises. 

^A frank confession how to consider the honesty of politicians dealing with matters of lives of nations...

Even at a horse market the deal is completed by shake hand.  (wondering whether you pay people serving you only when they have got a signed promise from you...)  

[heybruce]

44 minutes ago, Saanim said:

...therefore, no obligation for sticking to a promise (being led to believe it).  

True.  Russia led everyone to believe it would be content within its post-Soviet Union borders and leave its neighbors in peace.  Obviously Putin felt no obligation to to do that.

[placeholder]

20 minutes ago, Saanim said:

^A frank confession how to consider the honesty of politicians dealing with matters of lives of nations...

Even at a horse market the deal is completed by shake hand.  (wondering whether you pay people serving you only when they have got a signed promise from you...)  

"Even at a horse market"? Really? You think that the case for a handshake is stronger when it comes to complicated issues than it is for simple basic transaction? Living in Oppositeworld much?

[Bkk Brian]

30 minutes ago, Saanim said:

^A frank confession how to consider the honesty of politicians dealing with matters of lives of nations...

Even at a horse market the deal is completed by shake hand.  (wondering whether you pay people serving you only when they have got a signed promise from you...)  

"A frank confession how to consider the honesty of politicians dealing with matters of lives of nations"

 

Indeed, if Putin's mouth is open, it means he's lying. No we are not going to invade Ukraine............thousands of civilians dead, rapes and murders of women and children. Yea but its ok, Putin still says this is not a war.

 

I somehow missed the part where in the expansion of NATO because the applicants felt they needed protection from Russia, it invaded a sovereign country and massacred 1000s of civilians committing endless documented war crimes.

[Rimmer]

A blatent Troll post denying Putin ever wanted to illegally invade Ukraine has been removed, also replies. 

[Saanim]

8 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

"A frank confession how to consider the honesty of politicians dealing with matters of lives of nations"

 

Indeed, if Putin's mouth is open, it means he's lying. No we are not going to invade Ukraine............thousands of civilians dead, rapes and murders of women and children. Yea but its ok, Putin still says this is not a war.

 

I somehow missed the part where in the expansion of NATO because the applicants felt they needed protection from Russia, it invaded a sovereign country and massacred 1000s of civilians committing endless documented war crimes.

Seeing that something got lost here. The problem is that some links here eagerly presented show not the real quote but a media article where the quote was edited somehow to be in line with the official narrative. And because of no access to other information that "fact" is taken for granted. 

 

BTW, something what you do eagerly claim - even the official narrative does not do.   

 

There is an official report of OSCE from the very date of 22nd February - still can be found - presenting a surprising unusual increase of atrocities in Donbass areas exactly in the days of the Russian military exercise.  So, was there anybody else in a better position than OSCE to properly assess the situation?  Unfortunately, after this report the OSCE monitoring function has been terminated.   

[Bkk Brian]

36 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Seeing that something got lost here. The problem is that some links here eagerly presented show not the real quote but a media article where the quote was edited somehow to be in line with the official narrative. And because of no access to other information that "fact" is taken for granted. 

 

BTW, something what you do eagerly claim - even the official narrative does not do.   

 

There is an official report of OSCE from the very date of 22nd February - still can be found - presenting a surprising unusual increase of atrocities in Donbass areas exactly in the days of the Russian military exercise.  So, was there anybody else in a better position than OSCE to properly assess the situation?  Unfortunately, after this report the OSCE monitoring function has been terminated.   

There is only one official narrative and now part of history. Russia invaded Ukraine after building up a huge military force on its borders on the pretext it was a military drills as stated by Putin. He lied, an illegal invasion took place on a sovereign country. The only atrocities that happened since then were the first of many war crimes committed by Russia with Bucha being the first largest one uncovered.

 

The OSCE report from that 22nd Feb does not record any atrocities, only cease fire violations from both government and occupied territories:

 

Enough of your desperation to change history.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[ozimoron]

Reporter walks through Russia's scheme to target Ukraine along with Donald Trump's help

 

MSNBC's Nicolle Wallace dedicated her Boxing Day show to the shocking revelations from this year that Russia's Vladimir Putin was working with Donald Trump's allies because he thought he could take pieces of eastern Ukraine, specifically Mariupol, without waging his invasion.

 

Writing before the mid-term election, New York Times reporter Jim Rutenberg explained that hundreds of documents he's sifted through, in addition to former Robert Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann's details, revealed enough to show what Putin was after when he worked to swing the 2016 election for Trump.

 

It prompted Wallace to wonder if the Manafort pardon was still part of all of that.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-russia-putin-ukraine/?traffic_source=Connatix

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Reporter walks through Russia's scheme to target Ukraine along with Donald Trump's help

 

MSNBC's Nicolle Wallace dedicated her Boxing Day show to the shocking revelations from this year that Russia's Vladimir Putin was working with Donald Trump's allies because he thought he could take pieces of eastern Ukraine, specifically Mariupol, without waging his invasion.

 

Writing before the mid-term election, New York Times reporter Jim Rutenberg explained that hundreds of documents he's sifted through, in addition to former Robert Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann's details, revealed enough to show what Putin was after when he worked to swing the 2016 election for Trump.

 

It prompted Wallace to wonder if the Manafort pardon was still part of all of that.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-russia-putin-ukraine/?traffic_source=Connatix

This should not surprise anyone that has been paying attention. 

[Tug]

4 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Reporter walks through Russia's scheme to target Ukraine along with Donald Trump's help

 

MSNBC's Nicolle Wallace dedicated her Boxing Day show to the shocking revelations from this year that Russia's Vladimir Putin was working with Donald Trump's allies because he thought he could take pieces of eastern Ukraine, specifically Mariupol, without waging his invasion.

 

Writing before the mid-term election, New York Times reporter Jim Rutenberg explained that hundreds of documents he's sifted through, in addition to former Robert Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann's details, revealed enough to show what Putin was after when he worked to swing the 2016 election for Trump.

 

It prompted Wallace to wonder if the Manafort pardon was still part of all of that.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-russia-putin-ukraine/?traffic_source=Connatix

Guess old Putin is serious about having more ice free access to the ocean I wouldent be a bit surprised if it is one of the major reasons he was foolish enough to try this along with his mistaken belief that his man trump had emasculated nato major blunder imo

[Saanim]

12 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The OSCE report from that 22nd Feb does not record any atrocities, only cease fire violations from both government and occupied territories:

Incredible what lies are to read here. No atrocities? 

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512872

 

And here for instance one OSCE report from 2016:

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Incredible what lies are to read here. No atrocities? 

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512872

 

And here for instance one OSCE report from 2016:

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

Last warning to stop editing and deleting my posts leaving them out of context.

 

I repeat, NO atrocities recorded on the 22nd Feb only cease fire violations as I had already stated in my post if you had left it intact.

 

Did those violations increase in the days running up to the illegal invasion. Yep indeed, Russia February 21: Russian President Vladimir Putin orders troops into the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk, and recognises them as independent states.

 

His full scale invasion was on the 24th Feb.

 

Previous to this is a different topic entirely and one I suggest has been covered multiple times. So as not to derail this thread I will not be addressing it aside to post this data on civilian deaths from official UN sources

 

pdf download