2023 Toyota Yaris Ativ vs Honda City

[loginwith]

Hi motor experts!

 

Both are good enough looking cars in my opinion, but I was wondering about the "under the hood stuff". What are the "pros and cons"?.

 

Obviously the Honda City looks more powerful on paper. 122hp. But it has a three cylinder engine. The Yaris has a smoother four cylinder engine, but only 92hp.

 

At low rpm three cylinder engines are louder (more vibrating) than four cylinder engines, I read. Is that still a problem nowadays?

 

And what about long term durability/reliability of the turbo charged engine compared to the "regular" engine in the Yaris?

 

What are your thoughts? Are they any other "pros and cons"?

 

[CharlieH]

I have both, the Honda City is by far the superior vehicle. Quieter and so easy on any journey anywhere. Yaris (non turbo) great run around town etc and will cope with longer trips but nowhere near as easy as the Honda does. 

[problemfarang]

in my opinion Toyota is better than Honda. Better service and also quality. i have friends who own Honda's and they all complain after few years. 

 

I was thinking buying a Toyota but then went to Mazda and bought mazda cx30. its great car to drive and prices are almost same. For safety and many other reasons Mazda cx30 is far better than both of others. I suggest you to take a look at mazda before decide. check mazda 3 also. its very sporty. Only bad thing about cx30 is its not AWD but front. its very luxury also and tbh looks great. But its very 'fragile' it can scratch super easy (both outside and interior). service is not that expensive. Also it doesnt have touch screen which makes things little bit hard at first. I have it for 1.5 year now and im so much enjoying driving it.

can use various of fuel; e20, e85, 95 and i think something 10 too. i suggest e20 or 95. 95 makes engine so nice

 

PS: sport mode makes cx30 a monster. loving it

[brianburi]

https://paultan.org/2022/08/09/2023-toyota-vios-debuts-in-thailand/

 

OP is asking about the new Yaris Ativ which is replacing the Vios here.

I have the old model bought in 2018, good cheap motor to run and get serviced anywhere, unlike Honda's

[Photoguy21]

Go for the Honda City. Very reliable and an overall great buy.

[QballQ]

16 hours ago, brianburi said:

https://paultan.org/2022/08/09/2023-toyota-vios-debuts-in-thailand/

 

OP is asking about the new Yaris Ativ which is replacing the Vios here.

I have the old model bought in 2018, good cheap motor to run and get serviced anywhere, unlike Honda's

I'm sure the new yaris is meant to be 105bhp from the same engine. 

 

I have the 2018 model too. It is a decent run around, a little underpowered, but holds motorway speeds fine.

[KhunLA]

https://www.zigwheels.co.th/en/compare-cars

[Liverpool Lou]

19 hours ago, Photoguy21 said:

Go for the Honda City. Very reliable and an overall great buy.

...or, go for the Toyota Yaris Ativ.  Very reliable and an overall great buy.

[DavisH]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:08 AM, QballQ said:

I'm sure the new yaris is meant to be 105bhp from the same engine. 

 

I have the 2018 model too. It is a decent run around, a little underpowered, but holds motorway speeds fine.

No its not 105hp. It's 94hp. 

 

[DavisH]

My wife has a city turbo. It's quite fast and could do with a brake/pad upgrade. Hard acceleration and you will ehar the 3 cylinder thrum. But its not that annoying. But higher speeds its fairly quiet. It could do with more insulation though, as sound creeps into the cabin. That could be done at an audio shop. 

 

We got the city in 10 days from booking to delivery. It was the only honda that could be delivered quickly...the others were waiting due to chip shortages.

 

I've not seen any reports in city facebook pages about problems with the turbo/gearbox. The main complaint I've seen is the paint chippign easily from stones. Early cars had small rust problems here and there. I haven't seen that on my car. 

 

I've not driven the ativ so can't comment on it. By reports, it has more gadets so ma represent better value for money for some people. But the acceleration, as one would expect, lags behind the city. The brakes are btter on the ativ, as it has rear disc (unless one gets the city hev)

[LosLobo]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:27 PM, KhunLA said:

https://www.zigwheels.co.th/en/compare-cars

Site doesn't have current Yaris models.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, LosLobo said:

Site doesn't have current Yaris models.

The info can't be that hard to find.   Though anyone asking on a forum, how to spend more than a few 100k baht on a new car ... guessing research isn't their forte'.

 

Find the info, take them both for a test drive, decide, or if need more time, rent each for week, and get more hands on.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

Both companies, cars, have their pros & cons, and everyone's driving style is a bit different, so stranger's input can be a bit useless.   Especially for a possible, expensive investment.

 

I wouldn't buy either, and for the same price, get MG EP Plus, or ZS.  Maybe even the new MG4 or another brand.   But that's me, options abound outside the ICE market.

 

Seems the OP's priority is 'power' and 'long term reliability', in which case, electric motors will provide more of both.   

 

Think outside the ICE box ... just a thought.  Take an EV for a test drive, trust me, you won't be buying an ICE again afterwards, if power is what you want.  Instant torque, none of that Yaris @ 4400rpm BS.

[loginwith]

On 1/31/2023 at 4:28 PM, DavisH said:

 It's quite fast and could do with a brake/pad upgrade.

 

Hard acceleration and you will ehar the 3 cylinder thrum. But its not that annoying. But higher speeds its fairly quiet. It could do with more insulation though, as sound creeps into the cabin. That could be done at an audio shop. 

 

I've not seen any reports in city facebook pages about problems with the turbo/gearbox.

 

The brakes are btter on the ativ, as it has rear disc (unless one gets the city hev)

Thanks for this detailed report (and thanks to the others as well).

 

Many like the Honda City, I guess, because the previous generation has that smooth four cylinder 1.5l engine.

 

I will definitely test drive both cars. (Still waiting for a callback ...)

[DavisH]

7 hours ago, loginwith said:

Thanks for this detailed report (and thanks to the others as well).

 

Many like the Honda City, I guess, because the previous generation has that smooth four cylinder 1.5l engine.

 

I will definitely test drive both cars. (Still waiting for a callback ...)

I suspect the queue (for delievery) may be quite long for the yaris. Normally you will need to make a booking for a test drive. Fortunately, we got a test drive when we took our crv for a service. There was a queue, but the first customer hadn't arrived at that time. Aside from delivery time, also consider what discounts there are, interest rates, and freebies. I also recommend getting a cermaic coating and also under coating, whatever you get. Our dealer does both of them when we get the service (same for the crv). 

[HauptmannUK]

Which car is best for you depends on how you drive it and how long you intend to keep it.

The first thing to understand about the City is that is uses the Honda P10A engine - a turbo'd three cylinder unit. The interesting thing about this engine is that its not really a Honda engine....  Let me explain..

 

From the point of view of thermodynamics and emissions a cylinder capacity of around 330cc is optimum.  Also a three cylinder engine has 3/4 the weight and size, and fewer parts, than a four cylinder engine. So for a 1.0 litre engine, three cylinders   make a lot of sense. There are problems with out of balance vibrations and crankshaft torsional vibration, but these can be moderated with counterweights on the flywheel and a TV damper as part of the front pulley.  There are actually lots of really good 3-cyl engines such as Mitsubishi's 3A9, Suzuki K series, Toyota/Daihatsu 1KR series. These are all really good engines, with chain-driven cams, that will cover huge mileages if looked after.  Being small and light they are ideal for city cars.

 

Then of course some bright spark realises that by adding a turbo you can get a lot more power out of this design and use them in a heavier vehicle. Typically a naturally-aspirated petrol engine will deliver 70-80bhp per litre of capacity. Bolt on a turbo and that jumps to as much as 140bhp per litre. Of course you don't get something for nothing so in addition to using more fuel the engine is under far more stress.  So the engine will generally wear out quicker.

Anyway, the car manufacturers liked the idea of 'turbo-triples' - compact and cheap to make, relatively low emissions etc...   Lots of these engines came onto the market - Ford Ecoboost, Renault/Nissan, PSA PureTech, GM/MG SGE, BMW B38..

 

Honda wanted a turbo-triple but they didn't want go to the huge expense of designing a completely new engine. Their solution was to take the block of their old P-series engine (a 658cc engine introduced over 20 years ago for use in Japanese Kei cars) and then hand it over to a German engineering consultancy (FEV) with a brief to develop it into a one litre turbo triple.

FEV were able to do this. But, crucially, they made the error of adopting 'Belt in Oil' (BIO) to drive the cam.

BIO was a technology touted by drive belt suppliers such as Gates that used a polymer belt running 'inside' the engine - a 'wet belt'.  This was claimed to give the advantages of both a belt and a chain - and last the life of the engine.

Unfortunately things didn't turn out that way. Belts started shedding fibres, blocking oilways, failing early, causing engine damage. So then manufacturers had to set a service interval on the belts. For Ford it was 8 years or 100k miles. For Honda it is 5 or 6 years (seems to depend on market).  The belts were never designed to be serviced, so its a expensive and complex job.  In the UK, independent repairers (such as my family's company) will not generally change BIO. We refer customers to the Honda dealer. Honda UK specify a price of about GBP1500 (฿60000) for a belt change.

Many Honda 1.0T engines have failed in the UK/EU at relatively low mileages due to belt deterioration. Honda mostly supplied new engines under warranty. Couple of years ago Honda redesigned the belt pulley and guides......the jury is out on that. AFAIK the 1.0T engine has been dropped in UK/EU.  BTW the Honda 1.5T engine is completely different to the 1.0T.

My advice to any car buyer is to avoid any turbo-triple engine if you intend to keep the car much beyond its warranty period. Also avoid anything with BIO.

It was such a shame that Honda didn't carry over the 1.5 L-series (use in e.g. the old Jazz) - that was a great engine and hugely reliable.

For someone intending to keep a car for many years then I'd definitely go for the Yaris Ativ - sure it'll be slower, but the engine is tough and well proven and the Toyota/Aisin CVT is about as good and reliable as CVTs get.

[ozimoron]

I've owned a 2014 Honda City since new and driven it across Australia in the summer. While it's a little under powered for that type of use it has been very reliable.

[HauptmannUK]

13 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I've owned a 2014 Honda City since new and driven it across Australia in the summer. While it's a little under powered for that type of use it has been very reliable.

That would be a 6th generation City with the 1.5 litre L-series engine. They are hugely reliable.  The OP is asking about the latest (7th gen?) which is a completely different animal.

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, HauptmannUK said:

That would be a 6th generation City with the 1.5 litre L-series engine. They are hugely reliable.  The OP is asking about the latest (7th gen?) which is a completely different animal.

Yes it is. I was surprised to see the claim that it was a 3 cylinder.

[loginwith]

9 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

 

 

 

But, crucially, they made the error of adopting 'Belt in Oil' (BIO) to drive the cam.

 

My advice to any car buyer is to avoid any turbo-triple engine if you intend to keep the car much beyond its warranty period. Also avoid anything with BIO.

 

Thanks for this great answer. You confirmed my concerns. There is a lot of info on Malaysian websites about  the "1.5 vs 1.0 turbo" topic, because Malaysia did not get the turbo version. And some reviewers wrote basically that the 1.5 liter engine was the better choice (for the reasons you mentioned).

 

So I guess the Yaris is the better choice (for me).

 

PS

 

The Yaris has a "timing chain" (just in case anybody was wondering).

 

[HauptmannUK]

19 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Yes it is. I was surprised to see the claim that it was a 3 cylinder.

The latest City uses the P10-series 3-cylinder engine. 

[DavisH]

On 2/4/2023 at 2:49 AM, HauptmannUK said:

Honda UK specify a price of about GBP1500 (฿60000) for a belt change.

I've seen these ridiculous prices. Most of it is labour charges. In Thailand the timing belt should be replaced every 100K kms (so cetrainly Honda TH recognises it should be replaced). The belt is 1040 baht. Total service charge at 200K kms is 11153 baht and 8961 baht at 100k kms. Nearly 5K is for labour so its a faily big job to do. 

[HauptmannUK]

13 hours ago, DavisH said:

I've seen these ridiculous prices. Most of it is labour charges. In Thailand the timing belt should be replaced every 100K kms (so cetrainly Honda TH recognises it should be replaced). The belt is 1040 baht. Total service charge at 200K kms is 11153 baht and 8961 baht at 100k kms. Nearly 5K is for labour so its a faily big job to do. 

Something not right about those figures. I doubt you will buy a genuine Honda timing belt for any Honda car anywhere for ฿1040 - possibly you could get a Chinese copy at that price but you'd be insane to use anything other than OE..  The belt is  #14400-5AY-H01 and about GBP70 in UK. My experience is that genuine Honda parts are similar pre-tax prices in different countries (they would have to be otherwise you'd end up with a huge grey market in parts). The guide pulley and its nut are around GBP150.  Plus there are various other parts you need to do the job including gaskets and various fasteners which need to be replaced. Add in a required oil and filter change and you are looking at close to GBP400 in materials - about ฿16000. 

Its a hell of a job to do. About 8 hours.

Stupid design.

[In the jungle]

20 minutes ago, HauptmannUK said:

Something not right about those figures. I doubt you will buy a genuine Honda timing belt for any Honda car anywhere for ฿1040 - possibly you could get a Chinese copy at that price but you'd be insane to use anything other than OE..  The belt is  #14400-5AY-H01 and about GBP70 in UK. My experience is that genuine Honda parts are similar pre-tax prices in different countries (they would have to be otherwise you'd end up with a huge grey market in parts). The guide pulley and its nut are around GBP150.  Plus there are various other parts you need to do the job including gaskets and various fasteners which need to be replaced. Add in a required oil and filter change and you are looking at close to GBP400 in materials - about ฿16000. 

Its a hell of a job to do. About 8 hours.

Stupid design.

My experience, albeit with a Honda motorcycle, is different.

 

In the UK I own a Thai manufactured Honda motorcycle.  Wherever possible I buy parts for it in Thailand as in the UK the parts are four to five times the Thai price.  There is, in fact, a grey market for parts for this model.  On E bay there are numerous people selling service parts.

 

Of course with a motorcycle it is much easier to hand carry parts from A to B.  I would not consider hand carrying car parts such as a clutch, drive shaft or exhaust system.

[DavisH]

4 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

Something not right about those figures. I doubt you will buy a genuine Honda timing belt for any Honda car anywhere for ฿1040 - possibly you could get a Chinese copy at that price but you'd be insane to use anything other than OE..  The belt is  #14400-5AY-H01 and about GBP70 in UK. My experience is that genuine Honda parts are similar pre-tax prices in different countries (they would have to be otherwise you'd end up with a huge grey market in parts). The guide pulley and its nut are around GBP150.  Plus there are various other parts you need to do the job including gaskets and various fasteners which need to be replaced. Add in a required oil and filter change and you are looking at close to GBP400 in materials - about ฿16000. 

Its a hell of a job to do. About 8 hours.

Stupid design.

The part you quote is for the civic 1.0 turbo. It has a different engine. Code. But is the timing belt different? I can't seem to find the part code for the P10A6. The prices I quoted are from the service schedule on the Honda website. I would be shocked if you use non genuine parts from China. 

[SiSePuede419]

It depends. ????

 

How many minutes/km are you going to drive it each way on your typical day to day drive in it?

 

If the answer is "not long" and "not far" then there's one reason to think twice about getting a Honda with a 1.5 liter turbo...

 

"Oil dilution" in a car where the engine never warms up fully.

https://vehiclefreak.com/did-honda-fix-the-turbo-engine-problems-of-2020-and-2021/

 

Like the article explains every car suffers from oil dilution if the engine isn't warmed up fully.  My last job was only 13 km away and it only took 10-15 minutes each way. 

 

Driving a 6 cylinder Toyota 4WD FJ Cruiser got 6.3 km/l.  But when I drove it on trips of 30-45 minutes and maybe 75-100km, I got 9.4 km/l, a big improvement.

 

When the engine isn't warmed up, all cars get lower fuel economy.

 

If you don't do longer drives, I'd recommend the Toyota Yaris Ativ.  It still has a normal aspirated engine that can better handle oil dilution issues.

 

I initially was attracted to the Honda City, but was concerned about the reliability of a turbo powerplant.

 

Then I started considering used Citys, 2017-2018 that were before they started putting only turbos.

 

But those cars hold their value in Thailand even though they have 50-100,000 kms on the car and I would only save about ฿100,000 and would have to take a chance the mileage wasn't altered or it was flooded in Bangkok or involved in an accident that was covered up with good quality body repair with well matched paint on any repairs.

 

So, decided to get a new 2023 model with 0km in it.

 

Already put down a ฿3000 deposit for one and it's anticipated to take 3-6 months for the dealer to get one, that's how popular they are.

 

There's a simple reason for that...

 

Cost.

 

2023 Honda City SV

฿665,000

2023 Toyota Yaris Ativ Smart ฿594,000

 

So, right off the start you're saving ฿70,000.

 

And at the Toyota dealership I went to they offer a ฿15,000 discount if you pay cash.  Maybe Honda will do the same...?

 

I owned a Gen 2 Yaris Hatchback and it had a very basic look and feel. It also had a weird center console instrument cluster, which is different.

 

But Thailand's Yaris ATIV is a Gen 4 Yaris that's a 2nd Gen ATIV that's undergone a major style and equipment refresh. 

 

The boot (trunk) is about 3 times bigger than Gen 2.  Also it now has a "low to the ground" more sporty feel (only appearance, didn't test drive it).

 

I'm sure the Turbo has a more peppy response when you step on it.  I  test drove a 2017 Mini which had a Turbo engine made by BMW and it was very peppy.

 

But I don't need that.  I'm not driving on a race track, 555.  Where I drive there's so many traffic lights you don't need to go abovw 80km/hour because you're just going to have to stop at the next traffic light.

 

The new Yaris ATIV is the leader in Eco cars in Thailand and they're planning on exporting it to 35 countries.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/auto/review/2447852/toyota-eyes-top-thai-spot

 

Top of the class.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/auto/review/2368780/top-of-the-class

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DavisH]

46 minutes ago, SiSePuede419 said:

It depends. ????

 

How many minutes/km are you going to drive it each way on your typical day to day drive in it?

 

If the answer is "not long" and "not far" then there's one reason to think twice about getting a Honda with a 1.5 liter turbo...

 

"Oil dilution" in a car where the engine never warms up fully.

https://vehiclefreak.com/did-honda-fix-the-turbo-engine-problems-of-2020-and-2021/

 

Like the article explains every car suffers from oil dilution if the engine isn't warmed up fully.  My last job was only 13 km away and it only took 10-15 minutes each way. 

 

Driving a 6 cylinder Toyota 4WD FJ Cruiser got 6.3 km/l.  But when I drove it on trips of 30-45 minutes and maybe 75-100km, I got 9.4 km/l, a big improvement.

 

When the engine isn't warmed up, all cars get lower fuel economy.

 

If you don't do longer drives, I'd recommend the Toyota Yaris Ativ.  It still has a normal aspirated engine that can better handle oil dilution issues.

 

I initially was attracted to the Honda City, but was concerned about the reliability of a turbo powerplant.

 

Then I started considering used Citys, 2017-2018 that were before they started putting only turbos.

 

But those cars hold their value in Thailand even though they have 50-100,000 kms on the car and I would only save about ฿100,000 and would have to take a chance the mileage wasn't altered or it was flooded in Bangkok or involved in an accident that was covered up with good quality body repair with well matched paint on any repairs.

 

So, decided to get a new 2023 model with 0km in it.

 

Already put down a ฿3000 deposit for one and it's anticipated to take 3-6 months for the dealer to get one, that's how popular they are.

 

There's a simple reason for that...

 

Cost.

 

2023 Honda City SV

฿665,000

2023 Toyota Yaris Ativ Smart ฿594,000

 

So, right off the start you're saving ฿70,000.

 

And at the Toyota dealership I went to they offer a ฿15,000 discount if you pay cash.  Maybe Honda will do the same...?

 

I owned a Gen 2 Yaris Hatchback and it had a very basic look and feel. It also had a weird center console instrument cluster, which is different.

 

But Thailand's Yaris ATIV is a Gen 4 Yaris that's a 2nd Gen ATIV that's undergone a major style and equipment refresh. 

 

The boot (trunk) is about 3 times bigger than Gen 2.  Also it now has a "low to the ground" more sporty feel (only appearance, didn't test drive it).

 

I'm sure the Turbo has a more peppy response when you step on it.  I  test drove a 2017 Mini which had a Turbo engine made by BMW and it was very peppy.

 

But I don't need that.  I'm not driving on a race track, 555.  Where I drive there's so many traffic lights you don't need to go abovw 80km/hour because you're just going to have to stop at the next traffic light.

 

The new Yaris ATIV is the leader in Eco cars in Thailand and they're planning on exporting it to 35 countries.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/auto/review/2447852/toyota-eyes-top-thai-spot

 

Top of the class.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/auto/review/2368780/top-of-the-class

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well you defeated yourself on this one. The city turbo is 1.0 for a start. No reports of oil dilution with this motor. Likewise the 1.5 turbo has none of the oil dilution problems reported overseas.

[SiSePuede419]

16 hours ago, DavisH said:

No reports of oil dilution with this motor

If you read the link there's oil dilution on every single engine in every single car available including non Turbo engines.

 

It's only an issue if you don't warm up the engine enough.

 

The 1.5liter engine does have issues under those conditions.

 

You're saying you're 100% sure the 1.0l engine isn't based on the design of the 1.5?