'We're asking for help to bring our boy home to Manchester so he's not alone as he fights for his life'

[ketilnm]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:47 AM, brewsterbudgen said:

How is that relevant?  Presumably he's divorced or separated and his ex has custody of their children.  

 

You're all heart!!

 

Offcorse that is relevant, the guy has 5 children, so they going to grow up without a father, becouse his "chasing his dreams" Drunk driving, on the phone, no helmet, no insurence, in a country with one of the highest death rate on the roads.  Divorced or not, you have responsibility as a father.

 

And looking for a job in Thailand? So teaching english making 30,000 baht a month, thats going to help suport his 5 children..  Please.

[Bday Prang]

               There is a saying that goes something like  "people get the governments that they deserve"  using the same arguments that support that theory I think it would be correct to say that governments get the transport system that they deserve/ want /  are prepared to tolerate.  This in a roundabout sort of way means that people get the transport system they deserve. 

                Many reasons have been discussed on this thread, as to why the roads are so dangerous here, poor driving standards, ineffective law enforcement, etc etc.  all play a part, and,, all could be addressed,  but the reality is  that there is no real appetite to do so at government level, 

                If the government  wanted to change things they would, they like all governments are quite capable of controlling or influencing peoples' behavior when they really want to.    As a simple example, look how easily they managed to get people wearing masks during covid, ( I saw many on motorbikes with masks but no helmets ! lol) 

                The fact is, that this is simply not a priority for this government nor has it ever been for any previous government.and until it is, things will never change. It may seem a bit "heartless" to some members on here, innocent people dying as a result of government policy or inaction an all that ,  but its the same the world over, no different than old people dying of starvation or hypothermia in the UK as the government "can't afford" to pay them a decent pension  or can't be bothered to look after its war veterans  whilst at the same time housing illegal immigrants in luxury hotels  Priorities eh?

                 Driving in Thailand can be dangerous, especially for those unfamiliar with what I would call local driving "sensibilities"  and the most accomplished, advanced standard, western driver would not last long on Thai roads unless he learned to adapt quickly, I can almost see an argument for not allowing tourists to drive here at all, particularly motorcycles

                  To all those expressing there outrage here I would suggest you save your breath, you ain't gonna change anything, I was going to say that you just need to be careful and  adapt, but the fact that you are still alive and able to post on here means that you probably have already

 

                   

 

                 

[kwilco]

9 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

There are NO motorcycle lanes in Thailand. Google is yer friend.

Reas .y post   you have completely misread itiy post. It also looks like you are incapable of using Google, where you will find there are in fact schemes to demarcate m/c lanes in places like Bkk. I doubt if you've read the studies on this as you don't appear to have even read my few lines earlier.

It is a constant source of amazement to me that people think that by one search on Google they can rectify years of ignorance. There is a difference between search and research. Stick that in your Google and run it.

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

               There is a saying that goes something like  "people get the governments that they deserve"  using the same arguments that support that theory I think it would be correct to say that governments get the transport system that they deserve/ want /  are prepared to tolerate.  This in a roundabout sort of way means that people get the transport system they deserve. 

                Many reasons have been discussed on this thread, as to why the roads are so dangerous here, poor driving standards, ineffective law enforcement, etc etc.  all play a part, and,, all could be addressed,  but the reality is  that there is no real appetite to do so at government level, 

                If the government  wanted to change things they would, they like all governments are quite capable of controlling or influencing peoples' behavior when they really want to.    As a simple example, look how easily they managed to get people wearing masks during covid, ( I saw many on motorbikes with masks but no helmets ! lol) 

                The fact is, that this is simply not a priority for this government nor has it ever been for any previous government.and until it is, things will never change. It may seem a bit "heartless" to some members on here, innocent people dying as a result of government policy or inaction an all that ,  but its the same the world over, no different than old people dying of starvation or hypothermia in the UK as the government "can't afford" to pay them a decent pension  or can't be bothered to look after its war veterans  whilst at the same time housing illegal immigrants in luxury hotels  Priorities eh?

                 Driving in Thailand can be dangerous, especially for those unfamiliar with what I would call local driving "sensibilities"  and the most accomplished, advanced standard, western driver would not last long on Thai roads unless he learned to adapt quickly, I can almost see an argument for not allowing tourists to drive here at all, particularly motorcycles

                  To all those expressing there outrage here I would suggest you save your breath, you ain't gonna change anything, I was going to say that you just need to be careful and  adapt, but the fact that you are still alive and able to post on here means that you probably have already

 

                   

 

                 

I would largely agree with you, but the government does want to change things...the situation is causing them to loose face....unfortunately they are simply too ill-informed to implement and effective policy. It is the Safe System they have to adopt and they have ignored advice and think they know better.

Strangely enough since Covid I have been driving round Thailand and noticed a few encouraging signs..... the "green shoots" of road safety science.

But you are correct in assuming this is a public health issue for government and science and not the utter nonsense spouted by most people on this thread.

[IvorBiggun2]

12 minutes ago, kwilco said:

you will find there are in fact schemes to demarcate m/c lanes in places like Bkk.

'Schemes' yes in Bangkok but are any in use at this time?

 

If the pilot project proves the special lanes are effective, the department will expand the project to other areas in Bangkok.

Quote

Bangkok to designate special lanes for motorcycles

https://www.pattayamail.com/thailandnews/bangkok-to-designate-special-lanes-for-motorcycles-388680

Edited March 15, 2023 by IvorBiggun2

[kwilco]

10 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

As they are over Christmas / new year  during the "7 deadly days"

Yes...but the death rate is lower over during these periods. 

[kwilco]

1 minute ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

'Schemes' yes in Bangkok but are any in use at this time. Google is your friend.

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/thailandnews/bangkok-to-designate-special-lanes-for-motorcycles-388680

As ever, you are a one quote wonder and not it seems capable of really understanding the topic.. spend a year or so researching and get up to speed. 

You will, if you ever drive round Thailand see that attempts have been made.

All you are doing now is attempting to move the goal posts after your first blunder and getting that wrong too.

[IvorBiggun2]

4 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 

You will, if you ever drive round Thailand see that attempts have been made.

 

'Attempts' have been made and are probably still ongoing but can you state categorically where there are functioning motorcycle lanes used solely for motorcycles?  

[Bday Prang]

28 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Yes...but the death rate is lower over during these periods. 

That's what I was saying ,  at least it was what I meant to say

[Bday Prang]

10 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

There are NO motorcycle lanes in Thailand. Google is yer friend.

Look , regardless of what you have found on google or read in lonely planet,or even researched in the Thai law books.  If 100% of the indigenous population believe and act as if the far left hand lane  or hard shoulder as you put it ,is a motorcycle lane, then it becomes in effect , a motorcycle lane.  You would be foolish to treat it as anything else. try it and see what happens

By the way where I live it is used as a buffalo lane in the mornings and evenings, does google mention that too ?

[Bazerino]

On 3/12/2023 at 7:19 PM, Bazerino said:

Thank you, you obviously don't wear the cheap helmets as you have some brains & common sense that needs protecting.....

EXACTLY! But cheap plastic ones are o.k for thick SKULLS!

[KhaoYai]

13 hours ago, kwilco said:

As you show by this that you don't understand road safety or what I've said.

I said (typos corrected) - "You're citing Thailands traffic laws and their enforcement which you don't understand are not the whole issue" I'm not sure whether you lack comprehencion or are just being obtuse.

 

You profound lack of knowledge of raod safety makes it impossible to discuss with you. You need to get up to speed on raid safety and not fixate on single issues ... then you'll get the whole picture and be able to make a reasoned comment without fallacious premises.

Profound lack of knowledge of road safety (typos corrected) ???????????? - possibly the most arrogant, self important post, pompous post I've ever read.  If you don't like my comments, that's fair enough but don't fill this thread with your own self importance.

 

I fully understand that Thailand's traffic laws and their enforcement are not the whole issue.  As anyone with a modicum of intelligence would understand, it is implicit in my statement that the state has a role to play. I know that is not the whole issue. But as you don't seem to have that requirement, I'll say it a different way:

 

Anyone stating that a particular facet of a narrative has a role to play, is implicitly stating that their subject is only part of the story.  If I was trying to say that the state was totally to blame, I would simply say that, not that the state has a role to play.

 

If you read all of my posts on this subject, you should also understand that I am fully aware that there are other factors that may have lead to the situation this man finds himself in.

 

I selected the state and their lack of enforcement of the traffic laws - especially relating to the wearing of crash helmets - you surely cannot deny that that is a factor in many deaths and serious injuries sustained in accidents involving motorcycles?

 

I may not have your implicitly claimed knowledge of road safety issues and if what you write is an example of that knowledge, I don't want it but I do have experience.

 

I have driven many different types of vehicle in quite a few countries for over 40 years.  Most of those countries have been well developed in terms of their road networks and traffic laws so it came as something of a shock when I arrived in Thailand 21 years ago and started to learn how things work there and how dangerous Thai roads can be.

 

I have stated facts and if you deny those facts, supply proof. I'll list a few:

 

Thailand's road traffic laws state that a crash helmet must be worn when riding on public roads. A large percentage of riders choose not to wear them.

 

The police rarely prosecute people for not wearing a helmet (when taken against the number od journeys made).

 

When the police do stop people for ANY traffice offence, the fines issued are not of a size that would deter the offender from repeating their offence.  The fines also are often negotiated down to a price that the offender says they can afford.

 

It is very well known that the destination for a very large percentage of those fines is not the public's coffers.

 

Thai drivers and riders often have a high disregard for traffic laws in general. Part of that is down to the lack of enforcement, part is because the deterent is not enough and part is down to a mistrust of the police which creates some of the disregard for the laws in the first place.

 

Some of those traits also transfer to foreigners visiting the country.

 

In 2011 I was on the back of a motorcycle taxi when a car taxi pulled out of a side road and we collided with it.  Both myself and the taxi rider were quite severely injured and yes, I was not wearing a crash helmet. Why? Because Thailand is a very hot country and I knew that I was unlikely to be stopped by the police for not wearing a helmet.  In other words, I had obtained the same lack of respect for the law that native riders have.  That law is there for a very good reason.

 

I sustained a head injury, not too serious but enough to make me realise just how different things could have been. I can tell you that an unprotected human head, launched into a collision with metal box, even at a relatively slow speed will spill its contents all over the tarmac very easily. 

 

Do I ride without a helmet in my own country? Never, partly because I don't want to sustain serious injury in the event of a collision and partly because I know that if I do and I'm caught, I will receive a reasonably heavy fine and 3 points on my licence.  My insurance will also probably increase at the next renewal because of such a prosecution.

 

I am focusing on a single issue here because:

 

a). I rattle on far too much in any case and it would take me chapters to discuss other factors.

 

and

 

b). Because there is a strong possibility that if the subject of the OP had been wearing a helmet, he may well not be in hospital in a coma right now.

 

I repeat, the Thai state DOES have a role to play in the dire state of safety on its roads.  It does not ensure that its laws are enforced or provide a situation where its riders and drivers respect the law. It is very easy to bribe yourself out of a traffic offence in Thailand - even serious offences. Readers here will know that for sure.  It is also quite easy to buy your Thai licence if you so wish - I know that to be a fact because an ex girlfriend was offered a licence for 2000 baht when she persistently failed her driving test.

 

Imagine that, a person who barely knows how to turn a steering wheel, obtaining a licence without passing a test or having any formal training whatsoever.  A disaster waiting to happen. Maybe even worse, thousands of Thai's ride and drive every day without a licence.

 

Next time you're out on Thailand's roads, take a look at the chaos that is a roundabout.  Many drivers have no idea who has right of way and simply practice a rotating me me me/I don't give a damnn/scared attitude.  Last time I looked, there was no roundabout involved in the Thai driving test.

 

I stand by everything I have said and I will not discuss the matter further with you.

Edited March 15, 2023 by KhaoYai

[IvorBiggun2]

15 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

If 100% of the indigenous population believe and act as if the far left hand lane  or hard shoulder as you put it ,is a motorcycle lane, then it becomes in effect , a motorcycle lane. 

No it doesn't and that's why the high casualty com into play.

 

Quote

 

"Lane" number 1 is not a lane at all, but a hard shoulder that should be used in case of emergency or breakdown.

However, it is commonly used and referred to as a motorcycle lane and this practice is unlikely to change.

IIRC the law states that motorcycles should occupy the leftmost lane (your lane 2) and keep to the left side of that lane, unless overtaking.

 

 

[Bday Prang]

25 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

No it doesn't and that's why the high casualty com into play.

 

 

"Lane" number 1 is not a lane at all, but a hard shoulder that should be used in case of emergency or breakdown.

However, it is commonly used and referred to as a motorcycle lane and this practice is unlikely to change.

IIRC the law states that motorcycles should occupy the leftmost lane (your lane 2) and keep to the left side of that lane, unless overtaking.

 

Not quite sure what you are trying to prove by quoting that , it is not exactly an authoritative quote, merely another posters answer to a question  However you should take note of the middle (2nd) sentence 

 

 "However, it is commonly used and referred to as a motorcycle lane and this practice is unlikely to change."

 

and the concluding sentence

"Often, the rules of the road are in conflict with the practical use of the road."

 

If everybody else uses it as a motorcycle lane . then accidents are bound to happen if / when somebody like you with "righteousness" on his side, stubbornly  decides to take matters into his own hands and maybe  park up for a nap ....In the middle of what is rightly or wrongly being used as a motorcycle lane

 

You are wrong......give up    for gods sake at least stop driving for all our sakes

Edited March 15, 2023 by Bday Prang

[Bday Prang]

9 hours ago, ketilnm said:

Offcorse that is relevant, the guy has 5 children, so they going to grow up without a father, becouse his "chasing his dreams" Drunk driving, on the phone, no helmet, no insurence, in a country with one of the highest death rate on the roads.  Divorced or not, you have responsibility as a father.

 

And looking for a job in Thailand? So teaching english making 30,000 baht a month, thats going to help suport his 5 children..  Please.

Even fathers are allowed holidays, and how do you know he intended to teach english?   Do you have special powers....Please

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Profound lack of knowledge of road safety (typos corrected) ???????????? - possibly the most arrogant, self important post, pompous post I've ever read.  If you don't like my comments, that's fair enough but don't fill this thread with your own self importance.

 

I fully understand that Thailand's traffic laws and their enforcement are not the whole issue.  As anyone with a modicum of intelligence would understand, it is implicit in my statement that the state has a role to play. I know that is not the whole issue. But as you don't seem to have that requirement, I'll say it a different way:

 

Anyone stating that a particular facet of a narrative has a role to play, is implicitly stating that their subject is only part of the story.  If I was trying to say that the state was totally to blame, I would simply say that, not that the state has a role to play.

 

If you read all of my posts on this subject, you should also understand that I am fully aware that there are other factors that may have lead to the situation this man finds himself in.

 

I selected the state and their lack of enforcement of the traffic laws - especially relating to the wearing of crash helmets - you surely cannot deny that that is a factor in many deaths and serious injuries sustained in accidents involving motorcycles?

 

I may not have your implicitly claimed knowledge of road safety issues and if what you write is an example of that knowledge, I don't want it but I do have experience.

 

I have driven many different types of vehicle in quite a few countries for over 40 years.  Most of those countries have been well developed in terms of their road networks and traffic laws so it came as something of a shock when I arrived in Thailand 21 years ago and started to learn how things work there and how dangerous Thai roads can be.

 

I have stated facts and if you deny those facts, supply proof. I'll list a few:

 

Thailand's road traffic laws state that a crash helmet must be worn when riding on public roads. A large percentage of riders choose not to wear them.

 

The police rarely prosecute people for not wearing a helmet (when taken against the number od journeys made).

 

When the police do stop people for ANY traffice offence, the fines issued are not of a size that would deter the offender from repeating their offence.  The fines also are often negotiated down to a price that the offender says they can afford.

 

It is very well known that the destination for a very large percentage of those fines is not the public's coffers.

 

Thai drivers and riders often have a high disregard for traffic laws in general. Part of that is down to the lack of enforcement, part is because the deterent is not enough and part is down to a mistrust of the police which creates some of the disregard for the laws in the first place.

 

Some of those traits also transfer to foreigners visiting the country.

 

In 2011 I was on the back of a motorcycle taxi when a car taxi pulled out of a side road and we collided with it.  Both myself and the taxi rider were quite severely injured and yes, I was not wearing a crash helmet. Why? Because Thailand is a very hot country and I knew that I was unlikely to be stopped by the police for not wearing a helmet.  In other words, I had obtained the same lack of respect for the law that native riders have.  That law is there for a very good reason.

 

I sustained a head injury, not too serious but enough to make me realise just how different things could have been. I can tell you that an unprotected human head, launched into a collision with metal box, even at a relatively slow speed will spill its contents all over the tarmac very easily. 

 

Do I ride without a helmet in my own country? Never, partly because I don't want to sustain serious injury in the event of a collision and partly because I know that if I do and I'm caught, I will receive a reasonably heavy fine and 3 points on my licence.  My insurance will also probably increase at the next renewal because of such a prosecution.

 

I am focusing on a single issue here because:

 

a). I rattle on far too much in any case and it would take me chapters to discuss other factors.

 

and

 

b). Because there is a strong possibility that if the subject of the OP had been wearing a helmet, he may well not be in hospital in a coma right now.

 

I repeat, the Thai state DOES have a role to play in the dire state of safety on its roads.  It does not ensure that its laws are enforced or provide a situation where its riders and drivers respect the law. It is very easy to bribe yourself out of a traffic offence in Thailand - even serious offences. Readers here will know that for sure.  It is also quite easy to buy your Thai licence if you so wish - I know that to be a fact because an ex girlfriend was offered a licence for 2000 baht when she persistently failed her driving test.

 

Imagine that, a person who barely knows how to turn a steering wheel, obtaining a licence without passing a test or having any formal training whatsoever.  A disaster waiting to happen. Maybe even worse, thousands of Thai's ride and drive every day without a licence.

 

Next time you're out on Thailand's roads, take a look at the chaos that is a roundabout.  Many drivers have no idea who has right of way and simply practice a rotating me me me/I don't give a damnn/scared attitude.  Last time I looked, there was no roundabout involved in the Thai driving test.

 

I stand by everything I have said and I will not discuss the matter further with you.

You can't even identify a fact

I have driven far more than you on Thai roads and am currently doing so  ..  the fact that you cite this just shows howblittle you understand what you see.

It is pointless discussing this with a "flat earther" like yourself.

[kwilco]

 I know exactly what an M/C  lane should be and me original post indicates this..

This is a discussion about a guy in hospital and potential solutions to the situation..

All I see on this thread are wildly ullinfirmedcomments about road safety and demands that boil down to letting the guy die.

[Yellowtail]

A lot of people seem to think enforcing helmet and other traffic laws is cheap and easy, it is not. Ever policeman giving tickets for not wearing a helmet has to be taken for something else they were previously assigned too. 

 

I've driven in the US since around 1972, and in Thailand since 2000. To me, it seems like the roads and drivers in Thailand are steadily (albeit not drastically) improving, while the roads and drivers in the US seem to be steadily deteriorating. 

 

Is there anyone that wants to argue that there are not a greater percentage of people wearing helmets now than there were ten or twenty years ago? 

 

Also, it is worth noting that (at least when I was a kid) in the US most kids were driving at 14-15, licensed at 16 and almost everyone had their own car and or motorcycle at 18.  By the time I was 18 I had had two cars and two motorcycles, and we were lower-middle class. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

A lot of people seem to think enforcing helmet and other traffic laws is cheap and easy, it is not. Ever policeman giving tickets for not wearing a helmet has to be taken for something else they were previously assigned too. 

In TH, they are 'traffic' police, that is their assignment, so it takes them away from nothing.

 

Am I to assume you don't like here or understand that ?

 

That TH police dept don't budget a full time 2nd shift for traffic police is a bit of an issue.  Or maybe they do, and they simply don't work rush hour, and understandable.

Edited March 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[kwilco]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

A lot of people seem to think enforcing helmet and other traffic laws is cheap and easy, it is not. Ever policeman giving tickets for not wearing a helmet has to be taken for something else they were previously assigned too. 

 

I've driven in the US since around 1972, and in Thailand since 2000. To me, it seems like the roads and drivers in Thailand are steadily (albeit not drastically) improving, while the roads and drivers in the US seem to be steadily deteriorating. 

 

Is there anyone that wants to argue that there are not a greater percentage of people wearing helmets now than there were ten or twenty years ago? 

 

Also, it is worth noting that (at least when I was a kid) in the US most kids were driving at 14-15, licensed at 16 and almost everyone had their own car and or motorcycle at 18.  By the time I was 18 I had had two cars and two motorcycles, and we were lower-middle class. 

 

 

I agree with the idea Thai drivers are improving but that is not what road safety is about. Road safety is based on the premise that the range drivers abilities is a out the same worldwide. The difference is the effectiveness of governments in dealing with this.

If they a very good, as in Norrhern Europe, rhe side effect is that the drivers themselves think it is they that should take the credit, when in fact it is the government created driving environment that is where the real  credit is due.

The fact that the OP came from a country with one of the lowest accident rates in the world andstill managed to break every code in the book surely shows this.

A few interesting "factoids"

Thailand has the same number of reported collisions as the UK, but the resulting death rate is about 12 to 20 times higher.

Factoid - statistically you are LESS LIKELY to die in a 4 wheeled private vehicle in Thailand than you are in the USA.

Factpid Thailand still doesn't gather statistics to international standards I.e. diving resulting injuries into 3 categories.... minor, serious and fatal.

They also don't do other stas consistently.

Cars per pop mileage covered per 100k vehicle deaths etc etc.

You need all this to devise a proper road safety policy.

 

PS US death rates are about 4 times that of countries like Germany, UK and Sweden

[kwilco]

14 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

In TH, they are 'traffic' police, that is their assignment, so it takes them away from nothing.

They are not actually traffic police proper...they have no relevant traing and when was the last time you saw a calibrated crash report?

 

Police are a paramilitary force in Thailand, they simply don't have the right mandate to deal with matters like road safety....they do of course have 10 year old brown Hondas

[Yellowtail]

18 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

In TH, they are 'traffic' police, that is their assignment, so it takes them away from nothing.

 

Am I to assume you don't like here or understand that ?

 

That TH police dept don't budget a full time 2nd shift for traffic police is a bit of an issue.  Or maybe they do, and they simply don't work rush hour, and understandable.

Well, at least in Bangkok, there is a bit of traffic to deal with. Am I to assume you don't like to hear (here?) or understand that?

 

Did you not want to argue that there are not a greater percentage of people wearing helmets now than there were ten or twenty years ago or any one of my other claims? 

 

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, at least in Bangkok, there is a bit of traffic to deal with. Am I to assume you don't like to hear (here?) or understand that?

 

Did you not want to argue that there are not a greater percentage of people wearing helmets now than there were ten or twenty years ago or any one of my other claims? 

 

Since I agree with them, didn't see the need to comment.  As you didn't comment on my '2nd shift' comment.  So assume you agree.

 

It's like complete opposites, night & day, helmet use.  90% wear during PoPo hrs, 90% don't, when they are not working.

[Yellowtail]

22 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I agree with the idea Thai drivers are improving but that is not what road safety is about. Road safety is based on the premise that the range drivers abilities is a out the same worldwide. The difference is the effectiveness of governments in dealing with this.

If they a very good, as in Norrhern Europe, rhe side effect is that the drivers themselves think it is they that should take the credit, when in fact it is the government created driving environment that is where the real  credit is due.

The fact that the OP came from a country with one of the lowest accident rates in the world andstill managed to break every code in the book surely shows this.

A few interesting "factoids"

Thailand has the same number of reported collisions as the UK, but the resulting death rate is about 12 to 20 times higher.

Factoid - statistically you are LESS LIKELY to die in a 4 wheeled private vehicle in Thailand than you are in the USA.

Factpid Thailand still doesn't gather statistics to international standards I.e. diving resulting injuries into 3 categories.... minor, serious and fatal.

They also don't do other stas consistently.

Cars per pop mileage covered per 100k vehicle deaths etc etc.

You need all this to devise a proper road safety policy.

 

PS US death rates are about 4 times that of countries like Germany, UK and Sweden

You REALLY need to proof-read your posts. 

 

How much more is spent on roads and safety in the US and Europe? 

 

Again, I see a steady deterioration in the US and a steady improvement in Thailand. What about Europe? Many more laws and regulations now than when I was a kid, yet the driving is worse. 

 

A lot of talk about the lack of enforcement and the severity of the penalties, but if you're starting with a population that fundamentally respects the law, enforcing the law is much easier. It's easier to get PITA members to not eat dogs than Koreans. 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

12 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, at least in Bangkok, there is a bit of traffic to deal with. Am I to assume you don't like to hear (here?) or understand that?

 

Did you not want to argue that there are not a greater percentage of people wearing helmets now than there were ten or twenty years ago or any one of my other claims? 

 

Certainly helmet wearing is on the increase in Thailand and a good helmet is becoming a status symbol.

Remember in US and UK organisations like MAG actually campaigned AGAINST making helmets compulsory?...so idiocy is by no means the preserve of Thailand.

However you need also to look at the stats re. the efficacy  of helmet-wearing as it can only have limited results in certain accidents.

Motorcyclists are part of a group of road users referred to as "vulnerable". In Thailand they account for 80% of ALL deaths...  motorcyclists account for about  73% of all deaths. Only a fraction of this is head injuries preventable by helmets. Although it is still a significant amount.

I have to say though that the obsession of the media and contributors to this thread with only DEATHS gives a rather distorted view of the overall picture and leads to some rather bizarre generalisations on road safety.

This coupled with a massive overdose of confirmation bias and a general inability to separate anecdotal evidence from fact or theory, leads to some wildly inaccurate assumptions about road safety in Thailand 

[Mark mark]

40 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I agree with the idea Thai drivers are improving but that is not what road safety is about. Road safety is based on the premise that the range drivers abilities is a out the same worldwide. The difference is the effectiveness of governments in dealing with this.

If they a very good, as in Norrhern Europe, rhe side effect is that the drivers themselves think it is they that should take the credit, when in fact it is the government created driving environment that is where the real  credit is due.

The fact that the OP came from a country with one of the lowest accident rates in the world andstill managed to break every code in the book surely shows this.

A few interesting "factoids"

Thailand has the same number of reported collisions as the UK, but the resulting death rate is about 12 to 20 times higher.

Factoid - statistically you are LESS LIKELY to die in a 4 wheeled private vehicle in Thailand than you are in the USA.

Factpid Thailand still doesn't gather statistics to international standards I.e. diving resulting injuries into 3 categories.... minor, serious and fatal.

They also don't do other stas consistently.

Cars per pop mileage covered per 100k vehicle deaths etc etc.

You need all this to devise a proper road safety policy.

 

PS US death rates are about 4 times that of countries like Germany, UK and Sweden

I heard that the personal Freedom Lobby, will not let the Police Random or otherwise, Breath test ANY Drivers on the road ? (Unless they have Cause ?) ??? So well basically a LOT of the Accidents in the US ARE, caused by Drunks, well, as Well as Speed. !!! ??? 

[kwilco]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How much more is spent on roads and safety in the US and Europe? 

Safe roads save money. Deaths and injuries on Thai roads cost between 3 and 5% of GDP

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Since I agree with them, didn't see the need to comment.  As you didn't comment on my '2nd shift' comment.  So assume you agree.

 

It's like complete opposites, night & day, helmet use.  90% wear during PoPo hrs, 90% don't, when they are not working.

While I generally agree that more police mean less crime, it also means more money, and that money has to come from somewhere. Of the things I think Thailand should spend more money on, enforcement of helmet laws is pretty low on the list.

 

As to your 90% night and day comment, that has not been my experience in greater Bangkok, but I don't doubt at night it is somewhat lower. 

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

12 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You REALLY need to proof-read your posts. 

I'm in a car on a phone  on a chat site .... I assume people can work out the vagaries of predictive text for themselves.

[kwilco]

15 minutes ago, Mark mark said:

I heard that the personal Freedom Lobby, will not let the Police Random or otherwise, Breath test ANY Drivers on the road ? (Unless they have Cause ?) ??? So well basically a LOT of the Accidents in the US ARE, caused by Drunks, well, as Well as Speed. !!! ??? 

30 % of accidents in the US involve alcohol. ( be careful how you read that!).

In Thailand it is about the same.

Countries with best records are getting down below 20%.

But oddly enough stats like "alcohol" " speeding" etc don't change a lot in percentages.

I haven't looked at the US figures for couple of years but in Europe there have been some alarming rises.

A lot of this is difficult to assess at present due to the effects of Covid over nearly 3 years.

One of the major factors that is being investigated is the rise in phone, digital and media usage in 4 wheeled vehicles in particular.

Most countries, hand held is illegal, but it has been shown that even hands free can distract drivers and consuderablt interfer with reaction times. Then there is all the other digital displays available in modern vehicles.This is probably the area that is of most concern to road safety workers.

To understand this, you need to realise that speed, drink and reckless driving are not in themselves the main causes of crashes.... it is in fact human error that is the main factor .... this refers to daily minor slips that all drivers make every day... and they result in up to  93% of crashes.

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by kwilco