Work permit based on 2 Thai workers, special exception?

[arcturaz]

Hope I'm posting this in the right place. A call to anyone with deep knowledge of the Thailand legal code. I need information about obtaining a work permit under a special exception within Thailand legal regulations. According to information I obtained it is possible to use two workers, not the usual four, to obtain a work permit. The exception has to do with a single parent raising a child in Thailand. I am an American citizen on a retirement visa in Thailand. I have sole custody of my child who was born in Thailand and maintains dual citizenship status. I believe under Thailand law there is an exception in that I am I am allowed only two workers not four workers to provide myself with a work permit under my Thailand Amity company. I need specific legal advice in this area to determine if this is in fact true, and whether I will be able to benefit from said exception. If you can assist me please let me know Thank you.
 

Edited March 11, 2023 by arcturaz

[marin]

49 minutes ago, arcturaz said:

I am an American citizen on a retirement visa in Thailand.

You are not allowed to work or hold a work permit when on a retirement extension, so it would seem your question is moot. Sorry.

[ChaiyaTH]

Change to the non-o yearly visa based on child if under 20, then work permit can be done too.

[FritsSikkink]

Can't work on a retirement visa

[BritTim]

As others have pointed out, you will need to change to a permission to stay that allows work in the first place. Once that is done, it is probably true that the work permit is possible with only the two to one ratio if you are supporting a Thai national. In the end, it will depend on interpretation of the law by the local labour office. I suggest you discuss the issue with them.

[soisanuk]

On 3/12/2023 at 4:27 AM, BritTim said:

As others have pointed out, you will need to change to a permission to stay that allows work in the first place. Once that is done, it is probably true that the work permit is possible with only the two to one ratio if you are supporting a Thai national. In the end, it will depend on interpretation of the law by the local labour office. I suggest you discuss the issue with them.

As others have mentioned, if extension is based on retirement, work is not permitted - thus no work permit.  As to the American Treaty of Amity, there are special rules.  I know one person who obtained a work permit under its terms and didn't have any Thai employees.  He did need a Thai lawyer to assist in setting everything up as he said the rules were a bit complicated, but it can be done.

[Misty]

3 minutes ago, soisanuk said:

As others have mentioned, if extension is based on retirement, work is not permitted - thus no work permit.  As to the American Treaty of Amity, there are special rules.  I know one person who obtained a work permit under its terms and didn't have any Thai employees.  He did need a Thai lawyer to assist in setting everything up as he said the rules were a bit complicated, but it can be done.

Can you post more information about American Treaty of Amity companies not requiring Thai employees for foreigners with work permits?  I'm not saying this isn't true, but I've owned and run such a company for many years.  The Thai employee requirement has always been necessary. We've had solid legal advice. I've never heard of these "complicated rules" and so am a bit skeptical if the complicated rules from a Thai lawyer don't just involve some kind of "VIP service fee."

[BritTim]

24 minutes ago, Misty said:

Can you post more information about American Treaty of Amity companies not requiring Thai employees for foreigners with work permits?  I'm not saying this isn't true, but I've owned and run such a company for many years.  The Thai employee requirement has always been necessary. We've had solid legal advice. I've never heard of these "complicated rules" and so am a bit skeptical if the complicated rules from a Thai lawyer don't just involve some kind of "VIP service fee."

I am not an expert on the Treaty of Amity, but this is what I understand. First, it most certainly does, on paper, provide special treatment for US nationals wanting to establish small businesses in Thailand. One of the most important is being able to have a sole proprietorship with no Thai employees and a fixed annual tax. Whether the Labour Department will (as the law seems to imply they should) issue you a work permit, and whether you can get an extension based on working if you cannot prove a high salary is murky.

 

Certainly, you will need to use a good lawyer to be able to take full advantage of the Treaty's provisions. I could well believe that officials might be induced by financial favours to interpret the Treaty's conditions favourably. However, I think it can all be legal.

[Misty]

7 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I am not an expert on the Treaty of Amity, but this is what I understand. First, it most certainly does, on paper, provide special treatment for US nationals wanting to establish small businesses in Thailand. One of the most important is being able to have a sole proprietorship with no Thai employees and a fixed annual tax. Whether the Labour Department will (as the law seems to imply they should) issue you a work permit, and whether you can get an extension based on working if you cannot prove a high salary is murky.

 

Certainly, you will need to use a good lawyer to be able to take full advantage of the Treaty's provisions. I could well believe that officials might be induced by financial favours to interpret the Treaty's conditions favourably. However, I think it can all be legal.

Many thanks, that could be the case for a sole proprietorship.  My direct experience is with a Thai Amity treaty company only - so not a sole proprietorship.  I don't think Thai Amity treaty companies can hire foreigners with NonB or NonO visas and work permits and not employ Thais.

[Na Fan]

While it is nice to know what the law says, in reality it is largely irrelevant.

 

The only thing that matters is the current rules, which depend on the immigration office (and sometimes even individual officer). Sad, but have personally learnt this to be a fact.

 

[ChaiyaTH]

5 hours ago, Misty said:

 I don't think Thai Amity treaty companies can hire foreigners with NonB or NonO visas and work permits and not employ Thais.

You should not want to be 'hired' in the first place, but do freelance work for companies and invoice them. In that case I not see the issue but it would depend what you offer.

Edited March 13, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[BritTim]

29 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

You should not want to be 'hired' in the first place, but do freelance work for companies and invoice them. In that case I not see the issue but it would depend what you offer.

I am confused. How do you propose that someone should legally do freelance work without a work permit (assuming the work is for Thai companies)? On what basis would you apply for permission to stay in Thailand if not for work with a work permit?

[Misty]

4 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

You should not want to be 'hired' in the first place, but do freelance work for companies and invoice them. In that case I not see the issue but it would depend what you offer.

Ummm, I think something got lost in translation. Are you saying I should not want to be 'hired' by my Thai Amity Treaty company, but should instead do freelance work for it?

[arcturaz]

Thank you everyone for the informative replies. Still, only one respondent addressed the issue about a single expat parent raising a Thai child and what effect that might have (if any) on the number of workers who need to be employed to obtain a work permit. One respondent said I am ineligible - Quote - You are not allowed to work or hold a work permit when on a retirement extension, so it would seem your question is moot. Sorry. - 

Obviously I plan on changing my Visa first - Sorry Charlie ????

So, if anyone has any further information it would be greatly appreciated. It seems most lawyers are unaware of many of the points that were raised in this discussion. A disturbing, but significant fact. 

[Pib]

From some quick googling.   Talks a work permit with 1-2 employees "if married to a Thai" on a Non O visa, but doesn't say anything about being single and raising a Thai child (but since it's allowed if married to a Thai then "maybe" it would apply also if single & supporting a Thai child).

 

https://franklegaltax.com/how-many-thai-staff-are-required-for-my-business-2/

Edited March 14, 2023 by Pib

[Pib]

 

More googling talking Thai-US Amity Treaty and Work Permit requirements.  

 

https://www.bangkokpractice.com/thai-us-amity-treaty-company/

 

 

[Misty]

15 hours ago, Pib said:

 

More googling talking Thai-US Amity Treaty and Work Permit requirements.  

 

https://www.bangkokpractice.com/thai-us-amity-treaty-company/

Thanks, Pib, having owned and run a US Thai Amity Treaty company for nearly 20 year, your post above is in line with my understanding as well.  Strictly based on the Thai Amity treaty, 4 Thai employees are needed per foreign employee.  There may be exceptions to the employee rule, such as NonO supporting Thai dependent or LTR visa, but these have nothing to do with the Amity Treaty itself.

 

However as @BritTim notes above, the employee rules may be different in the case of Thai Amity Treaty sole proprietorship.  This may indeed be true, I have no experience with a sole proprietorship and so can't comment.

 

 

 

[arcturaz]

I just wanna thank everyone there is a lot of useful information in the replies and I appreciate it greatly. just to let you know, I've received information from a couple of different law firms that apparently because I am a single parent with full custody, plus I have the amity treaty, I will probably be allowed to have two workers instead of four workers to sponsor a work permit. it's not 100% certain at this point but it's starting to look like that. once again thank you everyone for your valuable assistance.

Edited March 22, 2023 by arcturaz