Warning, Keto, low carb

[h90]

14 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

You would be wrong.

 

While not a 100% correlation, muscular strength and health go hand in hand. I don't mean body builder muscles, but sufficient strength to, inter alia, bench ones weight, dead lift maybe 1.5X weight, have above average grip strength, the ability to dead hang for a minute, do 10+ pull-ups, do 50+ push-ups, hold a squat for a minute.....etc.

 

The resistance training necessary to meet those goals produces testosterone and HGH. Muscles also burn more calories, so being muscular makes it easier to keep the weight right. The increased blood flow and higher VO2 max aid cognition and boost the immune system. It also helps the skin stay young longer.

 

Plenty of recent studies show that regular exercise, especially resistance training, results in a substantial drop in all cause mortality.

 

Being in shape also simply feels good. One is nimble, agile and just looks better.

these goals are way to high specially for people who are older.
I doubt I could do these things, but even I am not in training at the moment, I could go out of the door and run 20km in maybe 130min in the normal heat in the morning or evening without eating or drinking something and I am well above 50 not training running at the moment. But I doubt I could do 10 pull ups or bench my weight...hold a squat for a minute on the other hand......If my leg muscles aren't sore, which is almost every day I think I can do it next to the fridge until there is no beer in it anymore.

[Hummin]

7 minutes ago, h90 said:

Also a long discussion if resistance exercise or cardio vascular exercise is more important.

I was convinced that debate was finished for a long time now, and without google new researches, I swear to walking an hour a day, and maintaining my muscles. Lifting and pushing weights. 

 

If you enjoy cardio, why not as long you feel good about it?

 

I find it more important to consider my internet habits in the evening, and what I drink and eat, and continue my exercises as I have done most of my life.

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I was convinced that debate was finished for a long time now, and without google new researches, I swear to walking an hour a day, and maintaining my muscles. Lifting and pushing weights. 

 

If you enjoy cardio, why not as long you feel good about it?

 

I find it more important to consider my internet habits in the evening, and what I drink and eat, and continue my exercises as I have done most of my life.

If I have the choice of swimming, paddling or rowing, I rather do that if I do not have a mountain to hike in a decent clima. 

 

The most important is to keep going with something you enjoy and gives you pleasure and your head as mind a rest

[JensenZ]

On 4/5/2023 at 9:58 AM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think from a common sense point of view cutting out carbs doesn't feel healthy. Too much protein feels unpleasant and carbs make you feel good in the longer term. 

On a different topic, I was happy that the theory that short sharp workouts are better than longer workouts is being questioned too, and in fact longer moderate and vigourous exercise can have better outcomes. 

Massive study uncovers how much exercise is needed to live longer | American Medical Association (ama-assn.org) 

Though I am sure the short sharp exercise has excellent benefits, and is better than none, I didn't buy that it was as effective as longer exercise based on how it made me feel. 

 

Studies and statistics are important, but the way diet and exercise makes you feel, is a key indicator of it's likely effectiveness and your ability to keep it up. 

You're talking high intensity interval training (HIIT). There one big flaw to this exercise technique. It is NOT suited to people who are old or out of shape. In these cases it's worse than no exercise at all because It's DANGEROUS. Apart from the possibility of causing blood clots, fainting, heart attacks etc, there's a very real possibility of causing serious tendon and muscle injuries. There are good reasons why you see warnings on exercise equipment to see your doctor before you start an exercise program.

 

One needs to choose an exercise regime appropriate to one's fitness levels and age. Even if you are young and fit, you would not do HIIT everyday.

 

I would choose walking as the ultimate exercise for older people.

Edited April 7, 2023 by JensenZ

[TravelerEastWest]

On 4/5/2023 at 11:30 AM, ozimoron said:

The amount people eat is bounded by their appetite and the weight they put on is influenced by their carb intake versus the amount of calories they burn. A fat person eating only one cup of rice and a slice a bread with sugar on top ever day will definitely not lose weight and will definitely become insulin resistant or diabetic. Reducing carbs is not a "best ever diet" it's the best ever diet. Specifically a Mediterranean diet with low, not no carbs.

Actually some interesting studies have been done showing that a rice diet is good for diabetes here is s summary the actual data can easily be researched if you are interested.

https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/rice-diet/

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

You're talking high intensity interval training (HIIT). There one big flaw to this exercise technique. It is NOT suited to people who are old or out of shape. In these cases it's worse than no exercise at all because It's DANGEROUS. Apart from the possibility of causing blood clots, fainting, heart attacks etc, there's a very real possibility of causing serious tendon and muscle injuries. There are good reasons why you see warnings on exercise equipment to see your doctor before you start an exercise program.

 

One needs to choose an exercise regime appropriate to one's fitness levels and age. Even if you are young and fit, you would not do HIIT everyday.

 

I would choose walking as the ultimate exercise for older people.

Complete BS. Older people need strength training to avoid chronic diseases like Alzheimers. HiiT doesn't need to be extreme and it should be proportionate to a person's age and physical fitness. There are no circumstances where it is contraindicated unless a doctor says otherwise.

 

I note you didn't post any link to support your claim. That generally means it can't be supported.

[LosLobo]

32 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

You would be wrong.

 

While not a 100% correlation, muscular strength and health go hand in hand. I don't mean body builder muscles, but sufficient strength to, inter alia, bench ones weight, dead lift maybe 1.5X weight, have above average grip strength, the ability to dead hang for a minute, do 10+ pull-ups, do 50+ push-ups, hold a squat for a minute.....etc.

 

The resistance training necessary to meet those goals produces testosterone and HGH. Muscles also burn more calories, so being muscular makes it easier to keep the weight right. The increased blood flow and higher VO2 max aid cognition and boost the immune system. It also helps the skin stay young longer.

 

Plenty of recent studies show that regular exercise, especially resistance training, results in a substantial drop in all cause mortality.

 

Being in shape also simply feels good. One is nimble, agile and just looks better.

You said I would be "wrong".

 

Then you said "while not a 100% correlation, muscular strength and health go hand in hand. I don't mean body builder muscles".

 

Interesting! 

 

With respect, I could ask you would I still be "wrong", if the OP or myself meant "100% correlation" and "body builder muscles" but I won't. Please refer to my previous post.

 

But thank you for the comments!

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Actually some interesting studies have been done showing that a rice diet is good for diabetes here is s summary the actual data can easily be researched if you are interested.

https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/rice-diet/

The advice is that there are better ways to achieve weight loss in a healthier manner. Not that the rice diet won't result in weight loss. A 30% reversal of diabetes is not great compared to modern diets like the Mediterranean diet, especially when combined with intermittent fasting.

[JensenZ]

47 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Complete BS.  

What a wonderful way to start a conversation and an argument. So be it...

 

Strength training and HIIT are not the same. You can strength train at any age, as long as you build up slowly and know your limits. I do both strength and cardio training, at 64, but never HIIT (but tried it a lot when I was younger). If you are suggesting that we should use HIIT for any reason whatsoever - that's complete BS.

 

By suggesting that HIIT is dangerous (that's pretty obvious if you understand what HIIT is, which you obviously don't), that's not saying strength work is bad or unnecessary.

 

Here's what I do:

 

1. Rowing (3x - 1 hour per week)

2. Ski Erg (3x - 30 min per week)

3. Cybex Arc (3x - 2 hours a week)

4. Weights (5x per week - short sessions working the main muscle groups)

5. Walking (including stair climb 3x a week - 3 hours)

 

I have my own gym.

 

NO HIIT. In cardio I gently increase my heart rate to an average of between 130 - 140 bpm, and occasionally push it a bit higher - slowly.

 

There's not much you can teach me about cardio or strength traing, but by all means, send me the data. 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by JensenZ

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

What a wonderful way to start a conversation and an argument. So be it...

 

Strength training and HIIT are not the same. You can strength train at any age, as long as you build up slowly and know your limits. I do both strength and cardio training, at 64, but never HIIT (but tried it a lot when I was younger). If you are suggesting that we should use HIIT for any reason whatsoever - that's complete BS.

 

By suggesting that HIIT is dangerous (that's pretty obvious if you understand what HIIT is, which you obviously don't). that not saying strength work is bad or unnecessary.

 

Here's what I do:

 

1. Rowing (3x - 1 hour per week)

2. Ski Erg (3x - 30 min per week)

3. Cybex Arc (3x - 2 hours a week)

4. Weights (5x per week - short sessions working the main muscle groups)

5. Walking (including stair climb 3x a week - 3 hours)

 

I have my own gym.

 

NO HIIT. In cardio I gently increase my heart rate to an average of between 130 - 140 bpm, and occasionally push it a bit higher - slowly.

 

There's not much you can teach me about cardio or strength traing, but by all means, send me the data. 

 

 

 

I am 68 and never went to a gym in my life until I joined one in Pattaya and engaged a personal trainer for HiiT several months ago. I train almost every day for at least an hour. I have a family history of stroke and have had a blood clot. I have long term high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I am doing well on HiiT.

 

A sure fire way to tell when someone doesn't know what they are talking about is when they start accusing others of not knowing what they are talking about without evidence to support their claims.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, JensenZ said:

You're talking high intensity interval training (HIIT). There one big flaw to this exercise technique. It is NOT suited to people who are old or out of shape. In these cases it's worse than no exercise at all because It's DANGEROUS. Apart from the possibility of causing blood clots, fainting, heart attacks etc, there's a very real possibility of causing serious tendon and muscle injuries. There are good reasons why you see warnings on exercise equipment to see your doctor before you start an exercise program.

 

One needs to choose an exercise regime appropriate to one's fitness levels and age. Even if you are young and fit, you would not do HIIT everyday.

 

I would choose walking as the ultimate exercise for older people.

High Intensity Interval Training - is it Safe for the Elderly?

 

Research suggests there is no increase in serious adverse cardiac events or musculoskeletal injuries when engaging in HIIT compared with moderate intensity exercise. However appropriate exercise prescription can help to minimise risks. All individuals are strongly recommended to seek medical clearance by their doctor prior to engaging in a HIIT program.

 

https://www.donvalerehabilitationhospital.com.au/For-Patients/Blog/High-Intensity-Interval-Training

 

In summary, as the global population continues to age, early research on the impact of aerobic HIIT in older adults suggests that this training method is generally well-tolerated, feasible, and may confer many health advantages to this population.

 

https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-021-00344-4

Edited April 7, 2023 by ozimoron

[JensenZ]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

I am 68 and never went to a gym in my life until I joined one in Pattaya and engaged a personal trainer for HiiT several months ago. I train almost every day for at least an hour. I have a family history of stroke and have had a blood clot. I have long term high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I am doing well on HiiT.

 

A sure fire way to tell when someone doesn't know what they are talking about is when they start accusing others of not knowing what they are talking about without evidence to support their claims.

You can count yourself lucky. That personal trainer doesn't have a clue what he is doing if he is actually using HIIT. He's probably using a dumbed down version for you. Btw, go back and read my original post. I said it is dangerous for people who are not in good condition, and/or old. 

 

Unlike you, I've done a lot of cardio and strength training for 50 years, (never stopped) since 1975. You've been doing HIIT or whatever it is you do for 2 months, and now you're an expert.

 

There's no need to reply. You don't know anything. In your physical condition you might not last another month anyway.

[JensenZ]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

High Intensity Interval Training - is it Safe for the Elderly?

 

Research suggests there is no increase in serious adverse cardiac events or musculoskeletal injuries when engaging in HIIT compared with moderate intensity exercise. However appropriate exercise prescription can help to minimise risks. All individuals are strongly recommended to seek medical clearance by their doctor prior to engaging in a HIIT program.

 

https://www.donvalerehabilitationhospital.com.au/For-Patients/Blog/High-Intensity-Interval-Training

Good luck finding a doctor who understands what HIIT is. If you went to a proper sports doctor, you wouldn't have been cleared.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

Good luck finding a doctor who understands what HIIT is. If you went to a proper sports doctor, you wouldn't have been cleared.

I asked you to provide links to evidence. You have consistently failed to do so while I have provided links to demonstrate that HiiT for the elderly is both effective and safe. Your condescending and demeaning attitude matches your apparent lack of knowledge.

[ozimoron]

Of course, you should always check with your doctor before starting any exercise program. But HIIT is safe for adults of all ages and may well be a great option for you.

 

https://www.hss.edu/article_hiit-workouts-seniors.asp

[JensenZ]

Just now, ozimoron said:

I asked you to provide links to evidence. You have consistently failed to do so while I have provided links to demonstrate that HiiT for the elderly is both effective and safe. Your condescending and demeaning attitude matches your apparent lack of knowledge.

Seriously? Your very first words were "Complete BS" and you think I'm rude and condescending.

 

I could swamp this thread with discussions and articles of HIIT vs moderate cardio exercise for elderly people. This is all new and exciting for you, but I've researched this for 20 years. You can just use Google, no need for my help. The reason why these rehabiliation clinics like HIIT is because most people are lazy and they like quick workouts. It's appealing. 

 

You like your program, good - you're still alive. A good doctor would not have cleared you, but this is Pattaya - anything goes.

[JensenZ]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I asked you to provide links to evidence. You have consistently failed to do so while I have provided links to demonstrate that HiiT for the elderly is both effective and safe. Your condescending and demeaning attitude matches your apparent lack of knowledge.

The link you provided was from a rehabiliation clinic, selling services. Find real data and it needs to be a direct comparision of different training regimes conducted scientifically. 

[save the frogs]

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

To have muscles mass and strenght and maintaining it while you get older is essential for good health.

yes, that's exactly what I meant.

thank you for extrapolating on my point and providing links for evidence.

i owe you one!

[JensenZ]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:22 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I may have mixed up my exercise studies - there were a few that came out - including this one that shows running can be good as against necessarily wearing out your joints Is running bad for your knees? Research shows impact on marathoners (nbcnews.com) The other study suggested longer exercise appears to be optimal for health. 

It's not a cut and dry situation. Bodyweight is a huge factor in running stress on the knees. Every extra pound of bodyweight increases the stress on the knees by a factor of 3 - 4 times. I'm a muscular 100kg. There is no way I'm going to run for cardio. Marathon runners are generally super lightweights.

 

[ozimoron]

14 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

The link you provided was from a rehabiliation clinic, selling services. Find real data and it needs to be a direct comparision of different training regimes conducted scientifically. 

I have provided three links. You have provided none.

[save the frogs]

33 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I train almost every day for at least an hour. I have a family history of stroke and have had a blood clot. I have long term high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I am doing well on HiiT.

you're doing HIIT an hour every day?

HIIT is high-intensity cardio, right?

you may be over-exerting yourself.

i'm not a huge fan of high-intensity cardio.

i think low-intensity cardio is healthier.

coupled with lifting weights, but not every day. no more than 3 days per week.

the low-intensity cardio like walking will help you recover from lifting weights.

but anyway, i don't expect you to take advice from me. i'm not a professional athlete.

and i've never done HIIT. 

but I tend to agree with the following literature:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/well/move/exercise-hiit.html#:~:text=A new study hints that,every cell of your body.

Too Much High Intensity Exercise May Be Bad For Your Health

A new study hints that excessive HIIT may harm your mitochondria, the energy generators found in every cell of your body.

 

[JensenZ]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

I have provided three links. You have provided none.

You're obsessed with links. All your links are irrevant as they don't compare HIIT programs with longer, slower cardio programs, and the range of longer programs is endless. I would recommend you stop doing it immediately as your internal health is dismall. Start doing some resistance work and more gentle cardio. I would recommend the Cybex Arc Trainer. Look it up - you have Google.

[save the frogs]

2 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

Start doing some resistance work and more gentle cardio. I would recommend the Cybex Arc Trainer. Look it up - you have Google.

I agree with that.

For gentle cardio, go for long walks. No equipment needed.

Take up golf.

Or maybe even Yoga and Qi Gong would be considered gentle cardio.

Or check this out:

Walking on the spot in your living room in front of the TV. No expensive equipment needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u1L7cHGAws&t=166s

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

you're doing HIIT an hour every day?

HIIT is high-intensity cardio, right?

you may be over-exerting yourself.

i'm not a huge fan of high-intensity cardio.

i think low-intensity cardio is healthier.

coupled with lifting weights, but not every day. no more than 3 days per week.

the low-intensity cardio like walking will help you recover from lifting weights.

but anyway, i don't expect you to take advice from me. i'm not a professional athlete.

and i've never done HIIT. 

but I tend to agree with the following literature:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/well/move/exercise-hiit.html#:~:text=A new study hints that,every cell of your body.

Too Much High Intensity Exercise May Be Bad For Your Health

A new study hints that excessive HIIT may harm your mitochondria, the energy generators found in every cell of your body.

 

Most days, yes. I train different groups of muscles each session over three days. All the research I have done (a lot) indicates that HiiT is the best form of exercise for lengevity. I combine that with a mediterranean diet and intermittent fasting. I don't believe that I'm doing excessive training. In practise I do about 5 times a week and I do more with weights in sets than I do hard aerobic exercise. I do aerobic exercise more moderately than the studies suggested causes damage.

 

Usually three HIIT sessions are recommended in a single week. But one study found that working out intensely for three days and being sedentary for four days each week did not improve the blood pressure or body fat as much as exercising moderately five times a week.

 

https://advancedmolecularlabs.com/blogs/news/new-study-says-high-intensity-interval-training-hiit-can-cause-mitochondrial-dysfunction

[JensenZ]

8 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

you're doing HIIT an hour every day?

HIIT is high-intensity cardio, right?

you may be over-exerting yourself.

i'm not a huge fan of high-intensity cardio.

i think low-intensity cardio is healthier.

coupled with lifting weights, but not every day. no more than 3 days per week.

the low-intensity cardio like walking will help you recover from lifting weights.

but anyway, i don't expect you to take advice from me. i'm not a professional athlete.

and i've never done HIIT. 

but I tend to agree with the following literature:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/well/move/exercise-hiit.html#:~:text=A new study hints that,every cell of your body.

Too Much High Intensity Exercise May Be Bad For Your Health

A new study hints that excessive HIIT may harm your mitochondria, the energy generators found in every cell of your body.

 

Unfortunately the NY Times is a subscription only news site so I can't read it.

 

I agree with what you said. The problem we might have these days, with the popularity of HIIT is that the intensity of the program can vary a lot and a lot of people who think they are doing HIIT are not. There is no way that a person should (or could do) true HIIT everyday. 3x a week max.

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

You're obsessed with links. All your links are irrevant as they don't compare HIIT programs with longer, slower cardio programs, and the range of longer programs is endless. I would recommend you stop doing it immediately as your internal health is dismall. Start doing some resistance work and more gentle cardio. I would recommend the Cybex Arc Trainer. Look it up - you have Google.

I love links. They dispel mere opinions and provide scientific basis to arguments.

[save the frogs]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

But one study found that working out intensely for three days and being sedentary for four days each week did not improve the blood pressure or body fat as much as exercising moderately five times a week.

The best exercise regimen, as far as I know, if lifting weights no more than 3 days a week.

And then do low intensity cardio on days when you're not lifting. This will help the body to recover. 

So you're not being sedentary on off-days. You're doing low intensity cardio.

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

The best exercise regimen, as far as I know, if lifting weights no more than 3 days a week.

And then do low intensity cardio on days when you're not lifting. This will help the body to recover. 

So you're not being sedentary on off-days. You're doing low intensity cardio.

I believe that advice is more applicable to people who train every muscle group every day for the three days whereas I train each muscle group only once in three days at most.

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

I note you didn't post any link to support your claim. That generally means it can't be supported.

Can you post a link to support that claim, otherwise it's just another one of your BS posts

[ozimoron]

Just now, scubascuba3 said:

Can you post a link to support that claim, otherwise it's just another one of your BS posts

what claim did I not support with a link?