House Water tank Pipe

[transam]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

And me. It has been installed for over 18 years and only 1 serious leak in that time.

 

I use a Mitsubishi EP-305R water pump. It has 1 inch entry and exit ports with a shut off valve each side,  so that if I need to replace the pump it is easy. You can but the 1 to 1/2 adaptors at any hardware shop. That gives me plenty of pressure to the toilet sink and shower on the 2nd floor.

 

I have put in 2 x 5 micron cartridge filters before the pump to get rid of most of the sludge which doesn't sink to the bottom of the tank. The filters are bolted to my workshop wall and the pump is on a metal table to save me bending down. (I am 78).

 

I have 20 x 1,700 litre ongs for water storage as sometimes the water stops for a few days and then my wife goes to the tessaban and orders more with delivery by the fire truck.

I've got a Mitsu 250w, when we had the floods, the only room that took water was the room with the wash machine, tank and pump.

Wasn't I glad I put valves everywhere to take the pump out, raise it up a foot or so and re-plumb....

It pays to think of any eventuality that costs peanuts for future problems.......????

[transam]

4 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Thank you for those things.

 

I don't know the distance from the city mains supply in the road to our meter, my guess is similar to your, around 4 meters. The distance from the meter to the tank location is around 20 meters (I guess). If the latter were replaced with say three quarter inch pipe, would the flow not be limited by the size of the pipe from the mains to the meter, which is half an inch? 

 

Secondly, you say not to use half inch pipe anywhere that is unnecessary, does that include the final run through the walls of the house, to the outlet at the point of use?

My gov. supply is probably 40mtrs to the tank, it is less than 1", at the meter it looks like 1/2" internal plastic, in and out, could be a tad more though.

 

Most of my place has 1/2" pipe, it is all sunk in the walls, nothing on show.......????

Back home, we would use 1/2"/12mm copper pipe all over the place wiv no probs, though no pump was needed there....????

[norbra]

Why make life difficult?

Upstairs fill a 40 litre rubbish bin and the same downstairs your MIL will never be without water.

Replenish as necessary 

Edited April 28, 2023 by norbra

[transam]

2 minutes ago, norbra said:

Why make life difficult?

Upstairs fill a 40 litre rubbish bin and the same downstairs your MIL will never be without water.

Replenish as necessary 

Bet you've got slippery tiles.....................????

[nigelforbes]

Troll post reported and put on ignore list.

[norbra]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

Bet you've got slippery tiles.....................????

You lose,we have 2 bins,never needed water from them in the last 10 years. Wife is an Issan woman this method is ingrained from birth.

Edited April 28, 2023 by norbra

[sometimewoodworker]

16 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Thank you for those things.

 

I don't know the distance from the city mains supply in the road to our meter, my guess is similar to your, around 4 meters. The distance from the meter to the tank location is around 20 meters (I guess). If the latter were replaced with say three quarter inch pipe, would the flow not be limited by the size of the pipe from the mains to the meter, which is half an inch? 

Yes the volume of water will be governed by the city supply pipe, but any length of ½” will give you friction losses. My preference is to use the largest practical size once you get to 1 ½” you have almost as good a supply as is possible in a domestic install. That is why I standardised on 32mm PP-R 

23 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Secondly, you say not to use half inch pipe anywhere that is unnecessary, does that include the final run through the walls of the house, to the outlet at the point of use?

Our system uses 32mm until the outlet, so yes all final runs are 32mm with just a step down for a couple of centimetres at the outlet.

 

Because of this we still have water flow when the power is off, true it is poor but poor supply is better than no supply.

[nigelforbes]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Yes the volume of water will be governed by the city supply pipe, but any length of ½” will give you friction losses. My preference is to use the largest practical size once you get to 1 ½” you have almost as good a supply as is possible in a domestic install. That is why I standardised on 32mm PP-R 

Our system uses 32mm until the outlet, so yes all final runs are 32mm with just a step down for a couple of centimetres at the outlet.

 

Because of this we still have water flow when the power is off, true it is poor but poor supply is better than no supply.

Many thanks for your help with this, much appreciated.

[billd766]

19 minutes ago, norbra said:

Why make life difficult?

Upstairs fill a 40 litre rubbish bin and the same downstairs your MIL will never be without water.

Replenish as necessary 

I have a 200 litre water barrel in each toilet with a plastic saucepan for just that and for when the water runs out, The toilet rooms are about 3 x 2 metres  in size.

[billd766]

8 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Many thanks for your help with this, much appreciated.

Sometimes there are some useful and helpful threads on ANN.

[sometimewoodworker]

Just an interesting aside. Our house has 32mm PP-R. Our builder made a mistake when pressure testing the system and tested at about 28 bar!!!

 

At that pressure we had a slight loss of pressure in about 4 hours 

with the correct pressure there was no change in 48 hours 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, nigelforbes said:

Thank you for those things.

 

I don't know the distance from the city mains supply in the road to our meter, my guess is similar to your, around 4 meters. The distance from the meter to the tank location is around 20 meters (I guess). If the latter were replaced with say three quarter inch pipe, would the flow not be limited by the size of the pipe from the mains to the meter, which is half an inch? 

 

Secondly, you say not to use half inch pipe anywhere that is unnecessary, does that include the final run through the walls of the house, to the outlet at the point of use?

From the meter (1 inch connectors) I would have to run nearly 40 metres to all 20 ongs and then re plumb each of them on the input side. The ong outputs are 1/2 inch which I would then have to expand out to 1 inch, back nearly 20 metres to the filters which are 1/2 inch, and then back to 1 inch after the filters to the pump. I run 4 ongs at a time.

 

Then underground to the outside of the house. In my wife's house to replumb it would be pipes on the outside of, and through the walls and then to an adaptor to convert 1 inch to 1/2 inch. At the point of use, the taps, shower pipe, toilet filler and bum squirter are all 1/2 inch.

 

It would be a long, messy and expensive job and not one that at my age I would want to consider.

 

An easier method would be to buy a Grundfos pump which gives a higher pressure and can be regulated buy the shut off valve after the pump.

 

Grundfos pumps are NOT cheap but they are about the best on the market.

 

 

[nigelforbes]

Based on what poster OTWW wrote, I've decided on 3/4 inch pipe from the meter to the tank (circa 40 meters) , 1 inch from the tank to the base of the building (4 meters, into which a pump can be installed later) with six spurs going into the building from the 1 inch pipe. Short runs can be 1/2 inch, anything longer than that can be 3/4 inch followed by 1/2 inch to the point of use. This simplifies the bi-pass pipe size which can be 3/4 inch (feeding into the 1 inch pipe.

 

Thank you all for your comments.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, nigelforbes said:

Used to? This is MiL's house, it's a very poor basic village in the middle of nowhere, we had great difficulty getting her to stop using stone jars of water in the bathroom. 

Those earthenware ongs are my backup solution for when city water and all my fancy pipe, tank and pump wizardry goes tits up.

[nigelforbes]

Here's the final schematic, in case anyone things they can meaningfully improve on things.

 

[VocalNeal]

Just now, nigelforbes said:

I can't use 1 inch distribution when the feed pipe is only half an inch.

Why not???? You could use a 6 inch pipe to feed the house if you wish. It won't increase the flow but you could use it.

[nigelforbes]

4 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Why not???? You could use a 6 inch pipe to feed the house if you wish. It won't increase the flow but you could use it.

You need to read the thread, we've moved on from that.

[Dante99]

31 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Here's the final schematic, in case anyone things they can meaningfully improve on things.

 

why not just run the 1" pipe into both bathrooms then split to the fixtures.  There is really no need to run separate feeds to each fixture in each bathroom, is there?

[VocalNeal]

7 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

You need to read the thread, we've moved on from that.

I'm not sure we've moved anywhere. Someone mentioned friction loss. In a domestic system when the toilet cistern is filling. Really???? The filters on the faucets/taps will cause more lose.

 

Most bathroom fittings are 1/2 BSP or NPT so running any bigger than 1/2 pipe to those locations is meaningless. Unless there is a reason for extra rigidity in the piping system. The best advice in the thread is use the same pipe size as the pump. K.I.S.S.

[Dante99]

4 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

running any bigger than 1/2 pipe to those locations is meaningless.

no, bigger pipe will reduce friction loss and increase flow and pressure

[VocalNeal]

7 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

no, bigger pipe will reduce friction loss and increase flow and pressure

Not incorrect but meaningless in a house plumbing system for taking a shower or filling a toilet. Just use 3/4 everywhere and bush down for the threaded connections.  

 

As has been suggested I'm moving on

Edited April 29, 2023 by VocalNeal

[nigelforbes]

23 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

why not just run the 1" pipe into both bathrooms then split to the fixtures.  There is really no need to run separate feeds to each fixture in each bathroom, is there?

A possibility, except it means pipe work running around the inside of the bathroom walls which is not the best thing..

[Dante99]

22 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

A possibility, except it means pipe work running around the inside of the bathroom walls which is not the best thing..

Oh, yes you would want to try to minimize that.

[lopburi3]

16 hours ago, nigelforbes said:

The purpose of installing the tank is because City supply is sometimes shut off for days at a time, the tank gives MiL a water supply reserve for use at such time.

 

Yes, I would like to be able to instal the pump and the tank at the same time because this would simplify matters greatly. I won't bore everyone with the reasons why this is problematic, please just accept that it is unlikely to happen in the short term.

In that case just install a branch feed to the tank with normal float valve for now and have tap near bottom of tank (or just get upcountry clay pot with cover and use for rainwater collection?).  Tank is not going to supply usable water flow to house taps so no need to hook up.  Just use outside tap/bucket until you can get a pump.

[nigelforbes]

3 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

In that case just install a branch feed to the tank with normal float valve for now and have tap near bottom of tank (or just get upcountry clay pot with cover and use for rainwater collection?).  Tank is not going to supply usable water flow to house taps so no need to hook up.  Just use outside tap/bucket until you can get a pump.

Can I respectfully ask that you read the thread?

 

The house currently has a City water supply that has good pressure which feeds the three outlets on the first floor bathroom. The purpose of the tank is to provide continuity when the City supply is interrupted and to replace the clay pots that you now propose I install!

[transam]

14 hours ago, norbra said:

You lose,we have 2 bins,never needed water from them in the last 10 years. Wife is an Issan woman this method is ingrained from birth.

"You lose"..................????

 

My wife is Isaan too, and from a very poor background, but she knows about progress, and now complains if there is something wrong with the electric "hot" shower.   ????

If you want to keep your wife in the dark ages, that's up to you, but I think you maybe lost....????

 

[norbra]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

"You lose"..................????

 

My wife is Isaan too, and from a very poor background, but she knows about progress, and now complains if there is something wrong with the electric "hot" shower.   ????

If you want to keep your wife in the dark ages, that's up to you, but I think you maybe lost....????

 

My wife de-installed pump and tank as in her opinion they took up too much room. Town water easily feeds our second floor bathroom.

Howzat for an update.

[transam]

1 minute ago, norbra said:

My wife de-installed pump and tank as in her opinion they took up too much room. Town water easily feeds our second floor bathroom.

Howzat for an update.

"Howzat for an update"

Well, it seems your wife controls you....................

 

So you use town water supply to fill two upstairs dustbins so you can use a saucepan to wet yourself. 

I will give you 8 out of 10 for effort, but 0 out of 10 for using your loaf.........????

 

[lopburi3]

22 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Can I respectfully ask that you read the thread?

I did read it and that is why I posted.  Use normal water for daily use but have additional supply for outage seemed to be your goal and that was what I posted.  Without a pump you are not going to have any usable water pressure to any house taps from a ground level tank so KISS principle seems to be best option.

[norbra]

15 minutes ago, transam said:

"Howzat for an update"

Well, it seems your wife controls you....................

 

So you use town water supply to fill two upstairs dustbins so you can use a saucepan to wet yourself. 

I will give you 8 out of 10 for effort, but 0 out of 10 for using your loaf.........????

 

You can't read? I mentioned earlier that the water in the bins had not been used for more than 10 years to my knowledge. She decided this course of action whilst I was in Australia getting long term medical treatment as the pump had failed.

Edited April 29, 2023 by norbra