LTR Wealthy Pensioner "top-up to $80K" passive income using bonds, annuities, etc. thread.

[retiree]

Please: do discuss methods, please don't complain about the rules.

 

I'm starting this thread to try to create a central reference for folks who:
 - meet the minimum LTR $40K passive income requirement with Social Security or pension,
 - have money in the bank, but need to show additional passive income to get to $80K,
 - are not looking for well-meaning advice about why they shouldn't,
 - do not want to read complaints about procedures, BOI, banking, rules, etc., 
 - do not want to buy condos or invest in companies,
 - do not yet have RMD / required IRA distributions, and want to avoid taxable IRA distribution for now,
 - may have other considerations, e.g. make it easy for a Thai partner to inherit the asset in case of one's death,
 - just want to get it done simply, even if it costs a few bucks more.

 

There has been some discussion about the difficulty of buying Thai gov bonds buried in the big LTR thread, but it seems to be "know a guy who knows a guy ... ".  There are also occasional discussions of annuities in the business forum, but afaik there is still no simple version of an immediate annuity for sale in Thailand.

 

Some basic questions are:
 - is there an easy way to buy Thai government bonds that satisfies the BOI?
 - is there a Thai company that will definitely sell a five or 10 year immediate annuity?
 - is there another in-country alternative that satisfies the BOI, and can have a Thai beneficiary?
 - is buying an immediate annuity overseas still the easiest way to create passive income?
 - does anybody have any out-of-the box solutions?
For instance, a regular IRA can buy an immediate annuity and receive payments within the IRA, so there's no tax consequence yet.  Does this work for the BOI, even though it wouldn't generate a 1099-R ?

 

Thanks in advance for any specific methods for solving the Wealthy Pensioner top-up to $80K problem.
And please, let's try to stick to productive discussion of this one topic 
-- Retire

[oldcpu]

I purchased 2-million THB of Thai government bonds via Bangkok Bank so to 'top up' my investment in Thailand for the LTR "Wealthy Pensioner" 40K US$ equivalent passive income per year.

 

I was given a bond Book from the Bangkok Bank.  I provided copy of the Bond book pages to BoI as part of my LTR application, but then just over a week ago BoI asked for a 'Bond Certificate' instead of copies of the Bond Book.  One nominally has to pay about 200 baht or so more to get a Bond Certificate, BUT given Thai government bonds are now 'scriptless bonds' the Bond Certificates are not nominally provided (unless specifically asked for).  FURTHER, I discovered most Bangkok Bank branches do NOT know how to apply for a Thai government bond certificate.

 

My wife and I phoned a few branches of Bangkok Bank and 2 said they would not do it. We then called the Bangkok HQ for Bangkok Bank and they stated the Bangkok Bank branch where I bought the Thai government bonds was obliged to order the Bank Certificate if one asked.

 

So I went to Bangkok Bank branch from where I ordered the bonds. The teller had no clue how to do it, but she started phoning Bangkok Bank HQ, and then the official Government National Bank. She made about a dozen phone calls with multiple 'run arounds', fowarded to another number.  Each time she was told a Bond Certificate was not needed, and each time she had to tell them it WAS NEEDED for an LTR visa proof of investment.

 

Finally she reached a number/contact they gave her instructions how to proceed.  She and I filled in the form, I paid the money for the certificate, I was given a receipt, and over a week later I am still waiting for the certificate to arrive.

 

So I can't recall - BUT if when you first buy the bond you are given an option at the same time to pay extra for a Bond certificate, be CERTAIN to do so as BoI require such.

Edited May 4, 2023 by oldcpu

[VocalNeal]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I purchased 2-million THB of Thai government bonds via Bangkok Bank so to 'top up' my investment in Thailand for the LTR "Wealthy Pensioner" 40K US$ equivalent passive income per year.

You paid $57,000-ish on bonds and you get 40,000 a year back? Where do I sign????? Or did I miss something.

Edited May 4, 2023 by VocalNeal

[oldcpu]

7 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

You paid $57,000-ish on bonds and you get 40,000 a year back? Where do I sign????? Or did I miss something.

Perhaps I mistyped?

 

Nominally for a LTR Wealthy pensioner one has to show equivalent $80K US/year passive income.

 

But there is an alternative LTR Wealthy pensioner category that where one only has to show equivalent $40K US/year passive income IF one can also prove a $250K US$ equivalent investment in Thailand.  I my case I was going for the at least $40K US$ passive income category, but I was a bit short of proving the $250K US$ investment in Thailand. So I needed to show a bit less than 2-million THB more investment in Thailand, which I did via buying Thai government bonds.

 

Hopefully that makes this more clear ? 

[retiree]

19 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I purchased 2-million THB of Thai government bonds via Bangkok Bank ... 

Thank you.  I guess the takeaway is that one should go to the main Bangkok Bank branch if purchasing the BOI alternative of US$250K, with (I think) 5 years minimum to maturity.   Am I correct in thinking you can name a Thai beneficiary for this type of bond?  

 

And if anybody could name the specific department or person at the main branch to deal with, as well as any other requirements, that would be great.  For example, can a foreign resident on retirement extension, without a tabien baan, make a cash purchase using local funds?  

-- Retiree 

[Pib]

2 hours ago, retiree said:

Am I correct in thinking you can name a Thai beneficiary for this type of bond?  

I expect not just as you can not designate a bank account beneficiary with a Thai bank.   Instead your desired beneficiary (ies) needs to be designated in your will for the Thai probate court to consider in accordance with the Thai inheritance laws.   

[retiree]

16 hours ago, Pib said:

you can not designate a bank account beneficiary with a Thai bank.

My thinking stands corrected, thanks ????    I see that Bangkok Bank transfers bond book income to one's Bangkok Bank savings account, but whether or not that can be an either-signature joint account (some banks allow, some do not), I imagine that the bond owner dying would gum up the works.  

 

Can anybody who has done this please comment on what, exactly, they gave the BOI to verify overseas annuity income?   I'm completely ignorant on this.  When you buy an annuity, do you get a document stating the payout and duration that the BOI accepts?   I'd assume they want a 5-year term. 

-- Retiree 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, retiree said:

My thinking stands corrected, thanks ????    I see that Bangkok Bank transfers bond book income to one's Bangkok Bank savings account, but whether or not that can be an either-signature joint account (some banks allow, some do not), I imagine that the bond owner dying would gum up the works.  

 

Can anybody who has done this please comment on what, exactly, they gave the BOI to verify overseas annuity income?   I'm completely ignorant on this.  When you buy an annuity, do you get a document stating the payout and duration that the BOI accepts?   I'd assume they want a 5-year term. 

-- Retiree 

What BoI will require is documents from the entity that pays the annuity/pension income and associated tax docs that entity will issue each year.   Example: your annuity paying entity is going to issue some statement/benefit letter once a month/quarter/semi-annually/yearly where they state how much they are paying you "AND" each year they will issue a tax document (like a form 1099R Distribution from Pensions/Annuities) unless the payment is totally tax free where no tax doc might be issued.   

 

Below is weblink is to the BoI "required docs" for a LTR Wealthy Pensioner application and snapshot from that weblink regards Evidence of Income.   In the first statement they are talking tax returns from various countries like PND 90/91 which is a Thailand tax return, Form 1040 which is a U.S. tax return, SA100 that is a UK tax return, etc.  In the second statement they start talking statement/benefit letters, specific tax form like the U.S. 1099R.

 

Take a thorough look at the BoI LTR website especially under the Application Process pull down menu....lots of detailed info there like the info in below weblink/snapshot.   In closing in my particular case when I initially submitted my LTR Pensioner application is just submitted pension statements showing my monthly pensions payments from several U.S. agencies....these statements gave very detailed info, but about a month after submitting my application BoI asked for my latest U.S. tax return in an Additional Document Request.  I provided my last tax return and shortly after doing so the BoI approved my LTR Pensioner visa.    

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/Required-Documents-for-Qualification-Endorsement-for-Wealthy-pensioner-16-03-66.pdf

[retiree]

Thank you for your detailed response.   The particular problem I'm trying to solve is this:

 -- I'd like to apply next year, 2024.

 -- I'll only have 1/2 year Social Security this year, 2023.   I'm hoping that it will be clear to BOI from my SSA award letter (and part-year 1099-R) that 2024 SS will be over $40K, even though I won't have that full-year 1099-R until 2025. 

 -- I won't have any required (and taxed) IRA distribution for a few more years.

I would think that many (US, at least) retirees in the 62-73 age range are in a similar position. 

 

Topping up to $80K by buying an immediate annuity that pays $40K/year with after-tax cash earns a few percent, whereas withdrawing $40K/year of taxable money from an IRA each year would cost a few times that.   

 

But I'd think that I'll only get something like a 1099-INT that shows the taxable portion (<5%) of each annuity distribution -- not the full amount of each check -- in 2025.   

 

I'd hope that the BOI would recognize that the return of the investment portion (specified in the immediate annuity statement) is guaranteed, passive income as well.   But, I guess it's possible that nobody on this site has used (or tried) an immediate annuity yet.  

-- Retiree 

 

[K2938]

10 minutes ago, retiree said:

Topping up to $80K by buying an immediate annuity that pays $40K/year with after-tax cash earns a few percent, whereas withdrawing $40K/year of taxable money from an IRA each year would cost a few times that. 

Instead of going down the costly way of buying an annuity try to convince the BOI that with your cash, assuming you have this, you can self-fund you.  So assuming you lack $40k per annum, show them that you have 5 x $40k in additional cash/funds (since the initial visa is only issued for 5 years with an additional financial verification after 5 years) or, if this does not work, that you have 10 x $40k in additional cash/funds (since it is a 10 year visa).  The BOI will probably be screaming that they need to see an annuity income, but it just does not make any sense that if this money were in your pension plan and you withdrew funds of that amount, they would count this and otherwise they would not.

[Pib]

1 hour ago, retiree said:

Thank you for your detailed response.   The particular problem I'm trying to solve is this:

 -- I'd like to apply next year, 2024.

 -- I'll only have 1/2 year Social Security this year, 2023.   I'm hoping that it will be clear to BOI from my SSA award letter (and part-year 1099-R) that 2024 SS will be over $40K, even though I won't have that full-year 1099-R until 2025. 

 -- I won't have any required (and taxed) IRA distribution for a few more years.

I would think that many (US, at least) retirees in the 62-73 age range are in a similar position. 

 

Topping up to $80K by buying an immediate annuity that pays $40K/year with after-tax cash earns a few percent, whereas withdrawing $40K/year of taxable money from an IRA each year would cost a few times that.   

 

But I'd think that I'll only get something like a 1099-INT that shows the taxable portion (<5%) of each annuity distribution -- not the full amount of each check -- in 2025.   

 

I'd hope that the BOI would recognize that the return of the investment portion (specified in the immediate annuity statement) is guaranteed, passive income as well.   But, I guess it's possible that nobody on this site has used (or tried) an immediate annuity yet.  

-- Retiree 

 

 

The info in below 31 Dec 2022 post and a BoI LTR weblink may answer your question.   

 

Additionally, for a LTR Pensioner application you only need to meet the income requirements "as of the LTR application date" which means you don't need to have 12 months worth of pension/annuity statements under your belt to apply/to be approved for a pensioner visa.  However, the BoI will still want to see your latest income tax return which may or may not reflect any pension/annuity you started receiving after your last tax return.   

 

Also, BoI understands some pensions/annuities may be partially or completely tax free which means they would only partially or not appear at all on a tax return.  And this means the pensions/annuity amounts shown on your tax return may not match-up with pension/annuity periodic statements which show the taxable and/or non-taxable amounts....higher amounts than might be shown on your tax return.  Example: people who draw Veteran Administration (VA) pensions receive those pensions totally tax free....no 1099R are issued....VA pensions are not taxable/reportable on income tax returns.  Heck, even a Social Security pension is only partially taxable.  In cases like this your pension/annuity statements provide the primary and accurate income proof versus your tax return.   

.

 

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/index.html#what

 

[retiree]

Thanks again.  I may have been over-thinking this because single-payment, immediate, fixed-term annuities (as opposed to the deferred, long-term, retirement kind) seem to be a rare exception in Thailand.  And nobody has mentioned using one for LTR.

 

That said, this discussion has helped clarify the specific question I'll want to ask BOI before buying the instrument and applying.  Presumably they will confirm that if I (or my IRA) buys an immediate annuity (to be paid at the end of each year), the contract alone will be sufficient evidence for that part of the $80K income stream.

-- Retiree 

[Lost Nomad]

Reference:  "This new Thai visa could change your life" video by Retired Working for You.  Timestamp:  14:05

 

BOI representative Miss Kantarot states that any passive income shortfall (80K - SS amount) * 10 in a retirement account can bump up your annual total to meet the 80K passive income requirement. She doesn't state that you actually need to buy the annuity.  It seems like just by having sufficient funds in the account is "self funding" the income.  I'd clarify this when you communicate with the BOI.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Lost Nomad

[ThailandRyan]

10 minutes ago, Lost Nomad said:

Reference:  "This new Thai visa could change your life" video by Retired Working for You.  Timestamp:  14:05

 

BOI representative Miss Kantarot states that any passive income shortfall (80K - SS amount) * 10 in a retirement account can bump up your annual total to meet the 80K passive income requirement. She doesn't state that you actually need to buy the annuity.  It seems like just by having sufficient funds in the account is "self funding" the income.  I'd clarify this when you communicate with the BOI.

As a side note to the above referenced video, the information is from the beginning of the new LTR Process.  Within the past few months the BOI has codified how the shortfall must be covered, and many are finding they need to purchase the annuity or to use property (Condo) as the backstop.  I would caution one to rely only on information they obtained from a BOI representative, in todays time frame, to ensure they have the right information. @Pibis a good source of information as he does have his finger on the pulse for this class of Visa.

Edited May 8, 2023 by ThailandRyan

[Pink Mist]

A series of stalking emoji's placed on the OP's initial post and others have been removed. The OP has asked a valid question in his opening post, and there is nothing funny or confusing regarding what he has asked.

 

11. You will not troll or stalk other members by misusing forum posts, private messages, reactions, emojis or by any other means.

[retiree]

5 hours ago, Lost Nomad said:

It seems like just by having sufficient funds in the account is "self funding" the income. 

Thank you for posting this thought, which describes the path the BOI does allow for meeting the insurance requirement.  At the same time I accept that if the BOI wanted to let some kind of asset minimum be used to meet the income requirement, they could have done so in the same way.  It may be that:

 

1)  it is not permitted by the government's enabling legislation founding the program, so it isn't on the table,

2)  it was considered by the BOI, but was rejected for reasons we are not privy to (and which are their internal business, not ours).  Possibly they felt the $250K investment alternative was reasonable, preferable, and easier to vet. 

3)  it is being allowed informally, on a case-by-case basis, after a review of the applicant's situation.

 

Has anybody reading this thread ever asked the BOI if showing a sufficiently large balance in a retirement account (say, $400-800K to meet a $40K yearly passive income shortfall) would be acceptable to close the $80K gap?

-- Retiree 

[Pib]

9 hours ago, Lost Nomad said:

Reference:  "This new Thai visa could change your life" video by Retired Working for You.  Timestamp:  14:05

 

BOI representative Miss Kantarot states that any passive income shortfall (80K - SS amount) * 10 in a retirement account can bump up your annual total to meet the 80K passive income requirement. She doesn't state that you actually need to buy the annuity.  It seems like just by having sufficient funds in the account is "self funding" the income.  I'd clarify this when you communicate with the BOI.

She does stress the funds can't be in just any ol' account but must be in a "pension/annuity" type fund.  To me she is saying say if a person say has $500K (or whatever big amount) in a standard mutual/equity fund, bank savings account, stocks, chest of gold coins, etc., that would "not" qualify for the Wealthy Pensioner category...but if that $500K was in a "pension/annuity" type account in would qualify.  A pension/annuity type account would be somethings like a traditional/Roth IRA, Beneficiary IRA, 401K, insurance annuity, etc.

 

[retiree]

Thank you Pib for the screen capture, and my apologies to Lost Nomad -- I confess that I did not last through the entire YouTube video, which contains this link at the bottom of its Show More section.  I have transcribed a minute of it, below (light editing for clarity):

 

14:05  Can you qualify with retirement savings?

Chris: ... but they have a big stock portfolio in an IRA or RRSP ...  [but] haven't started to take that money out yet. 
Ms. K: So, if you don't have that regular flow of cash coming in every year, but instead you have this big amount of money ... it's your pension fund, basically, so what you need to do is show us that the total amount of the fund covers the 10-year period. 
Chris: So say $800K or a million ... even if it's in your home country.  Then you might still qualify.
Ms. K: Exactly. But let me stress that it needs to be a pension or annuity fund.
Chris: That's fantastic. 

 

Bearing ThailandRyan's cautionary comment in mind, it does appear that this is an informal way to qualify, on a case-by-case basis, that is not listed on the BOI site.    Has anybody reading this thread made use of this method for closing the $80K gap yet?

-- Retiree

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by retiree

[Lost Nomad]

6 hours ago, retiree said:

Thank you for posting this thought, which describes the path the BOI does allow for meeting the insurance requirement.

 

Is this what you are doing to comply with the insurance requirement? I have 100K held as mutual funds/ETFs in retirement accounts (IRA/401K) and would be happy to hear that the BOI is accepting proof of those funds not held as (1) cash or (2) annuity.  If statements with the current balance &  historical balance meet the documentation requirements, that would be great. 

[Pib]

1 minute ago, Lost Nomad said:

Is this what you are doing to comply with the insurance requirement? I have 100K held as mutual funds/ETFs in retirement accounts (IRA/401K) and would be happy to hear that the BOI is accepting proof of those funds not held as (1) cash or (2) annuity.  If statements with the current balance &  historical balance meet the documentation requirements, that would be great. 

I think what you will find from posts in the LTR mega thread is some applicants where able to use their investment/brokerage/IRA type accounts to meet the $100K USD self-insure medical requirement while BoI told other applicants  it must be a "cash" account like a checking/savings acct in a bank.    And from looking at posts in the LTR mega thread BoI "may" have initially accepted $100K from investment/brokerage/IRA type accts for the first 3 to 4 months of the LTR program but now may only accept bank cash accounts like a checking/saving/money market/etc., type account.   The BoI regulation regarding health insurance is below....I underlined the self-insure part.

[K2938]

15 hours ago, Lost Nomad said:

Reference:  "This new Thai visa could change your life" video by Retired Working for You.  Timestamp:  14:05

 

BOI representative Miss Kantarot states that any passive income shortfall (80K - SS amount) * 10 in a retirement account can bump up your annual total to meet the 80K passive income requirement. She doesn't state that you actually need to buy the annuity.  It seems like just by having sufficient funds in the account is "self funding" the income.  I'd clarify this when you communicate with the BOI.

Is there anybody who actually succeeded with this in real life?

[captpkapoor]

Please clarify:-

1) If I had purchased my condo in Bangkok for approx 10 M thb in 2013, and have ownership documents in my name, would that go towards meeting one of their requirements? 

2) I do have passive income, but that is in my home country i.e. my pension and other rental proceeds etc come to my bank account at home; so I can buy the govt bonds here to meet the requirements, of what value do I need? And what is the interest on them, paid out at what frequency?

 

Many thanks for your help.

[Pib]

1 hour ago, captpkapoor said:

Please clarify:-

1) If I had purchased my condo in Bangkok for approx 10 M thb in 2013, and have ownership documents in my name, would that go towards meeting one of their requirements? 

2) I do have passive income, but that is in my home country i.e. my pension and other rental proceeds etc come to my bank account at home; so I can buy the govt bonds here to meet the requirements, of what value do I need? And what is the interest on them, paid out at what frequency?

 

Many thanks for your help.

1.  Yes.  And to prove the actual value it's not based on "what you think the condo is now worth" but based on Dept of Land documentation such is the OrChor 16 document which is a document you and the seller completed during the condo purchase and states the agreed to selling price.    Below is a partial snapshot of a OrChor16 which includes the paragraph noting the agreed to price.   In the BoI Checklist of Required Docs you'll also see the OrChor16 as one of the required docs when using your residence as proof of investment in Thailand.

 

2.   It does not matter if your pension/fixed income is home country or Thailand based....in fact, I expect most LTR Wealthy Pensioner applicants are solely using home country generated pension/fixed income (I sure did)....say for a Wealthy Pensioner application of at least $80K USD equivalent/year.   If you have a shortfall in meeting the minimum LTR income requirements via pension/fixed income, like saying having between $40K but less than $80K you can make up the difference/shortfall via purchase of govt bonds of at least $250K USD equivalent for at least 5 years, Foreign Direct Investment, or Property Investment.  See the BoI LTR weblink/snapshot at bottom for summary details...and the BoI LTR Required Docs Checklist below shows more details. The BoI LTR webpage has full info in various areas....various level of detail.

 

Of course bonds can have varying interest rates, maturity length, and interest payment intervals,  but right now Thai govt bonds are typically paying approximately 2.50-3.0%.   Like a 23 Apr 2023 Bangkok Post news article titled, "Government bonds worth Bt40B readied" said a 7 year govt bond would pay 2.70% per year with interest paid every three months....and a 10 year bond would pay 2.60% per year with interest paid every 6 months.   Now keep in in mind that 15% of each interest payment will be withheld for tax....like getting a Bt10K gross interest payment will result in Bt1.5K being withheld for tax resulting in a net of Bt8.5K.  But you can get that  Bt1.5K withholding tax refunded each year by filing a Thai tax return/refund request which quite a few foreigners do who have tax withheld from their Thai bank deposit interest payments.

 

 

 

OrChor16 partial snapshat

 

 

 

BoI weblink to and partial snapshot of Wealthy Pensioner Required Docs

https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/Required-Documents-for-Qualification-Endorsement-for-Wealthy-pensioner-16-03-66.pdf

 

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/index.html#what

 

 

[Pib]

Oh, I forgot to mention if you go the govt bond route you need to consider if the bond maturity length will be of sufficient length to also satisfy the LTR visa "mid term extension" (i.e., when it's time to apply for the 2nd 5 years as the 10 yr LTR visa is really a 5+5 year visa).   Otherwise, you may need to buy another bond to get the extension.

 

If you buy a govt bond to satisfy the initial issue to the LTR visa and say the bond maturity is less than 10 years, when it comes time to apply for the LTR extension at the 5 year point, that bond probably will not have at least 5 years left on it come extension application time..  So, a person would need to buy another bond of at least 5 years at time of application...switch to direct investment....or switch to a property investment.   Or maybe their pension/fixed income is now at/above 80K USD/year which means no shortfall needs to be made-up via govt bond/direct investment/property.

 

I asked BoI about this around a month ago and above is basically the answer I got.  

[Yumthai]

@Pib

Regarding the two links you provide, I find confusing information.

 

PDF link: "Individual income tax return such as P.N.D. 90/91, BIR60, Form 1040, SA100, T1 General
etc. showing income of no less than 80,000 or 40,000 USD per year in the past 2 years"

 

Second link: "Personal income of at least USD 80,000/year at the time of application"

Also, no mention of tax return.

 

What is actually required?

 

Regarding Personal income under LTR: "Wealthy Pensioners’ definition is “unearned income such as a pension, rental, capital gain, dividend, etc”. Earned income (salary) will not be considered eligible income for LTR: Wealthy Pensioners application."

 

So income will qualify if either:

- one has sold and made enough capital gains on stocks/his own company (I assume from the past tax year?), or

- one has got enough dividends from stocks/his own company (I assume from the past tax year?) ...?

 

 

[Pib]

The two links/snapshots are from various areas of the BoI LTR website....some areas just offer a "broad/high level" overview (like the 2nd link) and others more/full details/fine print (like the 1st PDF link).  So be sure to looks at the various areas of the BoI LTR website like the BoI LTR Laws & Regulation area, the Required Documents area, and the summary/broad overview areas to see the whole LTR picture.   But the Required Docs is going to give the most detail.

 

For a Wealthy Pensioner application although the most recent Required Docs checklist ask for the past two years of income tax returns I think the BoI really only needs 1 year's worth....although other LTR types like say Wealthy Global Citizen may require 2 year's worth...and they are now looking for more than just the core tax returns but also some of the unique tax docs that supplement a tax return like those docs which report pensions/dividends.

 

One would need to prove pension/fixed income payments with the associated docs.  Like for a U.S. person if they are receiving a social security/military retirement pension they have monthly annuity statements which can usually be downloaded at anytime from their pension paying entity "and" also annual IRS forms like 1099R, 1099DIV, 1099INT to additionally prove the pension/fixed income.  
 

For U.S. folks Cap Gains like from the sale of stocks/mutual funds is usually reported on a 1099B IRS form....like a person who is frequent stock trader...this is not fixed income.  Now when the person receives annual/semi annual distributions of dividends/cap again that is usually reported on a 1099DIV Dividends form....that is fixed, reoccurring income.

 

Now for people who do not receive sufficient annual pension/fixed income like from a pension, 401K, IRA, etc., but do have BIG investments as addressed in the LTR mega thread "supposedly"  BoI LTR will look at your reoccurring pension/fixed income distributions and then see if any shortfall can be made-up by dividing a big investment/savings acct you may have by 10 (for 10 years length of LTR visa) to cover the shortfall in pension/fixed income.  But what the BoI is really looking for is pension/fixed income for a Wealthy Pensioner.

 

Like say you were getting $50K per year from a pension/IRA/401K....that leaves you $30K short of the $80K/year requirements....but if a you identify a BIG savings/investment of say $300K that could supplement your pensions/fixed income, well, $300K divided by 10 equals $30K per year added to the $50K pension to equal $80K per year.

 

Remember, for the Wealthy Pensioner income requirement the BoI is looking primarily at pension/fixed income income...stable, reoccurring income.....then any shortfall has some ways to make-up the difference like govt bonds, property, maybe the $30K example I gave above.  

[oldcpu]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:56 PM, oldcpu said:

I purchased 2-million THB of Thai government bonds via Bangkok Bank so to 'top up' my investment in Thailand for the LTR "Wealthy Pensioner" 40K US$ equivalent passive income per year.

 

I was given a bond Book from the Bangkok Bank.  I provided copy of the Bond book pages to BoI as part of my LTR application, but then just over a week ago BoI asked for a 'Bond Certificate' instead of copies of the Bond Book.  One nominally has to pay about 200 baht or so more to get a Bond Certificate, BUT given Thai government bonds are now 'scriptless bonds' the Bond Certificates are not nominally provided (unless specifically asked for).  FURTHER, I discovered most Bangkok Bank branches do NOT know how to apply for a Thai government bond certificate.

 

In the end, Bangkok bank refused to give me a Bond Certificate for a Thai government bond that had already been issued !

 

Instead they wrote for me a one page letter ( "to whom it may concern" ) stating I was the owner of said Thai government bond (on the date of the letter) and further they added some computer typed information on the last page of my official Bond Book, that provided the bond maturity information (duration, maturity date ... ) .  I then scanned that information (both the letter and the Bond Book information), and uploaded it to BoI.  The next day we phoned BoI and they confirmed that information was adequate for part of their requirements for Investment in Thailand proof.

[Yumthai]

Thanks Pib for your detailed answer.

 

If I understand you well a tax report seems thus mandatory.

So if you get $80K+/year in dividends and pay no tax (simply because it's earned abroad from a country that doesn't tax it and not remitted in Thailand the year it has been paid), this income won't qualify.

 

[Pib]

20 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Thanks Pib for your detailed answer.

 

If I understand you well a tax report seems thus mandatory.

So if you get $80K+/year in dividends and pay no tax (simply because it's earned abroad from a country that doesn't tax it and not remitted in Thailand the year it has been paid), this income won't qualify.

 

It "will" qualify. 

 

 I think you are under the misconception the income/pension/dividends/fixed income needs to be earned in Thailand and/or taxed in Thailand-----no!    The income proof you provide can come from any country (ies), any source....BoI just needs to see income evidence you are making X-amount somewhere on planet Earth.  Heck, you may not even being living in Thailand yet, but just planning to retire to Thailand under an LTR Pensioner visa.   And the BoI is looking at "gross income" before any deductions like taxes, etc.   

 

And whether your income/dividends/etc., is taxed where ever you file income taxes those dividends would be shown directly or indirectly on the tax return.  Or if your particular home country tax return does not show non-taxable income then the other income evidence you will provide like an annuity/bank statement, etc., will be your core income evidence.   The tax return is really only another way to help prove income, prove "type" of income,  and maybe just to show BoI you are a tax filing/paying citizen in good standing from country XYZ.  

 

 

[Yumthai]

If you are already living and being tax resident in Thailand (you just need to be present at least 180 days/year in Thailand) and tax resident nowhere else, earn dividends from for instance US stocks/ETFs held on a broker registered outside Thailand and do not remit this money the year it has been earned then you have nothing to declare in Thailand and could eventually end up paying tax nowhere (except 15% WHT applied on US stocks dividend).

You can't show any tax return but of course can show bank/broker statements.

 

In that case, would this income qualify? I assume it's better to directly ask BOI in order to have a definitive answer.