Salt Chlorinator in Winter Mode

[UWEB]

Since I've got my new Saltwater Pool I have used a Service Company for the Pool. Around four weeks ago I've started to look into what they are doing and was quite shocked. Not only that the Pool Water was complete out of Balance, I have found a Snake and some Frogs in the Balance Tank and the Overflow Trench was never cleaned and full of green Spots( Algae?). As it is now they can't get the PH below 8 beside that they are adding Acid twice a week. Additional I found that the Chlorinator is running in Winter Mode all the time. Is this correct? Or is it a reason for that Chlorine is always low in the Pool?

[Doctor Tom]

I had fitted a UV system to my pool.  Almost maintenance free and fresh water.  I have no idea why anyone still fits a salt chlorinate system.  I haven't had to chemically adjust the balance in my pool for over 3 years, just the very occasionally algicide at certain times of the year. Ditch the chlorinator and fit UV. It will save you lots of work and money. 

[UWEB]

Nice to know that you are having a UV System, but your Answer doesn't answer my questions.

[yankyoakum]

In states the salt chlorinator went into winter mode at 60F and didn't work, above that it came back on and made chlorine.  You didn't mention what brand chlorinator but suspect there may be a switch in the chlorinator panel that needs toggled... Yellow algae is really tough and copper sulfate may be needed to get rid of it along with good cleaning and change the filter if you have a pleated one. 

[Bagwain]

Most likely a winter switch is on. That is the reason for the low Cl. However it is the CL made by the cells that are normally the reason for the ph being high and needing acid to bring it down. Something else is adding to the increase in ph.

Is it a new or old pool?

What is the final surface of the pool?

If tiles & if so, is the grout gone?

 

 

[Doctor Tom]

11 hours ago, UWEB said:

Nice to know that you are having a UV System, but your Answer doesn't answer my questions.

I have answered you, get rid of it.  It's an answer, but you may not like it. 

[Bagwain]

12 minutes ago, Doctor Tom said:

I have answered you, get rid of it.  It's an answer, but you may not like it. 

It wasn't an answer, it was an opinion on another system. Your experience with UV may be good, however I have experienced many dozens of commercial & private pools in 3 countries that have had bad experiences with UV technology!

[UWEB]

13 minutes ago, Doctor Tom said:

I have answered you, get rid of it.  It's an answer, but you may not like it. 

You have given a comment, not an answer on my Question. Better to keep quite when not having a useful Information.

[UWEB]

25 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

Most likely a winter switch is on. That is the reason for the low Cl. However it is the CL made by the cells that are normally the reason for the ph being high and needing acid to bring it down. Something else is adding to the increase in ph.

Is it a new or old pool?

What is the final surface of the pool?

If tiles & if so, is the grout gone?

 

 

It's a 8 month old pool with Tiles, the grouts are in perfect conditions. This morning have switched off the Winter Mode, let's see how the Water quality is later today or tomorrow morning.

[Bagwain]

4 minutes ago, UWEB said:

It's a 8 month old pool with Tiles, the grouts are in perfect conditions. This morning have switched off the Winter Mode, let's see how the Water quality is later today or tomorrow morning.

You may need to up the quanity of acid being dosed. Example - 100 k litre pool would need approx 3/4 to 1 litre acid twice a week in a salt pool. 

[UWEB]

42 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

You may need to up the quanity of acid being dosed. Example - 100 k litre pool would need approx 3/4 to 1 litre acid twice a week in a salt pool. 

OK, thanks for the useful Information. Pool Service has done it yesterday, just have tested the Water and PH is down to 7.7. First time below 8 within last 3 weeks.

[Thaiger1]

Uweb, the pH being so high prevents chlorine being produced which is why you will get algae. They are adding acid in an attempt to bring down the pH level but obviously it is not enough. Answer is to get the pH down low enough to let the chlorinator do its job and produce chlorine.

[JBChiangRai]

You should never be operating in Winter mode in Thailand, not even in Chiang Rai in the cool season.

 

I have built a few pools here and the tip I would give anyone contemplating it is use granite slabs instead of tiles and there is much less grouting, probably 100 times less. It won't cost any more.  Granite lasts a lifetime, it's slightly porous so your concrete mix needs a waterproofer in it (but it should have one anyway).  Granite won't craze like tiles do after a decade or so.

 

Don't use marble, it dissolves in low Ph.

[UWEB]

1 hour ago, Thaiger1 said:

Uweb, the pH being so high prevents chlorine being produced which is why you will get algae. They are adding acid in an attempt to bring down the pH level but obviously it is not enough. Answer is to get the pH down low enough to let the chlorinator do its job and produce chlorine.

Thanks, have changed the Chlorinator from Winter to normal mode already this morning, will test the Water again tomorrow to see where I am.

[UWEB]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

You should never be operating in Winter mode in Thailand, not even in Chiang Rai in the cool season.

 

I have built a few pools here and the tip I would give anyone contemplating it is use granite slabs instead of tiles and there is much less grouting, probably 100 times less. It won't cost any more.  Granite lasts a lifetime, it's slightly porous so your concrete mix needs a waterproofer in it (but it should have one anyway).  Granite won't craze like tiles do after a decade or so.

 

Don't use marble, it dissolves in low Ph.

Thanks, the Set Up was done by the Pool Company and I never had a look into what they have done till the problems have started. This morning I have changed the Chlorinator to normal mode.

[MrJ2U]

16 hours ago, Doctor Tom said:

I had fitted a UV system to my pool.  Almost maintenance free and fresh water.  I have no idea why anyone still fits a salt chlorinate system.  I haven't had to chemically adjust the balance in my pool for over 3 years, just the very occasionally algicide at certain times of the year. Ditch the chlorinator and fit UV. It will save you lots of work and money. 

Expensive option to ditch a 50,000 chlorinator to very exensive UV system.

 

Salt chlorinators are great and used by most resorts in Thailand.

 

However, when you've got a problem with the Salt Chlorinator it can be expensive.

 

UV system sounds interesting though.   

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, MrJ2U said:

Expensive option to ditch a 50,000 chlorinator to very exensive UV system.

 

Salt chlorinators are great and used by most resorts in Thailand.

 

However, when you've got a problem with the Salt Chlorinator it can be expensive.

 

UV system sounds interesting though.   

 

 

Salt Chlorinators do fail, either the electronics fail, or the chlorine generating cell wears out.  If it's the former, you can replace it with a battery charger, for best results use an adjustable one and reverse the polarity every week.  If the cell has worn out, you need to replace it.

 

The electronics is basically a constant current device with auto-reversing polarity.

 

Another tip I would give to buying a salt chlorinator, is go for the one with the biggest output you can afford.  you can run the pump less and save a lot of money.  One of my neighbours replaced their 25g Cl/Hr for a 50g Cl/Hr and halved their electric bill for the pool from 1,800 to 875 THB/month.

[3STTW]

I feel for the OP, when I bought my place the pool had apparently been cared for by a 'professional' maintenance company. When we moved in, we decided to keep them on but it didn't take long to realize that the pool had serious problems.

 

First problem was the water was always misty - never quite clear. The pool guys said I need to speak to the PWA. The first time I swam in it my eyes were stinging like hell so I went and bought my own pH meter and, like UWEB, the pH was through the roof. Second, the pump was running but hardly moving any water so they had adjusted the timer to run 20 hours/day.

 

Long story short; I terminated the maintenance contract. Over the next few weeks, I discovered that just about everything in the pump room was phukt. The filtration sand hadn't been changed since new (10+ years), the chlorinator was dead, and they had rebuilt the pump without the internal seals - so that was a goner too.

 

@Bagwain will also tell you about my pool leak which was, at it's worst, using 100 tonnes of water per month! Yep, it went from 145m3 to 27m3 just by fixing the gutter.

 

After a brief learning curve and Bht120k in new kit, I now take care of the pool myself. It only takes an hour per week and it definitely worth the effort.

 

In line with @JBChiangRai's advice, I upgraded the chlorinator to cope with the actual volume of water, the original was about 25% under specified. At the same time we changed to glass filtration media and the outcome was astonishing, super crystal clear water

 

UV filters are a non-starter - they only kill bacteria when they're in sight of the UV emitter, ergo the rest of the pool is free to grow uninhibited clusters of bacteria anywhere else. Chlorine kills them wherever they might be hiding.

 

And, in my experience, don't use liquid acid to lower the pH. The pH Minus powder does a great job and it doesn't dissolve your pool grout.

 

 

 

 

[MrJ2U]

2 hours ago, 3STTW said:

@Bagwain will also tell you about my pool leak which was, at it's worst, using 100 tonnes of water per month! Yep, it went from 145m3 to 27m3 just by fixing the gutter.

Can explain "The Gutter".  The overflow area? 

 

 

 

[MrJ2U]

2 hours ago, 3STTW said:

I feel for the OP, when I bought my place the pool had apparently been cared for by a 'professional' maintenance company. When we moved in, we decided to keep them on but it didn't take long to realize that the pool had serious problems.

 

First problem was the water was always misty - never quite clear. The pool guys said I need to speak to the PWA. The first time I swam in it my eyes were stinging like hell so I went and bought my own pH meter and, like UWEB, the pH was through the roof. Second, the pump was running but hardly moving any water so they had adjusted the timer to run 20 hours/day.

 

Long story short; I terminated the maintenance contract. Over the next few weeks, I discovered that just about everything in the pump room was phukt. The filtration sand hadn't been changed since new (10+ years), the chlorinator was dead, and they had rebuilt the pump without the internal seals - so that was a goner too.

 

@Bagwain will also tell you about my pool leak which was, at it's worst, using 100 tonnes of water per month! Yep, it went from 145m3 to 27m3 just by fixing the gutter.

 

After a brief learning curve and Bht120k in new kit, I now take care of the pool myself. It only takes an hour per week and it definitely worth the effort.

 

In line with @JBChiangRai's advice, I upgraded the chlorinator to cope with the actual volume of water, the original was about 25% under specified. At the same time we changed to glass filtration media and the outcome was astonishing, super crystal clear water

 

UV filters are a non-starter - they only kill bacteria when they're in sight of the UV emitter, ergo the rest of the pool is free to grow uninhibited clusters of bacteria anywhere else. Chlorine kills them wherever they might be hiding.

 

And, in my experience, don't use liquid acid to lower the pH. The pH Minus powder does a great job and it doesn't dissolve your pool grout.

 

 

 

 

Some good tips.

 

I'll be using glass next time I replace the sand. 

[JBChiangRai]

10 hours ago, 3STTW said:

And, in my experience, don't use liquid acid to lower the pH. The pH Minus powder does a great job and it doesn't dissolve your pool grout.

 

 

I think grout is a carbonate and any acidic Ph is bad for the grout.

 

I am concerned about the chemistry of Ph- powder, I don't know what it is, there are lots of things you can put in your pool that will eventually screw up the water so that you have to partially drain and refill, TriChlor etc.  Ph- powder could be turning into something that may cause problems eventually. I suspect it's Citric Acid which is an organic compound and may leave something unwanted in the water.

 

With liquid acid, it is HydroChloric Acid (Muriatic if you're from the former colonies), formula HCl, it doesn't turn into anything you don't want in your pool.

[Bagwain]

23 hours ago, Thaiger1 said:

Uweb, the pH being so high prevents chlorine being produced which is why you will get algae. They are adding acid in an attempt to bring down the pH level but obviously it is not enough. Answer is to get the pH down low enough to let the chlorinator do its job and produce chlorine.

The chlorinator doesn't stop working when the ph is high. When ph is high the CL is weaker. When you lower the ph the Cl will become stronger. It's all about chemistry. 

 

No matter what acid you use, if the ph is kept between 7.4 - 7.6 you will get longivity out of your grout and slow down the degridation of your surface. Unless the builder has used bathroom grout! (They Do)

 

It's also possible that the overflow gutters and the balance tank haven't been waterproofed. I have come across this a few times here in Thailand. (Builder saving $$$) This would explain the high ph!

 

MrJ2U When you want glass, contact me has I supply. There are different types on market - "Eco Clear" recycled plate glass (See attached) & recycled bottleglass. The later is ???? 

 

Eco Clear wetinfo.pdf

[UWEB]

Wondering what are your chemistry Levels in your Saltwater Pool?

 

PH 7.2-7.6?

Salinity 2700-3400 ppm?

Free Chlorine 1-3 ppm?

Alkalinity 80-120 ppm?

 

Anything else to be checked?

[Bagwain]

2 hours ago, UWEB said:

Wondering what are your chemistry Levels in your Saltwater Pool?

 

PH 7.2-7.6?

Salinity 2700-3400 ppm?

Free Chlorine 1-3 ppm?

Alkalinity 80-120 ppm?

 

Anything else to be checked?

In tropical & humid conditions it's always best to keep your salt levels @ 4,000 ppm.

 

[UWEB]

This morning I have opened the Balance Tank and found below growing in some places. Anybody an Idea, looks to me like Sprouts but not sure.

 

[Bagwain]

6 hours ago, UWEB said:

This morning I have opened the Balance Tank and found below growing in some places. Anybody an Idea, looks to me like Sprouts but not sure.

 

Yep mung beans! Could eat but I wouldn't! ????

The surface hasn't been waterproofed as also probably the gutter.

As I suspected - There is the reason for the high ph.

 

[UWEB]

2 hours ago, Bagwain said:

Yep mung beans! Could eat but I wouldn't! ????

The surface hasn't been waterproofed as also probably the gutter.

As I suspected - There is the reason for the high ph.

 

Thanks a lot for your input. What for alternatives do I have here? Get Tank and Gutter rendered or get Tiles in Tank and Gutter?

[Bagwain]

13 hours ago, UWEB said:

Thanks a lot for your input. What for alternatives do I have here? Get Tank and Gutter rendered or get Tiles in Tank and Gutter?

Either, the choice is yours. However tiling is over kill.

Cheaper & quicker to waterproof render. As we did for 3STTW 

Where are you located?

[UWEB]

I'm in Sam Roi Yot/ Prachuap Khiri Khan, a bit far away from Pattaya.

[UWEB]

Here an update on the situation. Builder told that the correct concrete was used while building the pool. Nevertheless,we have rendered the Balance Tank new and put new Tiles in the Gutter Trench. Left all drying 3 days ,filled up the Tank again and let the Pool pump running for 60 hours. There after I have tested the Water and added some Muriatic Acid to reduce PH. This was down next day to 7.9 and two days later to 7.7. Since it went up again and is now always between 8.1 and 8.4 beside I'm adding twice a week 1 liter of Muriatic Acid. Not sure what else I can do now to get the PH down to normal Levels,any suggestions?