Zelensky hits out at "absurd" NATO

[Social Media]

 

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has bemoaned the lack of a timetable for future accession to NATO on Tuesday, as he confirmed he would attend the alliance's landmark summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, to ensure his country was treated with "respect."

The prospect of future Ukrainian NATO membership is looming over the meeting in Vilnius, with Ukraine and its stronger supporters urging allies to set out a concrete path to accession, most likely when the hot phase of the ongoing war with Russia ends

[jvs]

yes and maybe he is right.

Other countries are saying that a country at war can not become a member of NATO.

But the Ukraine is not at war,it is just a special military operation.

So make them a member and together kick the russians back home.

Erdogan has chosen his side,he is now siding with the winners.

Took him awhile but he realizes now that by backing the membership

of Sweden will help him into the EU.

Man o man will putin ever be pisxed off now.

 

 

[LosLobo]

As above but includes all the other latest News from the NATO meeting today.

 

NATO Latest: Zelenskiy Attacks NATO Resistance on Membership Bid

 

'Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy scolded NATO for not setting a clear timeline on his country’s bid to join the military alliance, even as its chief, Jens Stoltenberg said he will push for a fast-track process for Kyiv'.

 

NATO Summit Latest News Updates: July 11, 2023 - Bloomberg (archive.md)

 

 

 

[Caldera]

How could there be a time-line at this point? Did the Russians confirm when they'll withdraw their troops? Didn't think so.

[heybruce]

Let's keep in mind what a defensive alliance is supposed to accomplish--it is supposed to make all members of the alliance more secure.

 

How will admitting a nation at war with Russia accomplish that?

[pegman]

The Ukraine military is pretty much out of air defence munitions and 155mm shells. There has been little direct contact fighting between the sides from the start. They have been bombing the hell out of each other instead. A couple days ago the German English language service DW had a report from a hospital near the front. The Ukrainian doctor interviewed stated 2% of casualties were gunshot wounds. All the rest, 98%, caused by sharapnel. Ukraine is about done. Little wonder their leader tried so hard to get NATO directly involved. It was clearly out of desperation. Will Putin be satisfied with the Russian gains or continue on to Odesa and Kharkiv? 

 

 

[rabas]

On 7/11/2023 at 11:15 PM, heybruce said:

Let's keep in mind what a defensive alliance is supposed to accomplish--it is supposed to make all members of the alliance more secure.

 

How will admitting a nation at war with Russia accomplish that?

Easy one. It prevents Putin's war machine from advancing to the borders of other NATO members, many of which he has already said may be attacked.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, pegman said:

The Ukraine military is pretty much out of air defence munitions and 155mm shells. There has been little direct contact fighting between the sides from the start. They have been bombing the hell out of each other instead. A couple days ago the German English language service DW had a report from a hospital near the front. The Ukrainian doctor interviewed stated 2% of casualties were gunshot wounds. All the rest, 98%, caused by sharapnel. Ukraine is about done. Little wonder their leader tried so hard to get NATO directly involved. It was clearly out of desperation. Will Putin be satisfied with the Russian gains or continue on to Odesa and Kharkiv?

What is your source for your claim that Ukraine is out of air defense munitions and 155mm shells?  If that is true, why isn't Russia taking advantage and using more of its air power?

 

Another explanation of the lack of dramatic action is that Russia is exhausted and Ukraine is hoarding munitions while testing Russian defenses.  Once enough munitions have been stockpiled Ukraine may unleash a massive push on one or more points of Russia's defensive lines.  The cluster munitions could be very useful when that happens.

[heybruce]

44 minutes ago, rabas said:

Easy one. It prevents Putin's war machine from advancing to the borders of other NATO members, many of which he has already said may be attacked.

It also would require all NATO members to actively go to war against Russia.  Some NATO members are uncomfortable with that.

[rabas]

28 minutes ago, heybruce said:

It also would require all NATO members to actively go to war against Russia.  Some NATO members are uncomfortable with that.

It would not require NATO to attack Russian soil. It would require NATO to defend Ukraine, which they are already doing, but without NATO troops and pilots. It would send a signal that Russia can't take over Ukraine.

 

If you are concerned about WW3, we are already at the doorstep, this has never been a local issue. How we proceed determines whether or not it gets out of control like WW2. Stopping Putin's aggression snuffs out the candle. There are many  parallels here to WW2.

 

If you are looking for an easy answer, there isn't one. But there is a correct answer, which is not encouraging Putin.

 

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, rabas said:

It would not require NATO to attack Russian soil. It would require NATO to defend Ukraine, which they are already doing, but without NATO troops and pilots. It would send a signal that Russia can't take over Ukraine.

 

If you are concerned about WW3, we are already at the doorstep, this has never been a local issue. How we proceed determines whether or not it gets out of control like WW2. Stopping Putin's aggression snuffs out the candle. There are many  parallels here to WW2.

 

If you are looking for an easy answer, there isn't one. But there is a correct answer, which is not encouraging Putin.

 

So the only difference would be that other countries would have boots on the ground in Ukraine.  Doing this while not attacking Russia would make these soldiers easy targets for long range weapons just outside of Ukraine.  Once again, some NATO member have a problem with that.

 

I think Ukraine should be allowed to attack legitimate military targets in Russia.  That, along with continued western support, should be enough to let Ukraine win the war.  Then discussions about joining NATO can take place.

[rabas]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

So the only difference would be that other countries would have boots on the ground in Ukraine.  Doing this while not attacking Russia would make these soldiers easy targets for long range weapons just outside of Ukraine.  Once again, some NATO member have a problem with that.

 

I think Ukraine should be allowed to attack legitimate military targets in Russia.  That, along with continued western support, should be enough to let Ukraine win the war.  Then discussions about joining NATO can take place.

I agree and it's probably the best solution. The critical issue is sufficient weapons and technology fast enough for Ukraine to win.

 

As for attacking inside Russia, if the Russians do then surely Ukraine can!

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

What is your source for your claim that Ukraine is out of air defense munitions and 155mm shells?  If that is true, why isn't Russia taking advantage and using more of its air power?

 

Another explanation of the lack of dramatic action is that Russia is exhausted and Ukraine is hoarding munitions while testing Russian defenses.  Once enough munitions have been stockpiled Ukraine may unleash a massive push on one or more points of Russia's defensive lines.  The cluster munitions could be very useful when that happens.

I'll back that assertion. I have a clear recollection of reading a credible source which claimed that the primary reason the US wants to use cluster munitions is because the war is putting a strain on the supply of howitzer shells. Cluster munitions are cheap and large stockpiles exist. They would also go a long way to winning this war before the Republicans are back in power and MAGA (all hail Putin) pulls the pin on US assistance to Ukraine.

 

At this point, the US is likely looking at a time in history when it demurred from joining WW2 for longer than it should. The battle of Britain may not have occurred if England was bristling with US aircraft. Indeed, timely intervention might have prevented any German invasion westwards. NATO should be laying down the law to Russia, get out or be pushed out. Maximum human lives would be saved by not letting this war drag on through not taking the last step in helping Ukraine.

[Seppius]

11 hours ago, pegman said:

The Ukraine military is pretty much out of air defence munitions and 155mm shells. There has been little direct contact fighting between the sides from the start. They have been bombing the hell out of each other instead. A couple days ago the German English language service DW had a report from a hospital near the front. The Ukrainian doctor interviewed stated 2% of casualties were gunshot wounds. All the rest, 98%, caused by sharapnel. Ukraine is about done. Little wonder their leader tried so hard to get NATO directly involved. It was clearly out of desperation. Will Putin be satisfied with the Russian gains or continue on to Odesa and Kharkiv? 

 

 

You should join a few Telegram groups, both Russian and Ukrainian, plenty of action at the front, and Ukraine is pushing Russia back. Gained thousands of square kilometers back, and will soon take Bakmout

 

The Russian army is in disarray, and actually getting slaughted, no or little chain of command, and just fired their top General. I predict the army will eventually have a proper coup

 

 

[pegman]

11 hours ago, heybruce said:

What is your source for your claim that Ukraine is out of air defense munitions and 155mm shells?  If that is true, why isn't Russia taking advantage and using more of its air power?

 

Another explanation of the lack of dramatic action is that Russia is exhausted and Ukraine is hoarding munitions while testing Russian defenses.  Once enough munitions have been stockpiled Ukraine may unleash a massive push on one or more points of Russia's defensive lines.  The cluster munitions could be very useful when that happens.

 Obviously this old codger is for from being reliable but he supposedly has some sway. He gets into  this subject matter @4:30mins. Sec State Blinken  repeated the same thing on MSNBC with Andrea Mitchell 

 

 

 

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, pegman said:

 Obviously this old codger is for from being reliable but he supposedly has some sway. He gets into  this subject matter @4:30mins. Sec State Blinken  repeated the same thing on MSNBC with Andrea Mitchell 

 

 

 

"Low on" and "Out of" are not the same.  Ukraine doesn't have as much of any munitions as it would like, however the lack of progress by Russia indicates it's not completely out.

 

It's also know that Ukraine has not committed its reserves to the offensive.  An offensive does require a lot of munitions, which are probably being stockpiled now.

 

In short, while Ukraine needs more, the situation is not as bleak as you presented it.

[pegman]

20 hours ago, heybruce said:

"Low on" and "Out of" are not the same.  Ukraine doesn't have as much of any munitions as it would like, however the lack of progress by Russia indicates it's not completely out.

 

It's also know that Ukraine has not committed its reserves to the offensive.  An offensive does require a lot of munitions, which are probably being stockpiled now.

 

In short, while Ukraine needs more, the situation is not as bleak as you presented it.

You are going on the assumption that this is a territorial war and not a war of attrition. Russia has captured the industrial heartland of Ukraine. This is where the Russian speakers are. It was ethnically cleansed of Ukrainians and Tartars years ago. The Donbas and Crimea were then filled with Russians. It would be stupid for Putin to try to control Ukrainian speaking areas. People don't seem to understand that this war has been going on since 2014. It only escalated in February 2022. If anything I downplayed how bad the situation is for Ukraine. But once again the sheep will continue believing the west;s propaganda media and their military industrial complex former militaryi officers who have no shame. Déjà vu of WMD in Iraq all over again. It's supposed to be fool me once shame on you but fool me twice shame on me.

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, pegman said:

You are going on the assumption that this is a territorial war and not a war of attrition. Russia has captured the industrial heartland of Ukraine. This is where the Russian speakers are. It was ethnically cleansed of Ukrainians and Tartars years ago. The Donbas and Crimea were then filled with Russians. It would be stupid for Putin to try to control Ukrainian speaking areas. People don't seem to understand that this war has been going on since 2014. It only escalated in February 2022. If anything I downplayed how bad the situation is for Ukraine. But once again the sheep will continue believing the west;s propaganda media and their military industrial complex former militaryi officers who have no shame. Déjà vu of WMD in Iraq all over again. It's supposed to be fool me once shame on you but fool me twice shame on me.

Perhaps you're wondering why Ukraine is making slow progress in pushing out the Russians? I suspect that the calculus is that they don't need to go faster and suffer greater losses. The Russians are imploding on their own. It'll be over soon. NATO seem to be exerting greater and gretaer force as well, it's only a matter of time before they give Russia the mafia option.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, pegman said:

You are going on the assumption that this is a territorial war and not a war of attrition. Russia has captured the industrial heartland of Ukraine. This is where the Russian speakers are. It was ethnically cleansed of Ukrainians and Tartars years ago. The Donbas and Crimea were then filled with Russians. It would be stupid for Putin to try to control Ukrainian speaking areas. People don't seem to understand that this war has been going on since 2014. It only escalated in February 2022. If anything I downplayed how bad the situation is for Ukraine. But once again the sheep will continue believing the west;s propaganda media and their military industrial complex former militaryi officers who have no shame. Déjà vu of WMD in Iraq all over again. It's supposed to be fool me once shame on you but fool me twice shame on me.

"It would be stupid for Putin to try to control Ukrainian speaking areas. "

 

And yet that was Putin's initial plan, when he sent in, and wasted, troops and material to capture Kyiv in the first days of the war.

 

You give Putin too much credit.

[Hummin]

On 7/11/2023 at 4:30 PM, jvs said:

yes and maybe he is right.

Other countries are saying that a country at war can not become a member of NATO.

But the Ukraine is not at war,it is just a special military operation.

So make them a member and together kick the russians back home.

Erdogan has chosen his side,he is now siding with the winners.

Took him awhile but he realizes now that by backing the membership

of Sweden will help him into the EU.

Man o man will putin ever be pisxed off now.

 

 

We will regret our partnership with Turkey! 

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

We will regret our partnership with Turkey! 

It seemed like a good idea during the Cold War.  Now, maybe not.

[jvs]

8 hours ago, Hummin said:

We will regret our partnership with Turkey! 

Maybe or maybe not,they have been part of NATO since 1952 and they want to join the EU.

They want f16's and i am sure the US "helped" a little bit by mentioning this would be easier if Turkey agrees with Sweden also becoming a NATO member.

A strong NATO ally and on a very strategic spot Turkey has been and will be an asset to NATO.

If they ever join the EU it will be even better for the west i think?

 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, jvs said:

Maybe or maybe not,they have been part of NATO since 1952 and they want to join the EU.

They want f16's and i am sure the US "helped" a little bit by mentioning this would be easier if Turkey agrees with Sweden also becoming a NATO member.

A strong NATO ally and on a very strategic spot Turkey has been and will be an asset to NATO.

If they ever join the EU it will be even better for the west i think?

 

Until Turkey stops using domestic politics as international bargaining chips they are unsuitable as a member to either. With an inflation rate at 38% they would likely damage the EU.

[jvs]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Until Turkey stops using domestic politics as international bargaining chips they are unsuitable as a member to either. With an inflation rate at 38% they would likely damage the EU.

Well they all ready are a NATO member and here to stay i would think.

There is no way the EU will let them become a member unless they get

their politics and inflation in order.

They will have to adapt them selves and it is starting to look like they are now realizing putin is not that great .This is a better bargaining position for the EU.

Let's hope they will continue to grow towards the West.

[Seppius]

12 hours ago, pegman said:

You are going on the assumption that this is a territorial war and not a war of attrition. Russia has captured the industrial heartland of Ukraine. This is where the Russian speakers are. It was ethnically cleansed of Ukrainians and Tartars years ago. The Donbas and Crimea were then filled with Russians. It would be stupid for Putin to try to control Ukrainian speaking areas. People don't seem to understand that this war has been going on since 2014. It only escalated in February 2022. If anything I downplayed how bad the situation is for Ukraine. But once again the sheep will continue believing the west;s propaganda media and their military industrial complex former militaryi officers who have no shame. Déjà vu of WMD in Iraq all over again. It's supposed to be fool me once shame on you but fool me twice shame on me.

Putin's own Generals and soldiers are saying what a shambles it all is, Where do you get your news from, RT? As I said before get on some Telegram groups, both Russian and Ukraine to see what's really happening, and the ground Ukraine is taking back

 

"It would be stupid for Putin to try to control Ukrainian speaking areas"

 

So what's the reason for Putin targeting Ukrainian cities and civilians with cruise missiles and drones every day? And did he not try to take Kyiv at the start of the special military operation

 

https://www.ganjingworld.com/news/1g0bv212u2o65EO54NmhEu5je15l1c

 

MOSCOW, July 13 (Reuters) - A Russian general said he had been dismissed as a commander after telling the military leadership about the dire situation at the front in Ukraine, where he said Russian soldiers had been stabbed in the back by the failings of the top military brass.

[Hummin]

29 minutes ago, jvs said:

Maybe or maybe not,they have been part of NATO since 1952 and they want to join the EU.

They want f16's and i am sure the US "helped" a little bit by mentioning this would be easier if Turkey agrees with Sweden also becoming a NATO member.

A strong NATO ally and on a very strategic spot Turkey has been and will be an asset to NATO.

If they ever join the EU it will be even better for the west i think?

 

I completely see the strategy behind it, but the bigger EU grows, the more fragile it will be during bad times, as we know history from earlier experiments with unions across faith and culture.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

I completely see the strategy behind it, but the bigger EU grows, the more fragile it will be during bad times, as we know history from earlier experiments with unions across faith and culture.

The faith and culture have nothing to do with it, it's the corruption and illegality.

[Hummin]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The faith and culture have nothing to do with it, it's the corruption and illegality.

Okay, so Erdogan do not play his religion card against europe, and also lately when they burned the  Quran several times in Sweeden? 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Hummin said:

Okay, so Erdogan do not play his religion card against europe, and also lately when they burned the  Quran several times in Sweeden? 

If religion was an issue it would have been in 1952. It wasn't then and isn't now. If you think anyone even cares that Sweden defends a constitutional right (like America and Australia) of a single bigot to burn a Koran you'd be wrong. Most NATO countries are largely irreligious and don't care about another country or individual's religion. Only those few bigots and Turkey is sophisticated enough to realize it beyond making diplomatic protests for domestic consumption.

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

If religion was an issue it would have been in 1952. It wasn't then and isn't now. If you think anyone even cares that Sweden defends a constitutional right (like America and Australia) of a single bigot to burn a Koran you'd be wrong. Most NATO countries are largely irreligious and don't care about another country or individual's religion. Only those few bigots and Turkey is sophisticated enough to realize it beyond making diplomatic protests for domestic consumption.

Im sorry to say, Erdogans trump card is religion, same as Trump wouldnt won without the religious on his side his first term he served. And it have been quite alot in the media during Erdogans time as prime minister, especially lately now during Sweedens application, so they care enough to make a point out of it. 

 

Google Erdogan plays the religious card

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=erdogan+playing+the+religious+card&oq=&aqs=chrome.2.69i58j46i67i308i362i524i650j35i39i362i524l13.-1j0j9&client=ms-android-oneplus-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8