VINEGAR: Vinegar Intended Specifically for... Household Cleaning and Descaling of Hot Water Heaters... Where to buy Cheap by the Gallon?

[GammaGlobulin]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Water out of a well ( groundwater) will sometimes contain pesticides, herbicides and other agricultural chemicals, depending on its proximity to sources of said chemicals.

IMO it is doubtful whether boiling well water would eliminate such compounds, although some of them may degrade with heat. The only way to be certain is activated carbon filtration.

Tap water supplied by most water authorities would be safer in that respect, because the contaminants tend to be absorbed and precipitated out during floc clarification. I only boil tap water for drinking, untreated well water is very probably unsuitable for anything except showering, and maybe not even then.

I have traveled to many countries, and always boil what I drink, leaving it to cool down overnight for the next days' supply. I've been doing that since i was a trainee chemist, and can say I have never contracted a water-borne disease in about 60 years.

YES, thank you.

I had been concerned about using groundwater here for drinking purposes.

Hence...I will just continue using bottled water.

As to whether or not to boil the bottled water might be warranted, I cannot say given the limited knowledge I have concerning the supplier's water source and treatment.  Is it a major concern to me?  Not really, and not yet.

 

Regarding showering with groundwater, I do not like the idea of this prospect, but it is the only available option at the moment.

 

For sure, the groundwater has been turning everything white for months and months, as expected.

 

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Ozonation after filtration would work against parasites, ozonation alone would be no better than chlorination.

I am puzzled as to why people insist on having expensive filtration and sterilization systems, requiring regular maintenance, when the simple act of boiling gets the same result or better. Perhaps there is some kind of social cachet attached to such equipment.

I think when done right, filtering is cheaper and easier than boiling. 

[Lacessit]

36 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

For sure, the groundwater has been turning everything white for months and months, as expected.

 

There is a marketing opportunity staring at you. Establish a spa, the darker skinned Thai ladies will pay for the whiter skins they crave by bathing in it.

You could even have cameras while they cavort in the water, for your own viewing pleasure, or for profit.

[Yellowtail]

19 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Did you know about 95% of American towns and cities are actually drinking recycled pee? It's why I mostly drank beer and coffee on my visits there.

I doubt very much you can support this statement, because while it's true the much of the US recycles sewar water, it is illegal to use it as municipal water, nor is it legal to use for most agriculture. 

 

That said, one could argue that virtually all water comes from the oceans, and that virtually all human waste ends up there one way or another. 

[McTavish]

World Chemicals on Mahidol Rd - from 160bt/litre up to 30L (cheapest)

[LikeItHot]

15 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

As the PDF attachment from the CDC stated, using acetic acid in higher concentrations, above 80 percent, should be done with caution due to vapor inhalation potential. The pH of this product is 2.5 as already stated above, and is borderline corrosive.

 

Therefore, the product you show, offering a concentration over 99% would need to be diluted for cleaning purposes.

 

Great price, though!

Obviously it needs to be diluted. I didn't think that needed to be said.  I clean my hard scale with hydrochloric acid diluted 10:1.  Again don't think it needs to be said that I wear skin and eye protection and a respirator when using dangerous chemicals.

[GammaGlobulin]

6 minutes ago, LikeItHot said:

Obviously it needs to be diluted. I didn't think that needed to be said.  I clean my hard scale with hydrochloric acid diluted 10:1.  Again don't think it needs to be said that I wear skin and eye protection and a respirator when using dangerous chemicals.

It is helpful that you took the time to say it, anyway.

I often worry about things like this when posting about cleaning solutions that can be hazardous in the wrong hands.

 

I recall cleaning our pool with muriatic acid, which might also have household cleaning benefits, but this I have never tried.

 

[tgw]

maybe I'm late to the party, didn't read all messages.

 

vinegar is for the kitchen.

if you want to buy "industrial strength" of something, you need to search for the product using its industrial name.

 

so search for "acetic acid" on Lazada and you will find 99.85% pure "vinegar":

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/acetic-acid-glacial-9985-1-5-i2621882568-s9544853702.html

 

 

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

It is helpful that you took the time to say it, anyway.

I often worry about things like this when posting about cleaning solutions that can be hazardous in the wrong hands.

 

I recall cleaning our pool with muriatic acid, which might also have household cleaning benefits, but this I have never tried.

 

Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid. Oil of vitriol is sulphuric acid. Spirit of niter is nitric acid. I thought you might like to know.

The most dangerous acid, by a country mile, is hydrofluoric acid. It has caused some agonizing deaths.

[GammaGlobulin]

39 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid. Oil of vitriol is sulphuric acid. Spirit of niter is nitric acid. I thought you might like to know.

The most dangerous acid, by a country mile, is hydrofluoric acid. It has caused some agonizing deaths.

Also, HCL gives me heartburn. 

 

 

[Lacessit]

45 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Also, HCL gives me heartburn. 

 

 

I usually find half a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate in a glass of water fixes that.

[GammaGlobulin]

9 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

The most dangerous acid, by a country mile, is hydrofluoric acid. It has caused some agonizing deaths.

After reading your comment, I realized that, Many Moons Ago, I had heard about a grad student at the uni, a young Chinese girl working on her PhD at Penn, who suffered severe and devastating injury while working with HF.

 

It seems that she was not operating the Fume Hood properly...probably because she was a GIRL, you know.

 

Back in the day, most Chem Grad Students were MEN, as it should be.

 

Anyway, HF destroyed what might have been a very promising career for this beautiful young woman.

 

Also, it has been said that Organic Chemistry research can be a dangerous occupation. When a Chem student makes a mistake, real consequences happen, and not just a bad grade.

 

I think I remember this primarily because, at such a tender age, this was the first time I fully realized that, just being a student, can get you killed.

 

I have never liked the idea of working with strong acids.

And, as I have mentioned, I suffered a severe case of PTSD by just remembering the instance when I was 14, and had kept, in big brown glass jugs, 1 gallon sulfuric acid, and 1 gallon of nitric acid, on the top shelf of my closet in my boarding-school dorm room.  At the time, being only 14, I had no idea about the dangers involved with highly concentrated acids, and felt no sweat at the time.  However, each time I have recalled this memory since the age of 60, the memory gets worse and worse to handle.  And therefore, I would say that I must be experiencing....  POST-Post-traumatic stress disorder (PPTSD).

 

It is never wise to experiment with chemicals without proper supervision.

 

I guess that Chinese girl learned a lesson, that day.

 

Tragic, really....

 

(The REASON I feel this story to be so tragic is because this was an extremely intelligent young woman with such a bright future in Science ahead of her.  And then, probably due to insufficient supervision by her advisor, one minor error caused her to lose almost everything in the blink of an eye.  It happened that fast, and in the lab of a university. Tragic.)

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by GammaGlobulin

[Acharn]

I can't help you with gallon size, but my Big C here in Nakhon Sawan sells 3 liter jugs of white vinegar. I use it for washing the floor tiles in my bathroom and decalcifying my coffee pot. Sorry, I don't remember the price, but it's cheap.

[Woof999]

Bought some Cillit Bang over from the UK with me a couple of weeks ago. It's struggling with the stains I get here in Thailand.

 

99.8%+ acetic acid

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/acetic-acid-1000ml-1-i3256305221-s12092515992.html

 

1L for 180 baht food grade or 160 baht industrial grade. There are a few suppliers at around the 150 baht range too. I bought the 180 baht stuff from here.

[Damrongsak]

Years back my Mom-in-law had very strong vinegar in a small glass bottle.  She called it hua nam som (head of the vinegar?).  She cautioned us to dilute it for food use.

[GammaGlobulin]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:05 PM, Lacessit said:

I usually find half a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate in a glass of water fixes that.

Clearly, at least to me it is clear, you are becoming the forum's Chemistry Consultant in Residence, willingly or unwillingly, as the case may be.

 

I have an important, pertinent, and On-Topic question concerning the ways in which “hard water” affects plumbing fixtures and other metal parts that come into contact for prolonged periods with this bane of our on-the-homefront existence.

 

Question:  From a detailed chemical-reaction perspective, how, exactly, does hard water cause plumbing fixtures, metal pipes, tubing inside water heaters, and the like, to deteriorate and degrade much more rapidly than would otherwise be the case.

 

In replying to my question, please feel free to use your skills with the LaTeX editor to add the appropriate chemical equations. And, please do not tell me that you are not good with LaTeX, because I would not believe you if you did.

 

Here in Thailand, many people are not aware of just how hard water affects their pipes, and probably lose money due to their ignorance about a few simple chemical equations. 

 

Why would a water tap suddenly fall off the pipe, for example, and flood a house, even if it had not been used for ages?  Could such a thing be caused by ghosts? Or, is there some sort of chemistry at work?

 

I bet that your informed answer will prove quite valuable to many who are reading this topic about hard water. I am sure of it. 

 

Please Note:  LaTeX is a magnificent piece of software for doing text editing of Math and Science text. LaTeX is FUN to use!!!  And, using LaTeX, one can produce a result which is completely ready for publishing in any science journal.  And this is why I know you know your LaTeX.

 

 

[captainjackS]

https://maps.app.goo.gl/1AqcAckc2g4jvgoL6

 

Ruamchok Chemical has a surprisingly large inventory  of various liquid and powder chemicals.  They might have a barrel of whatever you need.

[save the frogs]

 

[GammaGlobulin]

25 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

 

I watched this video.

The first question which came to mind was:

How might vinegar affect frogs, knowing you are a frog lover.

 

One of the BEST ways, I think, to treat drinking water for pathogens WITHOUT damage to frogs and other wildlife might be to pass water through a glass tube while being irradiated by ultra-strong UV radiation (how many lumens, I am not sure).

 

We all know that frogs are dying, and this is a terrible thing.

 

Of course, I think your video about killing germs might better have been posted on the other Vinegar-related topic in the Community Pub about Hard Water where we can talk about killing Germs and Pathogens in our water using GAMMA rays.

 

Or, here is a great solution for killing germs in water using nothing but sunlight:

 

 

This diagram above seems to be designed to produce hot water for energy production.

 

However, personally, I think this might be best for producing pathogen-free water, instead.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

I love frogs.

 

Especially the poison dart frog.

 

And, who does not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by GammaGlobulin

[Lacessit]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:26 PM, GammaGlobulin said:

Clearly, at least to me it is clear, you are becoming the forum's Chemistry Consultant in Residence, willingly or unwillingly, as the case may be.

 

I have an important, pertinent, and On-Topic question concerning the ways in which “hard water” affects plumbing fixtures and other metal parts that come into contact for prolonged periods with this bane of our on-the-homefront existence.

 

Question:  From a detailed chemical-reaction perspective, how, exactly, does hard water cause plumbing fixtures, metal pipes, tubing inside water heaters, and the like, to deteriorate and degrade much more rapidly than would otherwise be the case.

 

In replying to my question, please feel free to use your skills with the LaTeX editor to add the appropriate chemical equations. And, please do not tell me that you are not good with LaTeX, because I would not believe you if you did.

 

Here in Thailand, many people are not aware of just how hard water affects their pipes, and probably lose money due to their ignorance about a few simple chemical equations. 

 

Why would a water tap suddenly fall off the pipe, for example, and flood a house, even if it had not been used for ages?  Could such a thing be caused by ghosts? Or, is there some sort of chemistry at work?

 

I bet that your informed answer will prove quite valuable to many who are reading this topic about hard water. I am sure of it. 

 

Please Note:  LaTeX is a magnificent piece of software for doing text editing of Math and Science text. LaTeX is FUN to use!!!  And, using LaTeX, one can produce a result which is completely ready for publishing in any science journal.  And this is why I know you know your LaTeX.

 

 

Sorry to disappoint you, I know nothing about LaTeX, and have only been aware of it since the post of yours I am quoting.

 

All the phenomena you cite belong in the field of corrosion chemistry. A commonly used parameter there is the Langelier Index, a calculation made on the basis of pH and calcium hardness. A value of -5 means the water is highly corrosive, +5 a scale is deposited which protects against corrosion. And screws up heat transfer.

 

It is not the full picture, however. Corrosion rates are also dependent on dissolved oxygen and anion content of the water. For example, steel will stay bright forever in distilled water with zero dissolved oxygen. OTOH, even with a high positive Langelier Index, steel will corrode rapidly in the presence of high levels of chloride.

Soft water has its own problems when it comes to copper piping.

 

Chloride is THE corrosion villain, and is ubiquitous in the environment. It will even cause stress corrosion cracking in stainless steel above 60 C.

 

I once was at a corrosion conference with two giants of the field in Robert Baboian and Herb Townsend, who were locking horns over the validity of salt spray testing. A bit like watching a bull and a matador, academic disagreements can be ferocious.

 

No ghosts, corrosion never sleeps.

 

[GammaGlobulin]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Sorry to disappoint you, I know nothing about LaTeX, and have only been aware of it since the post of yours I am quoting.

 

All the phenomena you cite belong in the field of corrosion chemistry. A commonly used parameter there is the Langelier Index, a calculation made on the basis of pH and calcium hardness. A value of -5 means the water is highly corrosive, +5 a scale is deposited which protects against corrosion. And screws up heat transfer.

 

It is not the full picture, however. Corrosion rates are also dependent on dissolved oxygen and anion content of the water. For example, steel will stay bright forever in distilled water with zero dissolved oxygen. OTOH, even with a high positive Langelier Index, steel will corrode rapidly in the presence of high levels of chloride.

Soft water has its own problems when it comes to copper piping.

 

Chloride is THE corrosion villain, and is ubiquitous in the environment. It will even cause stress corrosion cracking in stainless steel above 60 C.

 

I once was at a corrosion conference with two giants of the field in Robert Baboian and Herb Townsend, who were locking horns over the validity of salt spray testing. A bit like watching a bull and a matador, academic disagreements can be ferocious.

 

No ghosts, corrosion never sleeps.

 

Did you say corrosion of plumbing fixtures is related to the onion content of the hard water?

 

Anyway, yours happens to be a very informative comment that will be of interest to many here.

 

Here at my place, taps are falling off the pipes, left and right.

 

Also, the taps freeze up, almost in no time, and then begin to leak.

The housekeeper here is convinced that we have a Plumbing Ghost and actually began religious rituals for a time.

 

I know something about salt-spray testing....due to the fact that I worked with gold-plating factories in Taiwan.

(The gold plating workers in the factories in Taiwan, years ago, cared nothing about wading around in acid baths, all the livelong day, with zero protection from inhaled fumes. I sometimes wonder how long they lived.)

 

 

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

On 7/20/2023 at 8:17 AM, GammaGlobulin said:

I watched this video.

The first question which came to mind was:

How might vinegar affect frogs, knowing you are a frog lover.

 

One of the BEST ways, I think, to treat drinking water for pathogens WITHOUT damage to frogs and other wildlife might be to pass water through a glass tube while being irradiated by ultra-strong UV radiation (how many lumens, I am not sure).

 

We all know that frogs are dying, and this is a terrible thing.

 

Of course, I think your video about killing germs might better have been posted on the other Vinegar-related topic in the Community Pub about Hard Water where we can talk about killing Germs and Pathogens in our water using GAMMA rays.

 

Or, here is a great solution for killing germs in water using nothing but sunlight:

 

 

This diagram above seems to be designed to produce hot water for energy production.

 

However, personally, I think this might be best for producing pathogen-free water, instead.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

I love frogs.

 

Especially the poison dart frog.

 

And, who does not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My GF eats frogs, I haven't tried them because I have seen where they grow them.

I doubt the apparatus would work unless it brought water to the boil. Parasites like giardia IMO would be unaffected.

It actually looks like a rotary evaporator to me, without the condenser.

[GammaGlobulin]

1 hour ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I know nothing about LaTeX, and have only been aware of it since the post of yours I am quoting.

One is never too old to learn LaTeX (for fun), and one also need not be a touch typist to do so.

 

LaTeX can easily produce BEAUTIFUL copy, printer-ready.

LaTeX is a very complex and versatile piece of software.

One can either download LaTeX for Windows and Linux, or LaTeX is available in a browser version, I am told.

 

You really ought to try using LaTeX next time you become bored, rather than doing a crossword puzzle.

 

One can even use LaTeX while having a pedicure.

 

So, as you say, Lacessit,..you may never have heard of LaTeX until my recent post, however this does not mean that you cannot still reap some enjoyment from learning a smattering of LaTeX, both between and during pedicures.

 

I wish we could use LaTeX here, for chemical formulae, etc, but I don't know how.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by GammaGlobulin

[Lacessit]

27 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

One is never too old to learn LaTeX (for fun), and one also need not be a touch typist to do so.

 

LaTeX can easily produce BEAUTIFUL copy, printer-ready.

LaTeX is a very complex and versatile piece of software.

One can either download LaTeX for Windows and Linux, or LaTeX is available in a browser version, I am told.

 

You really ought to try using LaTeX next time you become bored, rather than doing a crossword puzzle.

 

One can even use LaTeX while having a pedicure.

 

So, as you say, Lacessit,..you may never have heard of LaTeX until my recent post, however this does not mean that you cannot still reap some enjoyment from learning a smattering of LaTeX, both between and during pedicures.

 

I wish we could use LaTeX here, for chemical formulae, etc, but I don't know how.

 

 

 

 

I have had a look at LaTex. It seems to organize documents just like I used to.

I wrote every technical report in a sequence Title - Introduction - Experimental design - Results and Discussion - Conclusions - References - Signature and Date.

Graphics and tables were easy enough to insert along the way.

 

Those days are well behind me, IIRC the last was 15 years ago.

 

BTW, latex without the capitalizations makes the best foam mattresses around, much better than polyurethane. Tricky stuff though, getting the mattress off the mould after curing was a delicate operation.

 

Latex was also used in the bucket seats of the Volkswagen Beetle. A mat of coconut fibre, spray with latex. Lay in the seat mould, cure for 20 minutes, and trim. Very comfortable seats, more durable than foam. Passed the Ford flex test with ease.

Of course, Ford stuck with less expensive seat components.

[GammaGlobulin]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I have had a look at LaTex. It seems to organize documents just like I used to.

I wrote every technical report in a sequence Title - Introduction - Experimental design - Results and Discussion - Conclusions - References - Signature and Date.

Graphics and tables were easy enough to insert along the way.

 

Those days are well behind me, IIRC the last was 15 years ago.

 

BTW, latex without the capitalizations makes the best foam mattresses around, much better than polyurethane. Tricky stuff though, getting the mattress off the mould after curing was a delicate operation.

 

Latex was also used in the bucket seats of the Volkswagen Beetle. A mat of coconut fibre, spray with latex. Lay in the seat mould, cure for 20 minutes, and trim. Very comfortable seats, more durable than foam. Passed the Ford flex test with ease.

Of course, Ford stuck with less expensive seat components.

Latex mattresses?

YES, I certainly am aware of this important use.

Unfortunately, I am sort of a penny-pincher...

And a latex mattress is too rich for my blood.

Maybe in the next life..

As for this life, time is too short to spend time sleeping.

 

 

[Lacessit]

19 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Latex mattresses?

YES, I certainly am aware of this important use.

Unfortunately, I am sort of a penny-pincher...

And a latex mattress is too rich for my blood.

Maybe in the next life..

As for this life, time is too short to spend time sleeping.

 

 

You do spend your time in composing prolific and verbose posts, each to his own.

[GammaGlobulin]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You do spend your time in composing prolific and verbose posts, each to his own.

Maybe, if I had a mattress of latex, I would spend more time sleeping, rather than composing.

 

 

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Maybe, if I had a mattress of latex, I would spend more time sleeping, rather than composing.

 

 

Perhaps posters who are not enamoured with your threads will start a GoFundMe page to buy you one.

[GammaGlobulin]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Perhaps posters who are not enamoured with your threads will start a GoFundMe page to buy you one.

If they only would...

There must be millions of them.

If each contributed just one Baht, I would have a latex mattress today before the sun goes down.

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

On 7/25/2023 at 1:45 PM, Lacessit said:

I have had a look at LaTex. It seems to organize documents just like I used to.

I wrote every technical report in a sequence Title - Introduction - Experimental design - Results and Discussion - Conclusions - References - Signature and Date.

Graphics and tables were easy enough to insert along the way.

I am definitely UNAWARE of ANY OTHER desktop-publishing software which can duplicate, or even come close to duplicating, LaTeX's versatility for....

 

Typesetting

Scientific Notation

Beauty of the Text

Etc...

 

Maybe you are?

Can you please name one, other than maybe this one?  https://www.slant.co/versus/13783/24296/~latex_vs_microsoft-publisher

 

BUT....this other one does not even apply because this other one by MS is NOT opensource software.

And, in academia, scientists ALL prefer using opensource software so that they can tweak the software to create new iterations which better suit their needs.  https://subscription.packtpub.com/book/business-and-other/9781847199867/1/ch01lvl1sec10/what-is-latex#:~:text=LaTeX is a free%2C open,typesetting engine by Donald Knuth.

 

What SAY you, Sir?

 

(I mean: We would not wish to mislead readers into mistakenly thinking that LaTeX is not just the BEST for making one's science articles printer-ready. And, also, we LIKE to support opensource software whenever possible, too!)

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by GammaGlobulin