April or Pacific Cross?

hammered · July 25, 2023

I hope I have not missed this comparison before, but not a lot of time today. If so, apologies but...

Just a quick question about a choice of two health insurances:

1. Pacific Cross Maxima Inpatient

2. April My Health Basic (French not Thai provider)

I am coming to the renewal time on PC Maxima and thought as I will shortly be 61, I should look at any better alternatives. The two levels of cover look similar to me and are both enough for my outside BKK needs. While through the 60s the prices are close, it seems from the information I can get that the premiums of PC from 70 up to 80 jump a lot and it becomes increasingly more expensive than April. This concerns me, and if I need to make a change I wonder if it would be better now or later.

I have no claim and am fit, healthy and have no pre-conditions.

Has anyone else noticed this? And any advice, would be appreciated.

Thanks

CLW · July 25, 2023

Okay, I read that you are existing customer of Pacific Cross already, so this might not affect you.

But they are very thorough and picky during initial screening of documents and previous treatments / underlying diseases. So much, that after two months of underwriting process I cancelled it and changed to another provider. My insurance broker warned me about that before and unless their client want (or have to) save premiums, they are no longer recommending Pacific Cross because of these issues.

Etaoin Shrdlu · July 25, 2023

April is an insurance broker, not an insurance company. Which insurance company has April placed your business with?

If your policy is issued by a major European insurance company, you will likely have better consumer protection and also a more professional approach to claims handling than you would with a Thailand-based insurer.

topt · July 26, 2023

On 7/25/2023 at 5:33 PM, hammered said:

The two levels of cover look similar to me and are both enough for my outside BKK needs. While through the 60s the prices are close, it seems from the information I can get that the premiums of PC from 70 up to 80 jump a lot and it becomes increasingly more expensive than April.

Can you tell me where, and how current, this information is coming from as I am having issues with my current preferred broker in getting this sort of information? (For International providers)

TallGuyJohninBKK · July 26, 2023

1 hour ago, topt said:

Can you tell me where, and how current, this information is coming from as I am having issues with my current preferred broker in getting this sort of information? (For International providers)

Pacific Cross's normal published rates chart for health insurance seems to top out at age 65, even though they do offer to continue coverage for existing policy holders basically for life...

I have received info for older age group premiums from them in the past. Let me look around for that.

Here's their standard rates chart for Maxima policies, along with their no claims and deductible discount options...

Maxima-Plan_Edit-1.pdf

Edited July 26, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

TallGuyJohninBKK · July 26, 2023

I had this from them back in 2019:

PS - Pacific Cross starting last year, I think, also began offering an enhanced version of their Maxima policies at higher premium rates that they called "new normal" policies.

The above rate charts apply to their original Maxima policies and coverages that existing policy holders had the option to continue with, or switch over to the enhanced coverage and higher premium new version.

I don't have a full premiums chart for their newer "new normal" policy versions.

Also, keep in mind, by opting for higher per year claims deductibles, you can cut the annual premiums for their Maxima policies by up to 50%, as detailed in the chart in my prior post. The 50% discount rate involves a 300,000 baht annual policy deductible, which equals a maximum of about $8500 USD.

Edited July 26, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

Sheryl · July 26, 2023

Pacific Cross (and other Thai based companies) will raise your rates based on claims history on top of age related increases. European based insurers are not allowed to fo this. So the premium difference you see in the charts is just a fraction of what may occur.

In addition PC excludes cover for "chronic" conditions and this includes ones that newly develop after policy is in effect. So if for example you have a claim related to cardiovascular disease or cancer, not only will there be a substantial premium hike the next year (additional to age increases) but a new exclusion will be added for that condition going forward. Western based insurers are not allowed to do this; exclusions cannot be added after the fact unless it is discovered you witheld or misrepresented information at time of application.

For anyone plannkng to grow old here, to me it is a no-brainer that need an internationally issued policy.

TallGuyJohninBKK · July 26, 2023

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

In addition PC excludes cover for "chronic" conditions and this includes ones that newly develop after policy is in effect. So if for example you have a claim related to cardiovascular disease or cancer, not only will there be a substantial premium hike the next year (additional to age increases) but a new exclusion will be added for that condition going forward.

Sheryl, do you have an official source for that claim above regarding Pacific Cross?

I've been a policy holder of theirs for years, and don't believe I've ever heard or read anything about that kind of reaction to chronic conditions (adding new exclusions for existing policy holders) in their health policies, other than that policy holder claims experience CAN (but does not automatically) lead to rate increases.

In a memo from my broker last year on the divergence between their original Maxima policy and their newer version, they included the following regarding the policies' coverage for cancer treatments:

If they were automatically adding blanket exclusions due to the emergence of chronic conditions for ongoing policy holders, I don't think they could be making the coverage explanations shown above.

In short, I've read my entire Pacific Cross policy word by word at various points, and I don't believe I've ever seen anything in the Maxima policy that would allow for that kind of response relating to blanket exclusions.

Edited July 26, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

Sheryl · July 26, 2023

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Sheryl, do you have an official source for that claim above regarding Pacific Cross?

I've been a policy holder of theirs for years, and don't believe I've ever heard or read anything about that kind of reaction to chronic conditions (adding new exclusions for existing policy holders) in their health policies, other than that policy holder claims experience CAN (but does not automatically) lead to rate increases.

In a memo from my broker last year on the divergence between their original Maxima policy and their newer version, they included the following regarding the policies' coverage for cancer treatments:

If they were automatically adding blanket exclusions due to the emergence of chronic conditions for ongoing policy holders, I don't think they could be making the coverage explanations shown above.

In short, I've read my entire Pacific Cross policy word by word at various points, and I don't believe I've ever seen anything in the Maxima policy that would allow for that kind of response relating to blanket exclusions.

There have been numerous reports over the years from members with PC policies of this happening. Though I do not know which specific PC policies these were.

this is one but there have been others

https://aseannow.com/topic/1030783-pacific-cross-health-insurance/?do=findComment&comment=12834029

Have you checked the actual policy document (not the brochure)? look under Exclusions and anything about Chronic conditions. (these are not on the web so I can't access them).

There is suggestive (but nto definitive) language on their FAQ page as follows:

"What illness, conditions are NOT covered by health insurance?

.....The other area that insurers tend to put caps on things, if they offer cover at all, is the routine treatment of chronic conditions because treatment costs can be high and continue for many years. Common chronic conditions include the following:

Arthritis
Asthma
Diabetes
Epilepsy
Heart disease"

and (same site)

"What is a chronic condition?

A chronic condition is a medical condition that is of more than 6 week’s duration. These include:

Heart Disease

Diabetes

Hypertension

Hyperlipidemia

Arthritis

An illness that recurs or is likely to recur

An illness that requires monitoring, consultations, check-ups, examinations or tests

Note: This list is only intended to provide a guide to the interpretation of a chronic condition."

https://www.pacificcrosshealth.com/en/faq/#1458979625341-858eeced-8d0f

I suggest you specifically ask your Broker, in the event you newly develop a chronic condition, will PC cover it indefinitely.

topt · July 27, 2023

9 hours ago, Sheryl said:

For anyone plannkng to grow old here, to me it is a no-brainer that need an internationally issued policy.

You may recall that I moved to April International but was going to check with my broker (AA Insurance) about the supposed hefty in band increase mentioned by a poster in another thread.

I eventually emailed my contact and after a while I received a reply from someone from a company called AA World............

In answer to some of my follow up questions -

Quote

Regarding your AA Insure rebranded question below, I would like to inform you that recently, we have made some internal changes to ensure that we can better accommodate the needs of all our clients. As part of these changes, we have designated AA World to handle clients with international plans, while AA Insure and Wim will be responsible for clients with local Thailand plans. This will allow us to provide more specialized and efficient support to each group of clients, tailored to their unique requirements. This has happened late last year. Furthermore, I would like to inform you that AA World operates from our office in India.

This ties in with @Etaoin Shrdlu comments about Thailand based brokers selling International policies.

A subsequent email from a "manager" at AA World basically pushed Regency Health (Regency for Expats?) with a premium about 50% more than I am currently paying with April..........

They also pretty much ignored my request for current banding prices for April........

Apparently Jenny has gone and no more comparison excel sheets.........

topt · July 27, 2023

10 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I had this from them back in 2019:

Not sure if this is relevant but this shows Maxima premiums (and others) for 10m plus baht cover with age bandings and was produced earlier this year. May be useful to others.

I also have their sheets for 1m+ and 3m+ cover if anybody is interested.

AA_Comparison_10+m_THB_plans_v2[1].pdf

Edited July 27, 2023 by topt
correction +

Etaoin Shrdlu · July 27, 2023

29 minutes ago, topt said:

You may recall that I moved to April International but was going to check with my broker (AA Insurance) about the supposed hefty in band increase mentioned by a poster in another thread.

I eventually emailed my contact and after a while I received a reply from someone from a company called AA World............

In answer to some of my follow up questions -

This ties in with @Etaoin Shrdlu comments about Thailand based brokers selling International policies.

A subsequent email from a "manager" at AA World basically pushed Regency Health (Regency for Expats?) with a premium about 50% more than I am currently paying with April..........

They also pretty much ignored my request for current banding prices for April........

Apparently Jenny has gone and no more comparison excel sheets.........

As far as I can determine, Regency is an insurance broker, not an insurance company. Regency's website gives me every reason to believe they are an intermediary of some type and no reason to believe they are an insurance company.

If looking into Regency, I would want to determine which insurance company or companies they place their clients' business with and then determine wether the insurer they propose to use is financially sound and has a good claims-paying reputation.

I would also want to think about the complications of dealing with formal complaints or other actions involving an insurance broker in a developing insurance and regulatory market (AAW) working via a second broker probably located in another country (Regency) placing their clients' business potentially with an insurer domiciled in yet another country.

topt · July 27, 2023

Just now, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

As far as I can determine, Regency is an insurance broker, not an insurance company. Regency's website gives me every reason to believe they are an intermediary of some type and no reason to believe they are an insurance company.

If looking into Regency, I would want to determine which insurance company or companies they place their clients' business with and then determine wether the insurer they propose to use is financially sound and has a good claims-paying reputation.

I would also want to think about the complications of dealing with formal complaints or other actions involving an insurance broker in a developing insurance and regulatory market (AAW) working via a second broker probably located in another country (Regency) placing their clients' business potentially with an insurer domiciled in yet another country.

I don't disagree with anything you say which is why, along with other reasons, I have no interest in dealing with AA World and or Regency.

My research showed they are all part of Alliance Group International - https://www.welcometoalliance.com/alliance-group

Etaoin Shrdlu · July 27, 2023

11 minutes ago, topt said:

I don't disagree with anything you say which is why, along with other reasons, I have no interest in dealing with AA World and or Regency.

My research showed they are all part of Alliance Group International - https://www.welcometoalliance.com/alliance-group

Looking at Alliance's website, it mentions that Regency Assurance is a "partner" and implies that it is regulated by the Financial Services Regulatory Commission in St. Kitts and Nevis. It would appear that Regency Assurance is therefore an insurance company and not an intermediary. This may be where Regency places their clients' business.

I think St. Kitts and Nevis is known for a light regulatory touch and low capital requirements for insurers. If not, then why would anyone submit to their regulatory regime?

Sheryl · July 27, 2023

12 hours ago, topt said:

You may recall that I moved to April International but was going to check with my broker (AA Insurance) about the supposed hefty in band increase mentioned by a poster in another thread.

I eventually emailed my contact and after a while I received a reply from someone from a company called AA World............

In answer to some of my follow up questions -

This ties in with @Etaoin Shrdlu comments about Thailand based brokers selling International policies.

A subsequent email from a "manager" at AA World basically pushed Regency Health (Regency for Expats?) with a premium about 50% more than I am currently paying with April..........

They also pretty much ignored my request for current banding prices for April........

Apparently Jenny has gone and no more comparison excel sheets.........

Yes, Jenny is gone and effectively so is AA as a broker option for international policies.

If anyone can recommend a good broker for international policies please advise (it is possible to reassign brokers even once policy is purchased). In the interim I will deal with my insurer directly if needed.

topt · July 27, 2023

33 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Yes, Jenny is gone and effectively so is AA as a broker option for international policies.

If anyone can recommend a good broker for international policies please advise (it is possible to reassign brokers even once policy is purchased). In the interim I will deal with my insurer directly if needed.

My feelings exactly :thumbsup:

chubby · July 27, 2023

is there a list of "international plans" for Long Term expats in Thailand. Does it vary by country of citizenship, which plans one can use?

eg an American could not use an April (french) plan, etc?

mania · July 27, 2023

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Yes, Jenny is gone and effectively so is AA as a broker option for international policies.

If anyone can recommend a good broker for international policies please advise (it is possible to reassign brokers even once policy is purchased). In the interim I will deal with my insurer directly if needed.

Oh No AA is gone?

I use to get International policy quotes from Wim at AA & was hoping to do so again this year

Sheryl · July 27, 2023

4 hours ago, chubby said:

is there a list of "international plans" for Long Term expats in Thailand. Does it vary by country of citizenship, which plans one can use?

eg an American could not use an April (french) plan, etc?

No list as such but brokers can usually provide chart of options. Citizenship does not usually matter but age can greatly limit options for those over 60-65 years.

I am American and have the French April plan.

Sheryl · July 27, 2023

2 hours ago, mania said:

Oh No AA is gone?

I use to get International policy quotes from Wim at AA & was hoping to do so again this year

AA is not gone, but they only handle local (Thai company) policies now. I think due to Thai insurance regulations. Jenny left altogether, Wim might still be there but if so handling only local policy sales, if you ask about international they refer you to AA-world which is based in India and seemingly new. (Website not even up and running yet...)

There are other brokers out there handling international policies (i.e. based in Europe, Oz etc) but I just don't have any basis for recommending any of them. Would love to hear from those who do.

topt · July 27, 2023

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Wim might still be there but if so handling only local policy sales,

5 hours ago, mania said:

I use to get International policy quotes from Wim at AA & was hoping to do so again this year

Wim is still there but according to what I was told what Sheryl said above is correct.

Alotoftravel · July 28, 2023

Hi Sheryl,

I am looking for an international insurance for myself . Since there are no broker referral for April (French) insurance on this discussion , i google and found this

https://www.april-international.com/en/long-term-international-health-insurance
and enter info to get a quote . Is this the same company and this how you got yours . I am an American, living long term in Thailand that needs medical coverage .Thanks

mania · July 29, 2023

On 7/27/2023 at 11:09 AM, Sheryl said:

AA is not gone, but they only handle local (Thai company) policies now. I think due to Thai insurance regulations. Jenny left altogether, Wim might still be there but if so handling only local policy sales, if you ask about international they refer you to AA-world which is based in India and seemingly new. (Website not even up and running yet...)

There are other brokers out there handling international policies (i.e. based in Europe, Oz etc) but I just don't have any basis for recommending any of them. Would love to hear from those who do.

As always Thank You for your help & info! ????

Edited July 29, 2023 by mania

Sheryl · July 29, 2023

2 hours ago, Alotoftravel said:

Hi Sheryl,

I am looking for an international insurance for myself . Since there are no broker referral for April (French) insurance on this discussion , i google and found this

https://www.april-international.com/en/long-term-international-health-insurance
and enter info to get a quote . Is this the same company and this how you got yours . I am an American, living long term in Thailand that needs medical coverage .Thanks

3 hours ago, Alotoftravel said:

Hi Sheryl,

I am looking for an international insurance for myself . Since there are no broker referral for April (French) insurance on this discussion , i google and found this

https://www.april-international.com/en/long-term-international-health-insurance
and enter info to get a quote . Is this the same company and this how you got yours . I am an American, living long term in Thailand that needs medical coverage .Thanks

I think that site is going to take you to April Thailand.

Try this one https://myhealthinternational.april-international.com/en-us/profile/contact-information

(Put US as country of residence and Thailand as country of cover).

But double check that you have not been routed to April Thailand.

I got mine through broker.

Alotoftravel · July 29, 2023

Thanks for the url, I checked website and found that

The basic coverage $500,000 limit includes below wording , does that mean they cover pre existing , like high BP and cholesterol chrinic illness . Wow , good april FR coverage if that is the case. With $ 500 deduct, the insurance premium is reasonable compared to Thai with no cover on pre existing .

“

Hospitalization and other types of care in case of chronic illness “

this is a good choice

hammered · July 29, 2023

On 7/26/2023 at 11:48 PM, Sheryl said:

Pacific Cross (and other Thai based companies) will raise your rates based on claims history on top of age related increases. European based insurers are not allowed to fo this. So the premium difference you see in the charts is just a fraction of what may occur.

In addition PC excludes cover for "chronic" conditions and this includes ones that newly develop after policy is in effect. So if for example you have a claim related to cardiovascular disease or cancer, not only will there be a substantial premium hike the next year (additional to age increases) but a new exclusion will be added for that condition going forward. Western based insurers are not allowed to do this; exclusions cannot be added after the fact unless it is discovered you witheld or misrepresented information at time of application.

For anyone plannkng to grow old here, to me it is a no-brainer that need an internationally issued policy.

Thanks for that informative reply. It has helped me a lot. Appreciated.

Edited July 29, 2023 by hammered
to make clearer the reply

topt · July 29, 2023

1 hour ago, Alotoftravel said:

does that mean they cover pre existing , like high BP and cholesterol chrinic illness .

Doubt it. If you already have a chronic illness I would have thought it highly unlikely anyone would cover you for it if you changed cover.

I had my eyes "done" just before I changed to an April International policy and the one exclusion I have is anything to do with cataracts

Sheryl · July 29, 2023

9 hours ago, Alotoftravel said:

Thanks for the url, I checked website and found that

The basic coverage $500,000 limit includes below wording , does that mean they cover pre existing , like high BP and cholesterol chrinic illness . Wow , good april FR coverage if that is the case. With $ 500 deduct, the insurance premium is reasonable compared to Thai with no cover on pre existing .

“

Hospitalization and other types of care in case of chronic illness “

this is a good choice

No it does not mean they cover pre-existing. It means that there is no limit on cover for any chronic condition you newly develop after the policy is issued (unlike many Thai insurers).

Be sure to fully declare any pre-existing conditions on your application. They will either exclude these or offer cover with a higher premium (or give you choice of either one).

keithsimmonds · July 31, 2023

I bit the bullet regards AA world and contacted them regards getting me some sort of discount with April on this years policy renewal which had gone up by over 18%...no discount forthcoming other than the option of a 1000usd deductible instead of 500usd (i opted for 1000) Just paid the premium due of 2944.61 USD via Wise at a cost of 3 dollars....done for another year.????

chubby · July 31, 2023

On 7/27/2023 at 11:05 AM, Sheryl said:

No list as such but brokers can usually provide chart of options. Citizenship does not usually matter but age can greatly limit options for those over 60-65 years.

I am American and have the French April plan.

1- so don't use this

https://www.april-international.com/en/long-term-international-health-insurance/myhealth-thailand

Can someone recommend a Broker for the French April plan?

2- can this be used to satisfy O-A requirements for Health Insurance.

3- maybe it would be wise to join at age 59 then , vs. 64 ?

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