Converting from Non-IMM O to Non-IMM OX

[stat]

On 8/6/2023 at 8:26 AM, Mike Teavee said:

I would go for the LTR if I qualified (hold my hands up, I don't on income grounds as I'm living on rental/dividend income & due to Covid, 2000/2001 were bad dividend years for my main holdings)  and if I was already planning on purchasing a >8.5Million THB property (Which I am).... I wouldn't bring in $250,000 for any other reason than to purchase property.

 

I would have gone for the Non-Imm OX if it had been available when I was getting my 1st (Non-IMM O) visa hence me creating the topic, but have more or less decided now to wait out the next 2.5 years until I can show a guaranteed > $40K income from my private pensions and go for the LTR 

 

As an aside I really am hoping that any changes to Retirement Visa will introduce a new 1/2 way "house" between LTR/Non-IMM OX and current Non-IMM O/OA giving a 5 year visa for higher financial limits... But I know i should be careful what I wish for!

Thank you for your post! What exactly qualifies as income? Does

 

 

 

1. Dividends
2. Sale of shares
3. Interest
4. Selling of options?

 

qualify?

 

Thank you!

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Thank you for your post! What exactly qualifies as income? Does

 

 

 

1. Dividends
2. Sale of shares
3. Interest
4. Selling of options?

 

qualify?

 

Thank you!

I'm by no means an expert but I believe income from Dividends & Interest would count but capital gains from the sale of shares/options wouldn't. 

 

Other Income streams that would count are salary from a job, Pension & Rental Income. 

 

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Thank you for your post! What exactly qualifies as income? Does

1. Dividends
2. Sale of shares
3. Interest
4. Selling of options?

qualify?

 

Thank you!

All should as they are "unearned/passive" income.....that is, income not derived from employment.  Employment income is considered "earned" income.  

 

Also, see below snapshot from the BoI LTR website which talks earned and unearned income regarding a pensioner visa.

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

47 minutes ago, Pib said:

All should as they are "unearned/passive" income.....that is, income not derived from employment.  Employment income is considered "earned" income.  

 

Also, see below snapshot from the BoI LTR website which talks earned and unearned income regarding a pensioner visa.

 

 

 

Wow! How do you prove you’ve made a gain on the sale of Shares? 
 

As a UK Non-Resident for Tax purposes I don’t need to report (Non Property) Gains on my Tax return so do I just send them a screen shot from my Excel spreadsheets? 
 

I could send them contract notes from Shares I bought 20 years ago but I’ve sold /re-bought these dozens of times since so would that be acceptable?
 

Normally (for Tax purposes) Gains are treated on a “Last In / First Out” basis but how would they know that the proof of purchase I’m giving them wasn’t from a purchase I made years ago which I’ve sold/re bought many times since?
 

Plus obviously Capital gains are a 1 time thing with no guarantee that you will do the same next year, appreciate Dividends, Bank interest & Rental income aren’t guaranteed but at least you still own the income generating asset so it’s more likely you’ll still be getting income from it (there is zero chance of getting income from an asset you no longer have).

 

Makes no sense to me to have Capital Gains included as Income but as we all know, This is Thailand ????
 

As an aside, the LTR “Wealthy Pensioner” scheme based on Income is the only time I’ve seen a “Wealth” criteria be based on Income… All of the “Wealth”/HNW products I’ve ever had have been based on investable assets Citigold? $200,000 USD invested, Bangkok Bank Gold? 4Million Baht Invested, Barclays Premier account £100,000 GBP invested (though they recently changed it so you could qualify if you earn £75K pa).

 

 

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Are you sure? I mean how would you prove you’ve made a gain on the sale of Shares? 
 

As a UK Non-Resident for Tax purposes I don’t need to report (Non Property) Gains on my Tax return so do I just send them a screen shot from my Excel spreadsheets? 
 

I could send them contract notes from Shares I bought 20 years ago but I’ve sold /re-bought these dozens of times since so would that be acceptable?
 

Normally (for Tax purposes) Gains are treated on a “Last In / First Out” but how would they know that the proof of purchase I’m giving them wasn’t from a purchase I made 35 years ago (yes I have been investing in 1 of the companies I hold that long as I worked for them for 26 years). 
 

Plus obviously Capital gains are a 1 time thing with no guarantee that you will do the same next year, appreciate Dividends, Bank interest & Rental income aren’t but at least you still own the income generating asset so it’s more likely you’ll still be getting income from it (there is zero chance of getting income from an asset you no longer have).

 

Makes no sense to me to have Capital Gains included as Income but as we all know, This is Thailand ????

 

As posted earlier, pretty much any income that is "not" from employment is considered unearned income.   The BoI LTR website specifically mentions Cap Gains as unearned income.

 

Whether earned or unearned income it would need to proved thru tax/bank/investment company/govt official documents....and yes, documents available from country to country would vary.   Like for U.S. folks the Form 1040 Income Tax form, Form 1099R Distributions from Pensions/IRAs/Profit Sharing Plans, Form 1099B Proceeds for Broker/Barter Exchange, other types of govt/investment docs, etc.    Personally maintained docs like spreadsheets wouldn't hack it.

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

As posted earlier, pretty much any income that is "not" from employment is considered unearned income.   The BoI LTR website specifically mentions Cap Gains as unearned income.

 

Whether earned or unearned income it would need to proved thru tax/bank/investment company/govt official documents....and yes, documents available from country to country would vary.   Like for U.S. folks the Form 1040 Income Tax form, Form 1099R Distributions from Pensions/IRAs/Profit Sharing Plans, Form 1099B Proceeds for Broker/Barter Exchange, other types of govt/investment docs, etc.    Personally maintained docs like spreadsheets wouldn't hack it.

Yes… sorry I posted my reply before reading the image you’d provided (was on my phone) and saw that it specifically mentions Capital Gains as a valid income source. 
 

Makes absolutely no sense to me as Capital Gains are a “one off” whereas Income should be more or less consistent/guaranteed.
 

But then again, it makes no sense to me to use an Income ”yardstick” for a “Wealth” Visa… the 2 things are not synonymous.

 

Hey, TiT… we work within what we’re given ????

[Pib]

Just now, Mike Teavee said:

Makes absolutely no sense to me as Capital Gains are a “one off” whereas Income should be more or less consistent/guaranteed.

Many people buy/sell (trade) stocks continuously and each year a good portion of their total income is from Cap Gains. 

 

And many people also have investments in stocks/mutual funds that pay-out very significant Cap Gains/Dividends annually (assuming it's not a terrible stock market year) which they may just have automatically reinvested or they sell/withdraw all the Cap Gain/Dividends.   But regardless of whether they have the Cap Gain reinvested automatically or actually have the gains paid into a bank acct it's still "unearned" income.   

[Mike Teavee]

20 minutes ago, Pib said:

Many people buy/sell (trade) stocks continuously and each year a good portion of their total income is from Cap Gains. 

 

And many people also have investments in stocks/mutual funds that pay-out very significant Cap Gains/Dividends annually (assuming it's not a terrible stock market year) which they may just have automatically reinvested or they sell/withdraw all the Cap Gain/Dividends.   But regardless of whether they have the Cap Gain reinvested automatically or actually have the gains paid into a bank acct it's still "unearned" income.   

Cool, so in that case LTR guys should check your income every year to ensure you’re still meeting the income requirements as in no way are capital gains guaranteed every year (Even if you’re Warren B).

By your measure I could just sell enough stock to generate £65K gains for 2 years in a row so I meet the LTR income requirements,  then not worry about having any income (or investing anything in Thailand) for the next 5 years until the mid-visa check happens

 

Makes no sense to me at all…But again, I’m not the one making the rules so “play where I’m put”

 

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

9 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

By your measure I could just sell enough stock to generate £65K gains for 2 years in a row so I meet the LTR income requirements,  then not worry about having any income (or investing anything in Thailand) for the next 5 years until the mid-visa check happens

Yeap....that's a possibility based on current LTR required docs/procedures which focuses on 1 or 2 years of income proof.  However, I expect BoI could ways ask for additional years of income proof.

 

[ballpoint]

From the BOI site, it does appear that you are only required to show an income of at least USD80k for two years prior to applying, if taking the "passive income" route. Then, I assume, you'd need to do the same for your 5 year extension.  So two years prior, and years three and four would need this income if that is the case.

 

 

Required-Documents-for-Qualification-Endorsement-for-Wealthy-pensioner-16-03-66.pdf (boi.go.th)

 

 

[DrJack54]

There is a LTV thread with 73 pages.

Let's start few more. 

 

[Pib]

2 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

From the BOI site, it does appear that you are only required to show an income of at least USD80k for two years prior to applying, if taking the "passive income" route. Then, I assume, you'd need to do the same for your 5 year extension.  So two years prior, and years three and four would need this income if that is the case.

 

 

Required-Documents-for-Qualification-Endorsement-for-Wealthy-pensioner-16-03-66.pdf (boi.go.th)

 

 

Although BoI has not published the rules relating to the the 5 year extension personally I expect it to be similar/basically a repeat of the initial application regarding income/investment/health insurance requirements without any fee.   And below is a late June 2023 BoI response when asked about the mid term/2nd 5 year process where they say the extension process will be similar to the initial application.   I expect since a person learned how to ride the LTR bicycle application process on the initial application then the extension application will be less challenging/worrisome. 

 

Quote

 

Currently, once the remaining duration of your visa is less than 90 days, you will receive a notification in your LTR account and via email to remind you.

In your account, you will find a button for visa extension. The visa extension process will be similar to when you initially applied for the LTR Visa online.

You will need to submit the required information and documents according to the requirements of your specific visa category.

Please ensure to follow the instructions and provide all the necessary documentation for a smooth visa extension process.

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

32 minutes ago, Pib said:

Yeap....that's a possibility based on current LTR required docs/procedures which focuses on 1 or 2 years of income proof.  However, I expect BoI could ways ask for additional years of income proof.

 

To be honest the whole Capital Gains thing was an eye opener to me as I just assumed they would want to see a more “permanent” kind of income.

 

Appreciate Dividends & Rental income aren’t “Permanent” or guaranteed & in reality only a solid pension could give you that kind of surety but Capital Gains are by definition a 1-off (you get it when you dispose of the asset) so I didn’t think it would be included.
 

I appreciate you can re-invest the Capital Gains to get future income but assumed they were looking for income you can spend in country not recycle back at home. 

 

Anyway, thanks again for the heads up, I’m gonna stick with my plan of waiting 2.5 years for my guaranteed income to kick in in the meantime my Dividend/Rental Income are on track (famous last words) to meet the $40K pa threshold for the next 2 years & unlike Capital Gains, are (mostly*) evidenced on my Tax return. 

 

*in the UK we have ISAs “Investment Savings Accounts” which are not reportable on our Tax returns but I’m sure I can get something from my Broker to confirm income earned in there, hopefully I won’t need to ???? 

 

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

There is a LTV thread with 73 pages.

Let's start few more. 

 

Sorry @DrJack54I’m the OP & am more guilty of dragging this thread OT than most. 
 

Back to Topic I have read elsewhere that I can convert to OX in-country so will be visiting Maneerat on Tuesday to do my annual extension& will ask them if this is an option (I have the money in the bank + health insurance), but am expecting I’ll end up with another year on my Non-IMM O ???? 

 

[DrJack54]

14 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Sorry @DrJack54I’m the OP & am more guilty of dragging this thread OT than most. 
 

Back to Topic I have read elsewhere that I can convert to OX in-country so will be visiting Maneerat on Tuesday to do my annual extension& will ask them if this is an option (I have the money in the bank + health insurance), but am expecting I’ll end up with another year on my Non-IMM O ???? 

 

Please report back re converting to non O-X being a yes or no.

 

I recall years ago to and fro with ubonjoe and some random poster that to be fair was very confident of a YES to obtain non O-X inside Thailand.

Seemed to have facts to back up claim.

Perhaps that (as usual) was office specific and perhaps a "fee".

 

I've not been here in Thailand long time compared to many others.

Never met one person on a non O-X.

Seems to have very unattractive requirements. 

 

If you wish to look into LTV suggest a chat with @ThailandRyan would be useful.

Helpful guy

 

[Mike Teavee]

3 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Please report back re converting to non O-X being a yes or no.

 

I recall years ago to and fro with ubonjoe and some random poster that to be fair was very confident of a YES to obtain non O-X inside Thailand.

Seemed to have facts to back up claim.

Perhaps that (as usual) was office specific and perhaps a "fee".

I've not been here in Thailand long time compared to many others.

Never met one person on a non O-X.

Seems to have very unattractive requirements. 

 

If you wish to look into LTV suggest a chat with @ThailandRyan would be useful.

Helpful guy

 

I've seem to recall 1 guy saying an Immigration officer had offered him the opportunity to convert to a Non-IMM OX & I did stumble across a Website (I can't find it now) which suggested you could do the conversion but everything else I've read says you would need to get the Non-Imm OX from a "Royal Thai Embassy/Royal Thai Consulate-General in the country of their nationality or where they have permanent residence."... 

https://consular.mfa.go.th/th/content/80939-non-–-immigrant-visa-“o-x”-(long-stay-10-years)?page=5d68c88b15e39c160c0081e5&menu=5d68c88b15e39c160c0081e6

 

It doesn't cost anything to ask so will ask on Tuesday & report back but I am expecting a resounding NO... 

 

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

It doesn't cost anything to ask so will ask on Tuesday & report back but I am expecting a resounding NO...

Thinking that's on the money.

Some things can be done in Thailand with an agent eg retirement extensions without the financials . And something's cannot.

Thinking obtaining conversion to non O-X will be a NO

[Mike Teavee]

11 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

If you wish to look into LTV suggest a chat with @ThailandRyan would be useful.

Helpful guy

Would love to, but I don't currently meet the income requirements (am 2.5 years away from my pension)

 

Having said that I apparently do, @Pib has kindly shown that Capital Gains can be included as income but my problem is, as a Non-UK Resident for Tax I don't need to report my (None Property) Capital gains so have no way of proving it

 

 

Maybe in 2.5 years when I hit the big 60 ???? 

 

 

In the meantime I'm gonna stick with the Non-IMM O (Assuming they don't "Age me out") 

 

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, DrJack54 said:

Thinking that's on the money.

Some things can be done in Thailand with an agent eg retirement extensions without the financials . And something's cannot.

Thinking obtaining conversion to non O-X will be a NO

Agree 100%

 

Conversion to a Non Imm O-X is probably possible with enough money thrown at it but I'd be concerned (read wouldn't touch it with a barge pole ) if I wasn't sure that it was something that could legitimately be done in-country 

 

All indications are that it's not so I'm hoping Maneerat will confirm this. 

 

 

 

As a new Question? Does anybody know how long it takes to get a Non-Imm OX in their home country (Ideally UK)? 

 

 

 

 

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

As a new Question? Does anybody know how long it takes to get a Non-Imm OX in their home country (Ideally UK)?

I do not.

That visa is so uncommon that I have read reports that immigration officers are confused at airports. 

Rare species. 

[arithai12]

On 8/6/2023 at 12:52 PM, BritTim said:

Work out how much 10 years of extensions and re-entry permits will cost (without considering the costs for bank letters and travel to/from immigration offices) and then tell me that the 50,000 baht to avoid the need for them is excessive. In my view, the low visa application fee is one of the attractions.

 

If you feel it is not for you, fine. Many for whom it will seem attractive are unaware that the option exists.

There's one more point, which is to keep 3M in a bank at very low interest rate for 10 years, compared to keeping 800k. Let's see, 2.2M at 5% (easy) invested elsewhere, that adds up to over 1M Baht lost, or more if you reinvest the difference. So financially it really doesn't make sense. But I can see the point that for some people that's not so important, compared to peace of mind regarding extensions etc. Then there's the other very personal point, of who can see him/herself bound to living in Thailand for next 10 years.

 

[howerde]

I hold an O-X visa i tried at CW they said no have to get abroad, it was a suitable visa for me, as i did not live in Thailand, i had been using visa exempt entries for about 5 years but immigration were starting to question all my entries, it does require 3 million in the bank at the time i would get 0% in my home country so the 0.5% i got at the time was better. The rules say after 1 year it can be reduced to 1.5 million BUT the 1.5 million must be spent in Thailand with no rules showing what they will accept as proof

If you are living full time in Thailand then i see no advantage to the O-X, Another disadvantage is you require health insurance from https://longstay.tgia.org/companiesox

they are not competitive,

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, arithai12 said:

There's one more point, which is to keep 3M in a bank at very low interest rate for 10 years, compared to keeping 800k. Let's see, 2.2M at 5% (easy) invested elsewhere, that adds up to over 1M Baht lost, or more if you reinvest the difference. So financially it really doesn't make sense. But I can see the point that for some people that's not so important, compared to peace of mind regarding extensions etc. Then there's the other very personal point, of who can see him/herself bound to living in Thailand for next 10 years.

 

I understand your point but the way I look at it is the 3Million is just for the initial Visa & even this can be 1.8Million if you can show 1.2Million pa (100K pm) income. After that you need to maintain a balance of not less than 1.5Million (I don't believe you can offset any of this with Income). 

 

 

1.5 Million is roughly what I spend each year (though past couple of years it's gone over 1.6) & I keep roughly 2 years spends in the Bank (Topped up every 6 months) so am going to have the money there anyway. 

 

Appreciate that I could be making more money by investing it elsewhere but it's just one part of my overall "Portfolio" of assets & I think I should keep a certain percentage of it in cash.

E.g. If I had assets of $1,000,000 (approx. 35Million THB) then  1.5Million THB would be approx. 4,2% of my overall net worth (I'm from the UK so deliberately chose a USD example so as not to get side-tracked into a "How much are you worth" debate).   

 

I know people will point out that I'm only insured for the 1st Million THB BUT if Bangkok Bank goes bust what I would lose in THB would be dwarfed by the extra THB I would get for my GBP... Thailand would be royally screwed if something like Bangkok Bank went belly up.

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

9 minutes ago, howerde said:

I hold an O-X visa i tried at CW they said no have to get abroad, it was a suitable visa for me, as i did not live in Thailand, i had been using visa exempt entries for about 5 years but immigration were starting to question all my entries, it does require 3 million in the bank at the time i would get 0% in my home country so the 0.5% i got at the time was better. The rules say after 1 year it can be reduced to 1.5 million BUT the 1.5 million must be spent in Thailand with no rules showing what they will accept as proof

If you are living full time in Thailand then i see no advantage to the O-X, Another disadvantage is you require health insurance from https://longstay.tgia.org/companiesox

they are not competitive,

Thanks for sharing your experience, not many people have the OX visa so it's good to hear from somebody with actual experience of applying for/holding one
.

As I've said in previous posts, if I qualified for the LTR visa I wouldn't even think about going for the OX but I don't,.

 

However I do have the money in the bank & the health insurance (Visa Friendly policy with Pacific Cross) to meet the criteria for the OX & even if I didn't go for it that wouldn't change, so I'm thinking why not try.  

 

 

 

 

Can I ask where you got your Non-IMM OX and how long it took you to get it

 

 

[howerde]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thanks for sharing your experience, not many people have the OX visa so it's good to hear from somebody with actual experience of applying for/holding one
.

As I've said in previous posts, if I qualified for the LTR visa I wouldn't even think about going for the OX but I don't,.

 

However I do have the money in the bank & the health insurance (Visa Friendly policy with Pacific Cross) to meet the criteria for the OX & even if I didn't go for it that wouldn't change, so I'm thinking why not try.  

 

 

 

 

Can I ask where you got your Non-IMM OX and how long it took you to get it

 

 

I got mine in London, took them about 3 days, this was before covid if applying there make sure you follow the Thai London website rules to the letter, be aware my insurance has jumped to 80 000 baht a year after a small 15000 baht claim last year. i'm 61 also all the insurance companies said the cover was for 3 million the same as the O-A visa IT is not O-X requires 40000 outpatient 400000 inpatient cover, i just transferred my visa to a new passport a few weeks ago it took them 5 hours, they really had no clue how to deal with it, kept saying it can only be done at an airport eventually 2 supervisors came and told the IO to do it, she was not happy read all my documents line by line, at the time i tried using an agent in Thailand to do it they wanted 40 000 baht lol

[Pib]

@howerde

  How do you handle the OX annual examination of qualifications requirement as quoted below from the Ministry of Foriegn Affairs and Bangkok Immigration websites?

 

From MFA website:

Foreigners must report, in person, to the immigration officer every 1 year for the examination of the qualifications and supporting documents.

 

From Bangkok Immigration website:

Note: After obtaining a visa, you must come back for a qualifying examination every 1 year at the local 
immigration office.
 

[howerde]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

@howerde

  How do you handle the OX annual examination of qualifications requirement as quoted below from the Ministry of Foriegn Affairs and Bangkok Immigration websites?

 

From MFA website:

Foreigners must report, in person, to the immigration officer every 1 year for the examination of the qualifications and supporting documents.

 

From Bangkok Immigration website:

Note: After obtaining a visa, you must come back for a qualifying examination every 1 year at the local 
immigration office.
 

This is where it gets interesting, when i went to CW in 2020 i was told no need to report just come back when you have new passport and we will transfer the stamp, i asked 4 different officers, the same story, i then saw a 5th officer and showed her the requirements that i had printed off the London website, her answer not our rules, ask London why they have put that there, great, fast forward to last month when i went with a new passport to transfer the stamp, no this must be done at the airport, stood my ground til a supervisor came looked at all my documents and asked why have you not been reporting every year, well you told me not to. they accepted this but said make sure you come back every year from now on, she was ok but the IO was not happy, and from the website you mention it also states than an O-X can be converted to another category inside Thailand i did not dare to ask the IO i decided to quit while i was ahead

[Pib]

@howerde

     Thanks. 

 

     Your experience syncs with other OX holder posts (although few posts) I've read over the years where an OX holder typically gets a Deer-in-the-Headlights" type response when visiting their servicing immigration office although the MFA and HQ Immigration websites seem pretty clear about the OX annual re-exam/review process.   

 

    And am I assuming right you have not had went thru an actual reexam/review process yet?  But if you have did immigration basically just check to ensure you still had the required funds deposited and still had insurance.....and did they only look back only 1 year to confirm the required funds and insurance?

 

 

[howerde]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

@howerde

  How do you handle the OX annual examination of qualifications requirement as quoted below from the Ministry of Foriegn Affairs and Bangkok Immigration websites?

 

From MFA website:

Foreigners must report, in person, to the immigration officer every 1 year for the examination of the qualifications and supporting documents.

 

From Bangkok Immigration website:

Note: After obtaining a visa, you must come back for a qualifying examination every 1 year at the local 
immigration office.
 

As well as all originals i took 

copy of passport photo page and visa

copies of all yearly insurance, they check to make sure it is from an approved insurer

bank book,  and a letter/ statement dated same day from the bank

additionally they wanted the last 90 day report and a copy of the TM30( i had to go to ground floor to get those printed)

[howerde]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

@howerde

     Thanks. 

 

     Your experience syncs with other OX holder posts (although few posts) I've read over the years where an OX holder typically gets a Deer-in-the-Headlights" type response when visiting their servicing immigration office although the MFA and HQ Immigration websites seem pretty clear about the OX annual re-exam/review process.   

 

    And am I assuming right you have not had went thru an actual reexam/review process yet?  But if you have did immigration basically just check to ensure you still had the required funds deposited and still had insurance.....and did they only look back only 1 year to confirm the required funds and insurance?

 

 

I would say i had the review a few weeks ago, they checked my bankbook going back 4 years line by line(this may be because i had not gone to the supposed annual review), they also wanted the confirmation letter from the bank dated on the day(i got this downstairs from the bank) i had the last 4 years health insurance, but she only looked at the last years one and checked on a piece of paper that it was an approved insurer, they did not check it online against the insurance database. i am sure the TM30 check and 90 day report were just out of spite as it forced me to go downstairs to get them printed off