Retirement Visa using the 65,000 Income method ?

[bondjames007]

I am looking at applying for the Retirement Visa-O visa (Currently living in Thailand).

 

I will use the 65,000 a month Income for 12 months,  my monthly income will be paid into Thailand via Wise account.

 

Is this an issue ?  does the monthly transfers need to show that the income transfer came from an actual  overseas bank account ? 

[DrJack54]

16 minutes ago, bondjames007 said:

I am looking at applying for the Retirement Visa-O visa (Currently living in Thailand).

 

I will use the 65,000 a month Income for 12 months,  my monthly income will be paid into Thailand via Wise account.

 

Is this an issue ?  does the monthly transfers need to show that the income transfer came from an actual  overseas bank account ? 

What status do you currently have in Thailand 

Do you plan to apply for non O visa in Thailand? 

Does you embassy provide income letter? 

 

Monthly transfers need to come from abroad. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by DrJack54

[bbko]

I'm using that method now, with my bank in the USA, transfer with Wise and when selecting a reason for the transfer on Wise select "Long term stay in Thailand" and have it sent to my Bangkok Bank account.  Then update the bank passbook after the transfer to make sure it has the "FTT" code.

 

FTT is the code that indicated the money transferred is a foreign money transfer.

 

[bondjames007]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

What status do you currently have in Thailand 

Do you plan to apply for non O visa in Thailand? 

Does you embassy provide income letter? 

 

Monthly transfers need to come from abroad. 

I currently have non-0 visa based on retirement.  (used an agency before),  but I can meet the 65,000 monthly income requirement.

Yes,  Apply for a non-o Visa again in Thailand

No, will not have letter from embassy for proof,  just the 12 months deposit showing on my bank statement. 

 

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, bondjames007 said:

Yes,  Apply for a non-o Visa again in Thailand

No, will not have letter from embassy for proof,  just the 12 months deposit showing on my bank statement. 

You will need to exit Thailand and reenter Thailand to obtain new non O.

That is possible with a border bounce and reenter visa exempt.

For the non O application you need to show funds came from abroad.

You will need to have 800k in your Thai bank.

 

For the first extension you do not have option for "income method" 

You would need to use "money in bank method.

 

 

 

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, bondjames007 said:

I currently have non-0 visa based on retirement.  (used an agency before),  but I can meet the 65,000 monthly income requirement.

Yes,  Apply for a non-o Visa again in Thailand

No, will not have letter from embassy for proof,  just the 12 months deposit showing on my bank statement. 

 

Believe you have a one year extension of stay from agency and intend to apply for another (but not use agency)?  So they obtained first extension using 800k in bank method?  Was this based on real location and financials?  You are from a country whose Consulate will not issue a letter of annual income?

 

Payment by Wise is not an issue as long as into account in just your name and recorded as international transfer.  If not so recorded you can download Wise paperwork and contact the bank paying in Thailand to your account for proof of external source (or immigration might accept Wise paperwork).  You would likely require bank statements for the year as well as passbook/copies and bank letter of account balance/ownership.

Edited August 12, 2023 by lopburi3

[DrJack54]

11 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Believe you have a one year extension of stay from agency and intend to apply for another (but not use agency)?  So they obtained first extension using 800k in bank method?  Was this based on real location and financials?  You are from a country whose Consulate will not issue a letter of annual income?

 

Payment by Wise is not an issue as long as into account in just your name and recorded as international transfer.  If not so recorded you can download Wise paperwork and contact the bank paying in Thailand to your account for proof of external source (or immigration might accept Wise paperwork).  You would likely require bank statements for the year as well as passbook/copies and bank letter of account balance/ownership.

Seems the OP is on extension using an agent.

To switch to doing it himself he would need to have started 12 month transfers 12 months ago.

 

As you are aware immigration check financials retrospectively.

 

IMO he needs to exit Thailand and start over.

Obtain new non O either at nearby consulate or by visa exempt entry and do a conversion to non O retirement using TM87.

 

He will need to use money in bank method as his embassy does not provide income letter. 

[lopburi3]

We don't have enough information to really know what his status is or what he wants to do at this point.  He would seem to have indicated he has made 65k transfers for 12 months "I will use the 65,000 a month Income for 12 months" but then his asking "will using Wise" would work seems to indicate he has not done anything yet.  We don't even know nationality yet - maybe he could get a Consulate letter of income.  Suspect using agent again might be best course and the next year (with 12 month financials) start income method.  But we are blind without further information.

[DrJack54]

9 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

"I will use the 65,000 a month Income for 12 months" but then his asking "will using Wise" would work seems to indicate he has not done anything yet

Exactly.

The OP has been using agents.

That almost certainly means zero funds in the bank.

He cannot do a 12 month extension without using an agent.

He  needs to exit Thailand and obtain new non O either outside of Thailand or using conversion to obtain non O in Thailand from visa exempt or tourist visa. 

He stated that his embassy does not provide income letter.

 

So he needs to obtain new non O retirement and use money in bank method for first non O application and subsequent extension. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

2 hours ago, bbko said:

Then update the bank passbook after the transfer to make sure it has the "FTT" code.

And if it does not? Do you chase down the source and ensure that you have the proof that it came from abroad?

Edited August 12, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[lopburi3]

6 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

He stated that his embassy does not provide income letter.

Actually he said he would not have such a letter - so not sure if Consulate will not provide or he does not have required proof.

[bondjames007]

15 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

We don't have enough information to really know what his status is or what he wants to do at this point.  He would seem to have indicated he has made 65k transfers for 12 months "I will use the 65,000 a month Income for 12 months" but then his asking "will using Wise" would work seems to indicate he has not done anything yet.  We don't even know nationality yet - maybe he could get a Consulate letter of income.  Suspect using agent again might be best course and the next year (with 12 month financials) start income method.  But we are blind without further information.

Yes, I will use Agency an again this time,   and will use the 12 months of monthly of deposits for the next extension, to avoid the agency fees each year.  If Wise is not an issue with the proof of transfers, can I do it myself for the next extension, without leaving the country to obtain another visa.

 

I am currently,  on Retirement non-O extension,  expires End of October 2023.  

 

Thanks

[lopburi3]

1 minute ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

And if it does not? Do you chase down the source and ensure that you have the proof that it came from abroad?

Yes.  Wise will provide proof of transfer and information on bank used and you can contact that bank for proof.  Or from some reports just provide the Wise receipt if this is just a one off thing.

[DrJack54]

6 minutes ago, bondjames007 said:

I am currently,  on Retirement non-O extension,  expires End of October 2023.  

Simple question..

Did you have 800k two months prior and 3 months after last extension and not below 400k in other months in your Thai bank account.

YOUR money.

 

I'm guessing NO.

If that's the case you need to obtain a new Non O retirement.

 

You cannot just leave using an agent and do extension yourself.

 

Do you currently have 800k in your bank account. Yes or No. 

Simple question. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

2 hours ago, bondjames007 said:

currently have non-0 visa based on retirement. 

If you already have a retirement extension from an agent, continue doing so. It is only $30/month. Think of it as a donation to unfortunate people who are not able to generate dollar incomes but generous enough to let you live in their country in perpetuity. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[bondjames007]

3 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Simple question..

Did you have 800k two months prior and 3 months after last extension and not below 400k in other months in your Thai bank account.

YOUR money.

 

I'm guessing NO.

If that's the case you need to obtain a new Non O retirement.

 

You cannot just leave using an agent and do extension yourself.

 

Do you currently have 800k in your bank account. Yes or No. 

Simple question. 

Both questions are No,  

 

I plan to have 12 months deposits transferred each month as proof for the next extension.

 

I am looking at obtaining another Retirement non-O  extension but based on the 12 month deposits and not using an agency for next year, as I want to avoid agency fees each year.

 

Can this be done without leaving Thailand ?

 

 

 

 

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, bondjames007 said:

Can this be done without leaving Thailand ?

No.

You don't understand that when dealing with immigration directly without agent for your next extension it is clear that you used an agent.

The financials are checked retrospectively.

Meaning they look at you bank statements for previous 12 months. 

 

Also without embassy letter unless you have already done 12 months of transfers then that is not an option .

How many transfers of 65k per month have you done since current extension application.

My guess is Zero,? 

[bondjames007]

7 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

No.

You don't understand that when dealing with immigration directly without agent for your next extension it is clear that you used an agent.

The financials are checked retrospectively.

Meaning they look at you bank statements for previous 12 months. 

 

Also without embassy letter unless you have already done 12 months of transfers then that is not an option .

How many transfers of 65k per month have you done since current extension application.

My guess is Zero,? 

The 12 month deposit method will be for the next extension,  year 2024. Immigration can check my bank statements for the deposits from October 2023 to October 2024.  I will use an agency again for this year.

 

So my question is can I transfer using Wise and do it myself for next year without leaving the country ?

[DrJack54]

21 minutes ago, bondjames007 said:

So my question is can I transfer using Wise and do it myself for next year without leaving the country ?

Transfers from WISE is not your issue. 

 

Use the last option for WISE "reason for transfer" think it's long term living expenses.

Even if not tagged FTT. Your bank can provide internal transfer from o/s . Not a big deal.

 

So you are asking about extension for application in Oct 2024 where you can show previous 12 months monthly transfers.

That will work.

 

The one tainted thing is your bank book.

It does not show compliance previously. 

 

I suggest new non O application showing 12 month transfers  with 12 month statement. 

 

Use of agents to avoid financials is a one way street. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by DrJack54

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, bondjames007 said:

Both questions are No,  

 

I plan to have 12 months deposits transferred each month as proof for the next extension.

 

I am looking at obtaining another Retirement non-O  extension but based on the 12 month deposits and not using an agency for next year, as I want to avoid agency fees each year.

 

Can this be done without leaving Thailand ?

That depends on the immigration office. It should be possible, but (i) they may not like the fact that you used an agent previously; and (ii) some offices will insist that the 12 months of 65k+ transfer from abroad are not sufficient retrospective proof after an extension based on money in the bank [this is unreasonable, but known to happen].

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, BritTim said:

That depends on the immigration office. It should be possible, but (i) they may not like the fact that you used an agent previously; and (ii) some offices will insist that the 12 months of 65k+ transfer from abroad are not sufficient retrospective proof after an extension based on money in the bank [this is unreasonable, but known to happen].

For once I  disagree.

The OP has used agent previously.

IMO he needs to exit Thailand and apply for new Non O based on retirement. Either outside of Thailand or use conversion from visa exempt.

Will require money in bank method for first extension.

 

 

[BritTim]

16 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

For once I  disagree.

The OP has used agent previously.

IMO he needs to exit Thailand and apply for new Non O based on retirement. Either outside of Thailand or use conversion from visa exempt.

Will require money in bank method for first extension.

First, I completely agree that, if he does exit and re-enter, he is unlikely to be allowed the visa using form TM87 based on his 12 monthly transfers (though a few offices might allow this).

 

Second, it is possible that the application for the extension of his existing permission to stay (without exiting) might be denied because of the previous use of agents. That is not inevitable. Depending on the office, switching from agent assisted to doing it yourself is sometimes possible.

[bbko]

6 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

And if it does not? Do you chase down the source and ensure that you have the proof that it came from abroad?

Well, in my case early on, I didn't update my bankbook for a few weeks after the transfer and then they consolidated all my daily transactions into one line and the "FTT" code was not posted in my bank book.  I asked my Bangkok Bank for a break down of my daily transactions during that time period and they gave it to me, showing the "FTT" transfer.  My local immigration office (Pattaya/Jomtien) accepted it and I got my extension. 

[bbko]

4 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

For once I  disagree.

The OP has used agent previously.

IMO he needs to exit Thailand and apply for new Non O based on retirement. Either outside of Thailand or use conversion from visa exempt.

Will require money in bank method for first extension.

 

 

With total respect, if the OP already has a Non O visa based on retirement, why can't he just apply for an extension? So long as he met the monthly 65,000 international transfer requirement for the previous 12 months.  The fact he used an agent prior is irrelevant, his passport has a valid "retirement" visa.

[DrJack54]

4 hours ago, bbko said:

With total respect, if the OP already has a Non O visa based on retirement, why can't he just apply for an extension? So long as he met the monthly 65,000 international transfer requirement for the previous 12 months.  The fact he used an agent prior is irrelevant, his passport has a valid "retirement" visa.

It's not clear (to me) what the OP has done regarding the transfers.

At times refers to transfers in the future. Oct 23 to Oct 24.

Or does he mean that he has been doing 65k transfers from Oct 22.

I'm interested in this as I also wish to change at some point to income method after many years using money in bank method.

 

There is a thread here 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1250244-retirement-visa-non-o-switch-to-monthly-income-when-renewing/ 

 

Read it few times and still not clear. 

Has posts from ubonjoe who usually makes things very clear.

The issue for the OP is that yes his non O is a genuine stamp however his bank book will show he has not been compliant.

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by DrJack54

[lopburi3]

5 hours ago, bbko said:

With total respect, if the OP already has a Non O visa based on retirement, why can't he just apply for an extension? So long as he met the monthly 65,000 international transfer requirement for the previous 12 months.  The fact he used an agent prior is irrelevant, his passport has a valid "retirement" visa.

1.  He does not have a valid Non O visa - that was used for entry long ago.

2.  His use of agent was to avoid legal requirements for extension of stay - this will be evident when he can not produce bank passbook/statements with 800/400k for the entire prior year.

 

The issue is he is not in the required compliance with 800k being in account all year (with withdrawal to 400k allowed for about 7 months).  That in itself will prevent any further extension of stay be it 800k or income on basis of current visa entry without using agent.  He must start over if he does not want to use agent.  This compliance is being closely checked and he has signed paperwork indicating he knows of this requirement.  Have no idea if agent can make the switch to income or not as avoid them totally.

[DrJack54]

43 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

1.  He does not have a valid Non O visa - that was used for entry long ago.

2.  His use of agent was to avoid legal requirements for extension of stay - this will be evident when he can not produce bank passbook/statements with 800/400k for the entire prior year.

 

The issue is he is not in the required compliance with 800k being in account all year (with withdrawal to 400k allowed for about 7 months).  That in itself will prevent any further extension of stay be it 800k or income on basis of current visa entry without using agent.  He must start over if he does not want to use agent.  This compliance is being closely checked and he has signed paperwork indicating he knows of this requirement.  Have no idea if agent can make the switch to income or not as avoid them totally.

Spot on! 

[jaideedave]

12 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

If you already have a retirement extension from an agent, continue doing so. It is only $30/month. Think of it as a donation to unfortunate people who are not able to generate dollar incomes but generous enough to let you live in their country in perpetuity. 

1$ a day to remain in the Kingdom is a bargain IMHO  

[Mike Teavee]

As Immigration would check to see that he has kept the 800K for 3 months after his previous extension, 400K for 7 months after that & has had 800K for 2 months after that & assuming he plans on starting his Transfers in Oct 2023 then I think have he would have to.

1. Extend via an Agent using the 800K in the Bank Method
2. Make 12 x 65K transfers Oct 2023 - Oct 2024
3. Use an Agent to get his extension based on the Income Method (Without an Agent, Immigration would check back to make sure he kept the money in place following the 2023 extension).
4. Extend based on Income in 2025

Either that or leave the country & come back with a new Non-IMM O (Laos & Vietnam seem to be the best place for doing it locally) as doing a Conversion in-country would still require him to have the 800K in the bank).  

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

1.  He does not have a valid Non O visa - that was used for entry long ago.

2.  His use of agent was to avoid legal requirements for extension of stay - this will be evident when he can not produce bank passbook/statements with 800/400k for the entire prior year.

 

The issue is he is not in the required compliance with 800k being in account all year (with withdrawal to 400k allowed for about 7 months).  That in itself will prevent any further extension of stay be it 800k or income on basis of current visa entry without using agent.  He must start over if he does not want to use agent.  This compliance is being closely checked and he has signed paperwork indicating he knows of this requirement.  Have no idea if agent can make the switch to income or not as avoid them totally.

The use of an agent certainly may complicate matters. However, ignoring that, the use of income via monthly transfers is supposed to be an allowable means of qualifying for an extension.

 

Let us say you applied for a Non O visa at Immigration using form TM87 (where I agree 800k baht in the bank will often be the only qualification that Immigration will accept). Will you ever be able to qualify for extensions based on income transfers?

 

I would argue that this should be allowed, and you show you qualify by a bank statement with 12 monthly transfers of 65k baht from abroad. Once you are making these monthly transfers, maintaining the minimum balance in the bank should no longer be a requirement. Let us say you did in fact keep the money in the bank, so yet another year later you now have 24 months of monthly transfers. Must you show a statement with 24 months of monthly transfers to demonstrate that you qualified the previous year based on both income and money in the bank? Can Immigration again deny you based on the fact that you qualified the previous year via money in the bank?