1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Have to wait until Zelensky Ukraine has joined before the EU would consider the UK for any EU accession process and will the support to rejoin remain if the UK has to use the Euro as currency

I don't mean rejoining the EU, I mean a new trade deal, fixing the mistakes in the current deal.

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Or the EU to stop licking it's Sores and be reasonable because we left the club.

How has/ is the EU being unreasonable?

4 minutes ago, RayC said:

How has/ is the EU being unreasonable?

Ham sandwiches.................????......................????

6 hours ago, Sing_Sling said:

???? ???? ???? ???? The country is a laughing stock, its economy is in tatters, the fifth PM in eight years and the list goes on.  Brexit is done and the only ones dragging it along in the British public's mind are the politicians who still go on about the horrible EU, Brussels, von der Leyen, Germany, France etc...  Great at deflection for the uneducated and xenophobic masses

Incorrect, as can be seen by the reports.

 

 

IMHO Brexit is at this time neither a success nor a failure.

 

What IS a failure is the quality of the politicians who have not implemented it properly.

 

OTOH, if there is another referendum to rejoin the EU, who says that they will let us back in, and if they do, what will it cost the UK?

3 hours ago, transam said:

Ham sandwiches.................????......................????

See explanation.

 

Rule applies to all 3rd countries (non-EU countries), so nothing to do with EU being sore at the UK for leaving.

 

https://trans.info/uk-government-drivers-entering-eu-to-be-prohibited-from-taking-cheese-or-ham-sandwiches-214431

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

IMHO Brexit is at this time neither a success nor a failure.

What we can say is up to now Brexit hasn't delivered the benefits promised.

 

When will be the right time to make a judgement?

 

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

What IS a failure is the quality of the politicians who have not implemented it properly.

I agree that the post-Brexit governments have been inept however, it was never - and still isn't - clear what they were meant to implement because Brexit politicans either 1) hadn't given it much thought or 2) had differing ideas about what it should look like.

 

Brexit was all about leaving the EU. There was - and isn't - a plan for what comes next.

 

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

OTOH, if there is another referendum to rejoin the EU, who says that they will let us back in, and if they do, what will it cost the UK?

Imo the negotiations about the conditions for rejoining would have to take place before any referendum. The public could then make an informed opinion about how they wish to vote unlike last time.

3 hours ago, RayC said:

How has/ is the EU being unreasonable?

Being foreigners that have never like uk and we have never like them is that plain enough for ya. ????

44 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Being foreigners that have never like uk and we have never like them is that plain enough for ya. ????

So how has the EU singled out the hated UK as opposed to other non-EU countries? Doesn't Brexit mean Brexit?

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So how has the EU singled out the hated UK as opposed to other non-EU countries? Doesn't Brexit mean Brexit?

UK didn't belong in EU in the first place so waisted 40 years IMHO.

1 hour ago, RayC said:

What we can say is up to now Brexit hasn't delivered the benefits promised.

 

When will be the right time to make a judgement?

 

I agree that the post-Brexit governments have been inept however, it was never - and still isn't - clear what they were meant to implement because Brexit politicians either 1) hadn't given it much thought or 2) had differing ideas about what it should look like.

 

Brexit was all about leaving the EU. There was - and isn't - a plan for what comes next.

 

Imo the negotiations about the conditions for rejoining would have to take place before any referendum. The public could then make an informed opinion about how they wish to vote unlike last time.

quote "When will be the right time to make a judgement?"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

 

How long was the UK in the Common Market and then after it morphed into the EU?

 

The UK joined the CM in 1973 and the EU itself proper evolved in 1993.

 

A referendum in the UK on its membership of the European Union was held in 2016, with 51.9 percent of participants voting to leave.

 

That was about 23 years.

 

The UK formally notified the European Council of its decision to leave on 29 March 2017, initiating the formal withdrawal procedure for leaving the EU; following extensions to the process, the UK left the European Union on 31 January 2020, though most areas of EU law continued to apply to the UK for a transition period which lasted until 31 December 2020.

 

The UK was formally a member of the EU for 23 years and has been an ex member for 4 years at most.

 

IMHO a referendum should wait for at least 10 years, until say 2030 which is less than half the time that the UK was a member, or if you include the time in the CM and EU together, that is 43 years.

 

Yet people seem  1 to want instant change, and 2 instant change is impossible.

 

What I think is that neither David Cameron, Theresa May, Liz Truss nor Rishi Sunak were against the EU. Boris Johnson became the PM who took the UK out of the EU but I don't think he really knew what to do next.

 

2 years of Covid didn't help any country worldwide progress anywhere. So if I amy revise my estimate I would suggest that a referendum be held in 2032. Between now and then an independent commission be started to decide on

1   What questions need to be asked about rejoining

2   Who will be eligible to vote

3   What percentage is to be the pass/fail mark

4   Does that percentage have to be an absolute number. For example a minimum of say 60 % of all votes cast, or only unspoiled votes etc

5   Should the referendum fail, how long before another, if any, is to be be considered

6   If the referendum is successful, what should happen if the EU rejects the application

7   What will the likely cost of the referendum be

8   What will the likely cost of rejoining the EU be

 

 

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

quote "When will be the right time to make a judgement?"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

 

How long was the UK in the Common Market and then after it morphed into the EU?

 

The UK joined the CM in 1973 and the EU itself proper evolved in 1993.

 

A referendum in the UK on its membership of the European Union was held in 2016, with 51.9 percent of participants voting to leave.

 

That was about 23 years.

 

The UK formally notified the European Council of its decision to leave on 29 March 2017, initiating the formal withdrawal procedure for leaving the EU; following extensions to the process, the UK left the European Union on 31 January 2020, though most areas of EU law continued to apply to the UK for a transition period which lasted until 31 December 2020.

 

The UK was formally a member of the EU for 23 years and has been an ex member for 4 years at most.

 

IMHO a referendum should wait for at least 10 years, until say 2030 which is less than half the time that the UK was a member, or if you include the time in the CM and EU together, that is 43 years.

 

Yet people seem  1 to want instant change, and 2 instant change is impossible.

 

What I think is that neither David Cameron, Theresa May, Liz Truss nor Rishi Sunak were against the EU. Boris Johnson became the PM who took the UK out of the EU but I don't think he really knew what to do next.

 

2 years of Covid didn't help any country worldwide progress anywhere. So if I amy revise my estimate I would suggest that a referendum be held in 2032. Between now and then an independent commission be started to decide on

1   What questions need to be asked about rejoining

2   Who will be eligible to vote

3   What percentage is to be the pass/fail mark

4   Does that percentage have to be an absolute number. For example a minimum of say 60 % of all votes cast, or only unspoiled votes etc

5   Should the referendum fail, how long before another, if any, is to be be considered

6   If the referendum is successful, what should happen if the EU rejects the application

7   What will the likely cost of the referendum be

8   What will the likely cost of rejoining the EU be

 

 

I agree broadly with most of what you say.

 

It will be no surprise that I believe that the UK loses economically, culturally and politically by it's absence from the EU, therefore the sooner we rejoin the better as far as I'm concerned. Nevertheless, I accept that is not going to happen anytime soon.

 

I am against referendums in principle as I believe that we elect governments to govern, but I accept that it will be difficult for any party to stand on a platform of rejoining the EU without committing to one.

 

My timescales for any referendum are actually slightly longer than yours. Assuming a UK government lasts 4 years, there will be an election in 2032. By then, we should be in a position to see what the medium-term effects of Brexit have been and to have an indication of the long-term prospects. Imo any pro-EU party should commit to negotiating the terms of re-admission with the EU over the 2032-34 period with a view to a referendum being held sometime in 2034-36. We would then re-join immediately if the vote is in favour of doing so. (All this is, of course, dependent on the EU agreeing).

 

Your checklist of questions isn't imo exhaustive (you didn't claim it was) but it is useful and the answers should be clearly stated in any future referendum literature. Just a shame that the inept Remain campaign didn't think to press the Leave campaign with like-minded questions in the run-up to the 2016 referendum.

 

NB. Cameron and May were (are still?) Remainers. Sunak was - and appears still is - a Brexiter. Johnson is an opportunist. Truss is a 'poacher turned gamekeeper' - Remainer turned Brexiter - amongst many other things.

 

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

quote "When will be the right time to make a judgement?"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

 

How long was the UK in the Common Market and then after it morphed into the EU?

 

The UK joined the CM in 1973 and the EU itself proper evolved in 1993.

 

A referendum in the UK on its membership of the European Union was held in 2016, with 51.9 percent of participants voting to leave.

 

That was about 23 years.

 

The UK formally notified the European Council of its decision to leave on 29 March 2017, initiating the formal withdrawal procedure for leaving the EU; following extensions to the process, the UK left the European Union on 31 January 2020, though most areas of EU law continued to apply to the UK for a transition period which lasted until 31 December 2020.

 

The UK was formally a member of the EU for 23 years and has been an ex member for 4 years at most.

 

IMHO a referendum should wait for at least 10 years, until say 2030 which is less than half the time that the UK was a member, or if you include the time in the CM and EU together, that is 43 years.

 

Yet people seem  1 to want instant change, and 2 instant change is impossible.

 

What I think is that neither David Cameron, Theresa May, Liz Truss nor Rishi Sunak were against the EU. Boris Johnson became the PM who took the UK out of the EU but I don't think he really knew what to do next.

 

2 years of Covid didn't help any country worldwide progress anywhere. So if I amy revise my estimate I would suggest that a referendum be held in 2032. Between now and then an independent commission be started to decide on

1   What questions need to be asked about rejoining

2   Who will be eligible to vote

3   What percentage is to be the pass/fail mark

4   Does that percentage have to be an absolute number. For example a minimum of say 60 % of all votes cast, or only unspoiled votes etc

5   Should the referendum fail, how long before another, if any, is to be be considered

6   If the referendum is successful, what should happen if the EU rejects the application

7   What will the likely cost of the referendum be

8   What will the likely cost of rejoining the EU be

 

 

The main issue is not so much that It's too early to assess whether It's been a failure or not. The main problem is the absence of a convincing project. Not only convincing, but also able to get enough support and consensus. 

What we have seen so far, is governments trying to navigate in troubled waters, without any clear idea about to which direction to sail

For example, the ultra-liberal economists for Brexit (or whatever they call themselves now) have a clear economic project. It may work (with the usual drawbacks of ultra-liberal economic policies). But will it be in the interest of people who voted for Brexit because they felt they were "left behind", and will they support such a project? I don't think so.

So no project with a clear economic rationale, and also no project able to gather enough support to generate positive dynamics

On 8/26/2023 at 2:32 PM, Kwasaki said:

Or the EU to stop licking it's Sores and be reasonable because we left the club.

Of course, because the EU is the party suffering. ????????

 

What would be the point? Do they want to show the world yet another time what a dumb herd of sheep they are?

 

The Swiss population has shown time and again that they're educated and engaged enough to vote in referendums. The same cannot be said about the populations of most other countries. 

1 minute ago, Caldera said:

What would be the point? Do they want to show the world yet another time what a dumb herd of sheep they are?

 

The Swiss population has shown time and again that they're educated and engaged enough to vote in referendums. The same cannot be said about the populations of most other countries. 

Is that the same Switzerland , who like the U.K, are not members of the E.U ?

On 8/26/2023 at 4:46 PM, billd766 said:

quote "When will be the right time to make a judgement?"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

 

How long was the UK in the Common Market and then after it morphed into the EU?

 

The UK joined the CM in 1973 and the EU itself proper evolved in 1993.

 

A referendum in the UK on its membership of the European Union was held in 2016, with 51.9 percent of participants voting to leave.

 

That was about 23 years.

 

The UK formally notified the European Council of its decision to leave on 29 March 2017, initiating the formal withdrawal procedure for leaving the EU; following extensions to the process, the UK left the European Union on 31 January 2020, though most areas of EU law continued to apply to the UK for a transition period which lasted until 31 December 2020.

 

The UK was formally a member of the EU for 23 years and has been an ex member for 4 years at most.

 

IMHO a referendum should wait for at least 10 years, until say 2030 which is less than half the time that the UK was a member, or if you include the time in the CM and EU together, that is 43 years.

 

Yet people seem  1 to want instant change, and 2 instant change is impossible.

 

What I think is that neither David Cameron, Theresa May, Liz Truss nor Rishi Sunak were against the EU. Boris Johnson became the PM who took the UK out of the EU but I don't think he really knew what to do next.

 

2 years of Covid didn't help any country worldwide progress anywhere. So if I amy revise my estimate I would suggest that a referendum be held in 2032. Between now and then an independent commission be started to decide on

1   What questions need to be asked about rejoining

2   Who will be eligible to vote

3   What percentage is to be the pass/fail mark

4   Does that percentage have to be an absolute number. For example a minimum of say 60 % of all votes cast, or only unspoiled votes etc

5   Should the referendum fail, how long before another, if any, is to be be considered

6   If the referendum is successful, what should happen if the EU rejects the application

7   What will the likely cost of the referendum be

8   What will the likely cost of rejoining the EU be

 

 

I think that the first step would be for one of the political parties to campaign and run in a general election on the manifesto platform of rejoining the EU. - and win a significant majority in Parliament.

 

That would allow for a sustained public debate on the matter, ultimately decided by the electorate, rather than the cozy Westminster, media and establishment consensus which decided our relationship within the EU without any real reference to or debate within the electorate for over 40 years.

 

Once that has happened, and the settled will of the electorate is known, as opposed to the views peddled by the Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Guardian, The Independent and the BBC, then attention can be turned to negotiations, and the 8 points which you mention.

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Is that the same Switzerland , who like the U.K, are not members of the E.U ?

Indeed. But look at the quality of what they've negotiated with the EU, they've pretty much cherry-picked whatever they want to be a part of.

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Is that the same Switzerland , who like the U.K, are not members of the E.U ?

Do you understand that Switzerland has signed many agreements with the EU and pays into it for the privilege of being connected?

You think a similar arrangement for the UK would be a good idea?

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

I think that the first step would be for one of the political parties to campaign and run in a general election on the manifesto platform of rejoining the EU. - and win a significant majority in Parliament.

 

That would allow for a sustained public debate on the matter, ultimately decided by the electorate, rather than the cozy Westminster, media and establishment consensus which decided our relationship within the EU without any real reference to or debate within the electorate for over 40 years.

 

Once that has happened, and the settled will of the electorate is known, as opposed to the views peddled by the Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Guardian, The Independent and the BBC, then attention can be turned to negotiations, and the 8 points which you mention.

I don't expect that would be the conservatives and probably not labour. That just leaves the also rans and the wacky fringe people.

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do you understand that Switzerland has signed many agreements with the EU and pays into it for the privilege of being connected?

You think a similar arrangement for the UK would be a good idea?

A lot depends on what the many agreements would be. A lot will also depend on what the EU would demand from the UK as the price of entry.

 

Some would be good for the UK and others not so good.

 

I have no idea what agreements Switzerland has with the EU.

6 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Is that the same Switzerland , who like the U.K, are not members of the E.U ?

Switzerland, a member of EFTA but not of the EEA, participates in the single market with a number of exceptions, as defined by the Switzerland–European Union relations.

UK refused to consider a similar status.

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

I don't expect that would be the conservatives and probably not labour. That just leaves the also rans and the wacky fringe people.

People rarely will change  political parties on a single issue item as seen with the Lib Dems in 2019 with Jo Swinson and her pledge to revoke Brexit without referendum

On 8/26/2023 at 6:31 PM, youreavinalaff said:

Incorrect, as can be seen by the reports.

 

???? Another quality post.
Ah.  'The Reports'. 

No wonder the Uk is a shambles. 

'THE reports' that show all is well in the land.  

13 minutes ago, Sing_Sling said:

???? Another quality post.
Ah.  'The Reports'. 

No wonder the Uk is a shambles. 

'THE reports' that show all is well in the land.  

No. The reports in this thread. The topic of conversation. Please try to keep up. Thanks.

1 minute ago, youreavinalaff said:

No. The reports in this thread. The topic of conversation. Please try to keep up. Thanks.

Quote the parts of  'THE reports'  that state all is well and the UK is flourishing

9 minutes ago, Sing_Sling said:

Quote the parts of  'THE reports'  that state all is well and the UK is flourishing

Incorrect once again.

 

You said " Brexit is done". I said that was incorrect. A common view, as can be seen by the figures in the report.

Great idea. Rejoin a club that will give you a really bad deal when you re-apply to join. Besides the EU is going down the toilet economically, why would you want to rejoin, you dopes? 

On 8/25/2023 at 6:34 PM, candide said:

Yet...

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

Cherry-picking individual years again. Tsk tsk.

13 hours ago, candide said:

Switzerland, a member of EFTA but not of the EEA, participates in the single market with a number of exceptions, as defined by the Switzerland–European Union relations.

UK refused to consider a similar status.

That status has taken decades to develop and was not offered to the UK anyway.