Threat to "throw coffin out" by cemetery

[alyx]

Hey 

 

A decade ago I bought two "burial spots" for my spouse who is buried there and myself.

Upon purchase I was given  a basic receipt  and was told it was an in perpetuity burial plot. but was not put in writing

5  years later I was asked to pay an annual fee, which, although surprised, I gladly did for a couple of years  upon reception of their reminder. 

Then for. two years no news, then I did not pay

A few minutes ago I checked my spams and found a mail notifying me that, according to a new policy., in case of failure to pay three years in a roll "graves would be demolished" telling me to pay "otherwise you have to move out."

On top of the fact that I am kind of upset that suddenly I have to pay a maintenance fee, I am now flabbergasted to learn that my spouse and I will be thrown in a pauper's grave three years after I am dead  as nobody will pay for the maintenance,

 

Do they have the right to do that ? 

 

(Kindly do not ask me any details about names and location)

[2baht]

That's a good argument for cremation!

[KannikaP]

Sounds like a scam to me. Go ask the folks you previously paid money to.

[alyx]

3 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Sounds like a scam to me. Go ask the folks you previously paid money to.

Not a scam. It seems to be a Committee decision but surely there is a problem

 

[alyx]

8 minutes ago, 2baht said:

That's a good argument for cremation!

Not really because there are some urns "buried" there as well

[gargamon]

So when you die and get buried, if they don't get paid every year they dig you both up and send you to the landfill? 

[2baht]

12 minutes ago, gargamon said:

So when you die and get buried, if they don't get paid every year they dig you both up and send you to the landfill? 

Don't good Christians go to heaven when they die? ????

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by 2baht

[Moonlover]

17 minutes ago, alyx said:

Not really because there are some urns "buried" there as well

Belt and braces eh. just in case.

[Adumbration]

You concern is not logical.

 

If there is no one to keep up the maintenance payment on your grave, then there will be no one concerned that you are dug up put in a dumpster after three years.

 

Two golden rules applies here:

 

First, never....ever....pay for anything upfront in Thailand and make sure that any agreement is always in the form of a signed written contract....prefereably in both English and Thai.  If the vendor is not willing to comply...walk away.

 

Secondly, never...ever...put a Thai in control of any important facet of your life (or afterlife in your case).

[alyx]

20 minutes ago, gargamon said:

So when you die and get buried, if they don't get paid every year they dig you both up and send you to the landfill? 

it does seem so

[alyx]

1 minute ago, Adumbration said:

You concern is not logical.

 

If there is no one to keep up the maintenance payment on your grave, then there will be no one concerned that you are dug up put in a dumpster after three years.

 

Two golden rules applies here:

 

First, never....ever....pay for anything upfront in Thailand and make sure that any agreement is always in the form of a signed written contract....prefereably in both English and Thai.  If the vendor is not willing to comply...walk away.

 

Secondly, never...ever...put a Thai in control of any important facet of your life (or afterlife in your case).

Well, I think that my concern is logical...depending on one's belief.  Some of us do not want to be dug up after we are buried (maybe difficult for some of us to fathom that)> Personally I could not care less but regarding my spouse it is a definite no no. Not withstanding the fact that I want to lay by my spouse's side 

As for paying upfront, when someone dies, we, the living. have to find them a place and trust me when that happened I had nowhere to turn

And the Thai are not in charge of that particular cemetery, or at least not only them.

[alyx]

16 minutes ago, 2baht said:

Don't good Christians go to heaven when they die? ????

 

 

Why do you assume we are Christians ? works the same for Israelites and Muslims

[gargamon]

30 minutes ago, 2baht said:

Don't good Christians go to heaven when they die? ????

 

 

Good christians. Now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. 

[ezzra]

57 minutes ago, 2baht said:

That's a good argument for cremation!

Not if you're of a certain religious persuasion like a Muslim or Jewish.

[Adumbration]

You are being extorted because you did not heed the two golden rules I adumbrated above.  How can you comply with maintenance fees when there is no written statement regarding what they currently are or what they are going to be in the future.  What you should of requested from the outset was a schedule of the fees and the % increase in those fees p.a. (as used in a commercial lease)

 

I suspect this situation did not occur by accident, rather, that it is a scam built into the business model of the cemetry

 

You have now locked yourself into an unsolvable problem unless you chose to exhume your wife and move her.

 

Or, as I have already outlined above, just accept the fact that three years after you are buried both you and your wife will be in a dumpster.

 

Of course you could enquire if the cemetery has an option to pay a lump sum "for eternity" maintenance fee upfront for both you and your wife's plot to give you some peace of mind.  But in the shadow of the golden rules there is probably the same chance both you and your wife will end up in the dumpster.

 

And, as a final point, why are you expected to pay for everything?  Was your wife a childless orphan with no siblings?

Edited August 20, 2023 by Adumbration

[Denim]

57 minutes ago, alyx said:

Not withstanding the fact that I want to lay by my spouse's side 

In the UK a double grave is dug deeper not wider to save space. So whoever dies first gets buried deeper and the spouse on top later.

There has long been talk about moving all the graves where my father is buried to make way for a new runway at Heathrow airport. So far these plans have come to nothing.

[Adumbration]

11 minutes ago, Denim said:

In the UK a double grave is dug deeper not wider to save space. So whoever dies first gets buried deeper and the spouse on top later.

There has long been talk about moving all the graves where my father is buried to make way for a new runway at Heathrow airport. So far these plans have come to nothing.

@Denim How long since you have visited you Dad's grave?  I am not being nasty here, just genuinely interested.  My mother is sitting in a dreadful council cemetry in a public housing area.  I have no doubt her headstone has been vandalised by now.  This saddens me a great deal.  But I cannot fix it.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Adumbration

[alyx]

6 hours ago, Denim said:

In the UK a double grave is dug deeper not wider to save space. So whoever dies first gets buried deeper and the spouse on top later.

There has long been talk about moving all the graves where my father is buried to make way for a new runway at Heathrow airport. So far these plans have come to nothing.

In Thailand one buys the plot and I bought two plots side by side 

Mind you, buying is a big word as we are not allowed to buy land 

Let's say I have bought the rights to use these lots under an in perpetuity oral agreement and five years later the Committee voted a new regulation. 

 

[alyx]

6 hours ago, Adumbration said:

You are being extorted because you did not heed the two golden rules I adumbrated above.  How can you comply with maintenance fees when there is no written statement regarding what they currently are or what they are going to be in the future.  What you should of requested from the outset was a schedule of the fees and the % increase in those fees p.a. (as used in a commercial lease)

 

I suspect this situation did not occur by accident, rather, that it is a scam built into the business model of the cemetry

 

You have now locked yourself into an unsolvable problem unless you chose to exhume your wife and move her.

 

Or, as I have already outlined above, just accept the fact that three years after you are buried both you and your wife will be in a dumpster.

 

Of course you could enquire if the cemetery has an option to pay a lump sum "for eternity" maintenance fee upfront for both you and your wife's plot to give you some peace of mind.  But in the shadow of the golden rules there is probably the same chance both you and your wife will end up in the dumpster.

 

And, as a final point, why are you expected to pay for everything?  Was your wife a childless orphan with no siblings?

Thanks I am just dealing with the secretary of the Committee I guess. I kind of do find illegal what they are doing and that after a century in use they come up with new regulations without warning anyone (actually it is by chance that I met the secretary who asked me my details to send me the bills: plenty of tombs visited on a yearly basis whose owners are not in touch)

Regarding the payment, I do not expect anyone to support it as the family could not care less. 

[Denim]

7 hours ago, Adumbration said:

@Denim How long since you have visited you Dad's grave?  I am not being nasty here, just genuinely interested.  My mother is sitting in a dreadful council cemetry in a public housing area.  I have no doubt her headstone has been vandalised by now.  This saddens me a great deal.  But I cannot fix it.

Funnily enough, just this Friday past. ( first time in 5 years ) .My flight from Thailand arrived Thursday Evening and I was booked into the Thistle hotel in Longford. I was up very early Friday morning ( sort of jet lag ) and decided to walk to Harmondsworth cemetery about a mile away to visit my dads grave before continuing my journey to where my mum now lives. Fortunately , my sisters ex husband visits the grave once a year and keeps it tidy as my dad helped him out a lot when he was alive. Does this despite none of us asking him to do so.

[Adumbration]

1 hour ago, alyx said:

Thanks I am just dealing with the secretary of the Committee I guess. I kind of do find illegal what they are doing and that after a century in use they come up with new regulations without warning anyone (actually it is by chance that I met the secretary who asked me my details to send me the bills: plenty of tombs visited on a yearly basis whose owners are not in touch)

Regarding the payment, I do not expect anyone to support it as the family could not care less. 

Ok.  You are on your own then.  If someone (or a committee) has you on the hook for an annual payment, but is not willing to document what the payment will be, you are being extorted.  And because it concerns your wife it is a manifest example of emotional blackmail.  

 

You have four options as I see it:

 

1. Negotiate and pay a documented and receipted "for eternity" maintenance fee.  You might as well throw a bundle of cash in the woodstove...the outcome will be exactly the same once you have passed.

 

2. Exhume your wife and move the coffin or have her cremated.  This might give you some comfort.

 

3. Commence formal Civil legal proceedings.  You have entered into an oral contract, although it is not reduced to writing it is still evidenced by their offer, your acceptance and payment (the receipt), and your wife being in the ground there (Res Ipsa Loquitur).  Do you still have the receipt and any other evidence from back then....a brochure about the plots....text messages....emails...you need to check this and make backups and hardcopys of anything you find.

 

The court must then turn to the terms (and conditions) of the contract and this is where you may have some footing.  First, how can the commitee introduce a retrospective term to your contract (maintenance fees).  They did not request it in the first few years so clearly it was not a requirement at the commencement of your contract.

 

Terms and conditions of a contract is a rubric of law that is very complex (because it is the mostly heavily litigated).  The Court may find that upon the introduction of a new term (annual fees) your original (oral) contract was terminated and then a new contract (with fees) was created.  This is because the commitee requested payment of a fee and, very importantly, you accepted this and paid it (Clarius facta quam verba loquuntur).

 

Secondly, how can they then introduce a retrospective term that is not clearly defined and documented.  We can charge whatever we want for eternity is not a term of a contract it is extortion.  Even if the court judges that a fee can be charged, it must be reasonable, and how is that possible if the current amount, and future schedule of amounts is not clearly stated in writing.

 

4. Commence formal Criminal legal proceedings upon the grounds of extortion and blackmail.

 

Choosing the dumpster is the cheapest option.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Adumbration

[Adumbration]

43 minutes ago, Denim said:

Funnily enough, just this Friday past. ( first time in 5 years ) .My flight from Thailand arrived Thursday Evening and I was booked into the Thistle hotel in Longford. I was up very early Friday morning ( sort of jet lag ) and decided to walk to Harmondsworth cemetery about a mile away to visit my dads grave before continuing my journey to where my mum now lives. Fortunately , my sisters ex husband visits the grave once a year and keeps it tidy as my dad helped him out a lot when he was alive. Does this despite none of us asking him to do so.

That is wonderful for you...and your dad.

[alyx]

27 minutes ago, Adumbration said:

Ok.  You are on your own then.  If someone (or a committee) has you on the hook for an annual payment, but is not willing to document what the payment will be, you are being extorted.  And because it concerns your wife it is a manifest example of emotional blackmail.  

 

You have four options as I see it:

 

1. Negotiate and pay a documented and receipted "for eternity" maintenance fee.  You might as well throw a bundle of cash in the woodstove...the outcome will be exactly the same once you have passed.

 

2. Exhume your wife and move the coffin or have her cremated.  This might give you some comfort.

 

3. Commence formal Civil legal proceedings.  You have entered into an oral contract, although it is not reduced to writing it is still evidenced by their offer, your acceptance and payment (the receipt), and your wife being in the ground there (Res Ipsa Loquitur).  Do you still have the receipt and any other evidence from back then....a brochure about the plots....text messages....emails...you need to check this and make backups and hardcopys of anything you find.

 

The court must then turn to the terms (and conditions) of the contract and this is where you may have some footing.  First, how can the commitee introduce a retrospective term to your contract (maintenance fees).  They did not request it is the first few years so clearly it was not a requirement at the commencement of your contract.

 

Secondly, how can they then introduce a retrospective term that is not clearly defined and documented.  We can charge whatever we want for eternity is not a term of a contract it is extortion.  Even if the court judges that a fee can be charged, it must be reasonable, and how is that possible if the current amount, and future schedule of amounts is not clearly stated in writing.

 

4. Commence formal Criminal legal proceedings upon the grounds of extortion and blackmail.

 

Choosing the dumpster is the cheapest option.

Thanks 

I do think I have ground (pun intended) for number 3

Thanks for the advice ...let's see where that takes me in a country where bodies go up in smoke 

[Adumbration]

6 minutes ago, alyx said:

Thanks 

I do thing I have ground (pun intended) for number 3

Thanks for the advice ...let's see where that takes me in a country where bodies go up in smoke 

Please revisit my previous post.  I have edited to include an additional consideration.

[alyx]

I saw number 4 but I guess it will depend on the lawyer's consideration

This is why I did not mention it 

Also I think it is a civil case, not a criminal one, at least at this stage 

[Adumbration]

1 minute ago, alyx said:

I saw number 4 but I guess it will depend on the lawyer's consideration

This is why I did not mention it 

Also I think it is a civil case, not a criminal one, at least at this stage 

In my edit I raised an additional concern regarding option 3....a new contract (with fees) may of been created when you paid your first extortion installment.

[alyx]

1 minute ago, Adumbration said:

In my edit I raised an additional concern regarding option 3....a new contract (with fees) may of been created when you paid your first extortion installment.

yes 

The problem is that I paid a few times.... but no contract was issued and definitely not signed if existing

Incidentally what I understood is that it is a two step decision a) instalments b) a couple of years later decision to remove the "bad payers"

Thanks

 

[Adumbration]

7 minutes ago, alyx said:

yes 

The problem is that I paid a few times.... but no contract was issued and definitely not signed if existing

Incidentally what I understood is that it is a two step decision a) instalments b) a couple of years later decision to remove the "bad payers"

Thanks

 

The second step (b) you refer to is actually enforcement of their perceived contract terms.  This may be deemed unlawful (not enforceable) if your counsel can prove that annual fees are not part of your contract with the Committee.

 

How can they seek to enforce a term that is not clearly stated in writing.  Oh we are going to dig every one up because they did not pay an arbitary amount we decide each year....Committees are often used in dodgy practices like this to sheild individuals for personal civil liability and the moral spotlight (that is why there are so many Committes in Thailand).

 

As a first point of call your lawyer should also request a copy of the Committees incorporation or charter.  That document can then be analysed to see if it provides them with legal footing to charge maintenance fees.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Adumbration

[alyx]

3 minutes ago, Adumbration said:

The second step (b) you refer to is actually enforcement of their perceived contract terms.  This may be deemed unlawful (not enforceable) if your counsel can prove that annual fees are not part of your contract with the Committee.

 

How can they seek to enforce a term that is not clearly stated in writing.  Oh we are going to dig every one up because they did not pay an arbitary amount we decide each year....Committees are often used in dodgy practices like this to sheild individuals for personal civil liability and the moral spotlight (that is why there are so many Committes in Thailand).

 

As a first point of call your lawyer should also request a copy of the Committees incorporation or charter.  That document can then be analysed to see if it provides them with legal footing to charge maintenance fees.

Agreed 

It is going to be a long process anyway but I did intend to ask for the minutes of the Committees as well (Mind you they can always backdate new ones )

Thanks for the support

[ravip]

Why bother about your carcass? Live a good life and let nature take care of your remains... just my 2 cents.