It's magic!!!

 

 

Unfortunately, this guy came to the wrong interpretation of what is actually happening with this vehicle. 

 

In fact, this vehicle is using the potential energy of each payload, which is then converted into thermal energy from friction at the brake pads, and then converts this thermal energy to electric current, which is then stored in large on-board batteries. 

 

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has not been broken in this case. 

 

Some guys believe in perpetual motion machines, but I do not. 

 

But how efficient is the recovery of the initial potential energy? 

 

Well, you can derive everything from one equation, F=ma, plus the gravitational constant big G. 

 

Or, just ask big GG... 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

this vehicle is using the potential energy of each payload, which is then converted into thermal energy from friction at the brake pads, and then converts this thermal energy to electric current,

Incorrect, the break pads are not involved in the power generation and neither is thermal energy.

 

When I drive my electric car, I don’t touch my breaks, I just lift off the throttle and the same electric motor that was propelling the car forward now acts like a dynamo to charge the battery.

 

Potential energy is involved as it powers the motors in reverse much like pumped hydro. 

7 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

In fact, this vehicle is using the potential energy of each payload, which is then converted into thermal energy from friction at the brake pads, and then converts this thermal energy to electric current, which is then stored in large on-board batteries. 

 

The diagram in the video certainly implies that, it seems an odd way to do the job.

 

Your favourite AI (Bard) says otherwise:-

 

Quote

The world's biggest electric dump truck, the eDumper, uses its motors for regenerative braking. The eDumper is a 45-ton truck that is used to haul lime and marlstone from the sides of mountains in Switzerland. The truck is powered by a 600 kilowatt-hour battery pack, and it uses regenerative braking to recover energy as it descends the mountains. The regenerative braking system is able to recover up to 80% of the energy that would otherwise be lost as heat during braking. This means that the eDumper can actually generate more energy than it consumes on a daily basis, and it never needs to be plugged in.

The regenerative braking system in the eDumper works by using the truck's motors to generate electricity when the truck is braking. The motors work in reverse, and they convert the truck's kinetic energy into electrical energy. This electrical energy is then stored in the battery pack.

The regenerative braking system in the eDumper is a very efficient way to recover energy. It is estimated that the system can recover up to 80% of the energy that would otherwise be lost as heat during braking. This makes the eDumper a very sustainable vehicle, and it helps to reduce the environmental impact of mining operations.

In addition to regenerative braking, the eDumper also has a number of other features that make it a sustainable vehicle. The truck is equipped with LED headlights and taillights, which use less energy than traditional headlights. The truck also has a heat recovery system, which captures heat from the engine and uses it to warm the cab and the battery pack.

The eDumper is a pioneering vehicle that is helping to demonstrate the potential of electric vehicles for heavy-duty applications. The truck is helping to reduce the environmental impact of mining operations, and it is paving the way for the development of more sustainable transportation solutions.

 

So I challenged it:-

 

7 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Unfortunately, this guy came to the wrong interpretation of what is actually happening with this vehicle. 

 

In fact, this vehicle is using the potential energy of each payload, which is then converted into thermal energy from friction at the brake pads, and then converts this thermal energy to electric current, which is then stored in large on-board batteries. 

 

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has not been broken in this case. 

 

Some guys believe in perpetual motion machines, but I do not. 

 

But how efficient is the recovery of the initial potential energy? 

 

Well, you can derive everything from one equation, F=ma, plus the gravitational constant big G. 

 

Or, just ask big GG... 

 

 

Regenerative braking, turns kinetic energy into electricity.

13 minutes ago, Crossy said:

This means that the eDumper can actually generate more energy than it consumes on a daily basis, and it never needs to be plugged in.

This only makes sense if the vehicle only travels downhill.

 

Otherwise, how does it get back up to the top of the hill? A Star Trek transporter?

 

Note, Crossy, I realise that is an AI quote, not yours. 

12 minutes ago, macahoom said:

This only makes sense if the vehicle only travels downhill.

Otherwise, how does it get back up to the top of the hill? A Star Trek transporter?

 

The loads of rocks DO only travel downhill, the truck goes back up empty.

 

You need to watch the video ???? 

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

The loads of rocks DO only travel downhill, the truck goes back up empty.

Hmm… fair point. Interesting!

 

Even so, the weight of the rocks, the efficiency of the truck, the gradient of the hill etc. would all be a factor.

25 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

The diagram in the video certainly implies that, it seems an odd way to do the job.

 

Your favourite AI (Bard) says otherwise:-

 

 

I had assumed they were using thermoelectric generators on each wheel to convert braking heat directly into electric current to charge batteries. Apparently not. 

 

Maybe I was hallucinating this time, and not Bard. 

 

Just now, macahoom said:

Even so, the weight of the rocks, the efficiency of the truck, the gradient of the hill etc. would all be a factor.

 

The energy recovered from 150tons (rocks and truck) going downhill is evidently more than sufficient to take 45tons (empty truck) back up. Only 30% efficiency is needed.

Just now, GammaGlobulin said:

I had assumed they were using thermoelectric generators on each wheel to convert braking heat directly into electric current to charge batteries. Apparently not. 

 

Maybe I was hallucinating this time, and not Bard. 

 

That's a really poor diagram to be honest, the brakes aren't involved at all so why show them.

3 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 ... In fact, this vehicle is using the potential energy of each payload, which is then converted into thermal energy from friction at the brake pads, and then converts this thermal energy to electric current, which is then stored in large on-board batteries. ...

 

Regenerative braking does not convert thermal energy into electricity.

 

Whilst driving a vehicle with a regenerative braking system, the electric motor draws power from the battery to turn the wheels, creating the kinetic energy it needs to move. When the brakes are applied however, the process switches into reverse mode. Now the kinetic energy that was initially used to propel the vehicle, makes the wheels rotate the electric motor, turning it into a type of generator. Instead of consuming electricity, the motor/generator starts producing it, using the vehicle’s kinetic energy. The electrical energy is then stored in a high voltage battery, where it is used again to help propel the vehicle. Since regenerative braking converts the vehicle’s kinetic energy into electricity, it is also able to slow it too, in the same way hydraulics brake do with friction.

It's a You Tube vid. which for me = 90% BS.*

 

However convincing the argument may seem, it matters not.............it's still You Tube.

 

* The other 10% is brilliant but can be hard to find.

8 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Unfortunately, this guy came to the wrong interpretation of what is actually happening with this vehicle. 

 

In fact, this vehicle is using the potential energy of each payload, which is then converted into thermal energy from friction at the brake pads, and then converts this thermal energy to electric current, which is then stored in large on-board batteries. 

 

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has not been broken in this case. 

 

Some guys believe in perpetual motion machines, but I do not. 

 

But how efficient is the recovery of the initial potential energy? 

 

Well, you can derive everything from one equation, F=ma, plus the gravitational constant big G. 

 

Or, just ask big GG... 

 

 

No, as mentioned your understanding of the mechanism was wrong as it is converting kinetic energy directly into electricity just like about every battery electric car. You don't need to involve F=ma. All you need is the ratio of the weights of both full and empty truck plus the energy round trip efficiency of the electric motor and battery between recuperative braking and climbing. If say the efficiency is 50% and the weight difference was more than 2:1 then the thing wont need charging.

 

44 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I had assumed they were using thermoelectric generators on each wheel to convert braking heat directly into electric current to charge batteries. Apparently not. 

 

Maybe I was hallucinating this time, and not Bard. 

 

Thermoelectric generators have an efficiency of usually less than 10%. How would that work? Anyways, no need if you can convert the kinetic energy directly into electricity without jumping through hoops.

9 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

It's a You Tube vid. which for me = 90% BS.*

However convincing the argument may seem, it matters not.............it's still You Tube.

* The other 10% is brilliant but can be hard to find.

 

Here's an actual article. It does point out various inconsistencies between the sources, but whatever, the rocks going down generate more than enough energy to take the empty truck back up.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/361095/edumper-largest-ev-world/

 

And one of the project partners https://lithiumsystem.ch/projects/edumper/?lang=en

 

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

Here's an actual article. It does point out various inconsistencies between the sources, but whatever, the rocks going down generate more than enough energy to take the empty truck back up.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/361095/edumper-largest-ev-world/

 

And one of the project partners https://lithiumsystem.ch/projects/edumper/?lang=en

 

That is one scenario which will undoubtedly work providing the mountain quarry is high enough to allow time for regen. braking to do it's stuff.

 

What about another scenario where the quarry is lower than the road which is relatively flat?

 

Not very versatile but good for elevated quarries in Switzerland.

Whatever the system, kudos to the company for having the idea and investing the time and considerable money in proving the concept

 

Good for them 

This comes up every few years. I remember some guy trying to get me to invest in their fuel technology startup - trucks running on water - he was really hyped about it, even showed me a youtube video, but of course, I'm just as likely to endorse an independent financial advisor in a Nana bar as I am to celebrate a perpetual energy discovery and the endless riches that await..

 

This might work in the niche scenario pointed out and that's mildly interesting, but it isn't going to change anything for the rest of the world, clickbait videos

39 minutes ago, Daffy D said:

Whatever the system, kudos to the company for having the idea and investing the time and considerable money in proving the concept

 

Good for them 

Yup. Agreed but something like it has been done a few times before. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery

8 hours ago, eisfeld said:

Thermoelectric generators have an efficiency of usually less than 10%. How would that work? Anyways, no need if you can convert the kinetic energy directly into electricity without jumping through hoops.

As I have already clearly stated, not only must I have been hallucinating this morning, but, in addition, I was clearly out of my gourd for even considering such a solution as solid-state energy conversion from heat to electric current might be possible, even with state-of-the-art technology which has not even been dreamed up yet, sufficient to power anything more than a low-wattage light bulb.

 

So far, it seems that this is the best we can do:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.nanolett.0c00227

 

We have been using TEG for decades on space probes, such as Cassini, but, as you say...

Just a few watts of power is possible.

 

So, was this the stupidest thing I have written on TV, to date?

Absolutely.

 

I just hope that it will never happen again.

But, I hold out no great expectations that it will not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

So, was this the stupidest thing I have written on TV, to date?

Absolutely.

 

There are some who would disagree

 

Note: - I didn't say I was one of the "some" ???? 

4 hours ago, Muhendis said:

Yup. Agreed but something like it has been done a few times before. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery

Not saying it's a new idea, but for a company, at great expense, to convert one of those monster trucks could not have been cheap, Good for them  

 

5 hours ago, Muhendis said:

Yup. Agreed but something like it has been done a few times before. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery

 

Indeed, but in this case the initial energy input was from tectonic action getting the rocks up there in the first place ???? 

 

Has to be a first!

10 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Incorrect, the break pads are not involved in the power generation and neither is thermal energy.

 

When I drive my electric car, I don’t touch my breaks, I just lift off the throttle and the same electric motor that was propelling the car forward now acts like a dynamo to charge the battery.

 

Potential energy is involved as it powers the motors in reverse much like pumped hydro. 

Brakes..............????

10 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

The loads of rocks DO only travel downhill, the truck goes back up empty.

 

You need to watch the video ???? 

OK, but there's a case to say that's not efficient.

 

Do you think the clever supply chan operators have their vehicles do retrun trip with no load, no income?

 

No, they plan carefully (plenty of software packages to do the planning so that the vehicle produces income in both directions.

 

Is the giant truck the same? Well a some clever thinking might well produce some way the return trip produces some income. Myabe focused on big items which have low weight?

 

I'm aware of a very productive supply chain operator in Singapore, they supply everything to all McDonalds, all KFC stores and other food chains. on their return journeys they carry finished food products (in excess of daily walk-in sales needs) from many food manufacturers (incl/. McD, KFC and more). Many of these places use their ovens during less busy periods  to make bakery products. All well planned for total efficiency and best production of income. 

37 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Indeed, but in this case the initial energy input was from tectonic action getting the rocks up there in the first place ???? 

 

Has to be a first!

Nice observation but where did that initial energy come from?

And is that energy being released when the rocks are rolled down the hill in order to charge batteries?

And if the world was flat, what then?

21 minutes ago, scorecard said:

OK, but there's a case to say that's not efficient.

 

Do you think the clever supply chan operators have their vehicles do retrun trip with no load, no income?

 

No, they plan carefully (plenty of software packages to do the planning so that the vehicle produces income in both directions.

 

Is the giant truck the same? Well a some clever thinking might well produce some way the return trip produces some income. Myabe focused on big items which have low weight?

 

I'm aware of a very productive supply chain operator in Singapore, they supply everything to all McDonalds, all KFC stores and other food chains. on their return journeys they carry finished food products (in excess of daily walk-in sales needs) from many food manufacturers (incl/. McD, KFC and more). Many of these places use their ovens during less busy periods  to make bakery products. All well planned for total efficiency and best production of income. 

What do you envision them to deliver to a rock quarry site up the mountain a dozen times a day? A cold bottle of beer for the workers?

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

There are some who would disagree

 

Note: - I didn't say I was one of the "some" ???? 

I think you've got a double-negative going on here...

 

Anyway, for my illogical statement, I have put myself in the stocks.

I will remain in this condition as long as I think is necessary until I am satisfied that I have learned a lesson...

 

 

 

I wish i was born in 1920 and died already when i see this stuff