Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[BE88]

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

One of the many problems with this long tax thread is that topics get debated and then forgotten and lost so necommers such as yourself try to reinvent the wheel. It was long ago very quickly determined that a with holding tax on remittances stands absolutely zero chance of being implemented. Banks do not know what remittances are assessable income nor which account holder is tax resident. Holiday makers who have Thai bank accounts will stop vacationing here if their holiday money is suddenly taxed and property buyers will stop buying property is the purchase money is taxed.

 

For the majority of winter holidaymakers they don't stay more than 180 days in Thailand so they are outside the taxation of Thailand. But it may also be that the government that is desperately looking for money to keep its promise of 10,000 baht could also get to what you write.

Nothing is impossible at this point.

 

[BE88]

On the consideration that Thailand is not capable of taxing all foreign residents I would not be so sure, the ability to control the flows of money passing through the country is a much simpler case than one might think now with the electronic support of banks Thai, it will definitely be slow but not impossible in the end when the taxes arrive.

 

I wouldn't place a bet on this.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I asked you not to post for the reason you mentioned, that was a request, it was not an edict and I know you understand that.

 

You now also understand that you are able to start the threads you say you want because my post above confirms that.

 

This is the last post in this exchange, either open new threads or don't, the choice is yours but there will be no further back and forth on this subject. If there's anything further you don't understand, PM me Admin or Support..

New thread started. 

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

They may use SWIFT or IBAN etc to collect data from the Thai side.  Who knows? 

 

I'd be surprised if the Thai's left it up to the honesty of people to volunteer the amount of their remitted funds, but you could be right.  Even if people under reported their amount of remitted funds in 2025, that's still more money than the Thai government received in 2024.  It's just another earner for them. 

With the exception of Tax that is withheld at source (e.g. PAYE, Interest on Bank Accounts, Dividends etc...), I think most Tax is done on an "Honesty" basis and relies on people declaring the right level of "Income" under threat of being audited.

 

TRD have no automatic way of being able to delve into all of your financial affairs (They couldn't even point at my UK/SG Bank accounts as they have no way of accurately linking me to them) so the only way I can see them doing this is to set themselves criteria on what they're going to Audit & add in some Random Audits to keep people honest.

 

E.g. Take a pool of people remitting money into Thailand...

1. Remove everybody who has not spent 180 days in Thailand
2. *Remove everybody who has remitted less than 120,000 THB
3. Remove everybody who has an LTR visa that is exempt from tax on remittances

.... Then from this pool, audit everybody who has brought in > X THB & a random Z% of the rest (could be a sliding scale depending on how much money has been remitted).

 

*I would also add in a random Audit of people who were bringing in < 120,000 THB (maybe even higher) as I would be checking where they are getting the money from to live on (could be legit & their wives work so they don't need to bring in more than 120K) the threat of Audit would help deter people doing things like living off withdrawals from foreign ATM cards. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

With the exception of Tax that is withheld at source (e.g. PAYE, Interest on Bank Accounts, Dividends etc...), I think most Tax is done on an "Honesty" basis and relies on people declaring the right level of "Income" under threat of being audited.

 

TRD have no automatic way of being able to delve into all of your financial affairs (They couldn't even point at my UK/SG Bank accounts as they have no way of accurately linking me to them) so the only way I can see them doing this is to set themselves criteria on what they're going to Audit & add in some Random Audits to keep people honest.

 

E.g. Take a pool of people remitting money into Thailand...

1. Remove everybody who has not spent 180 days in Thailand
2. *Remove everybody who has remitted less than 120,000 THB
3. Remove everybody who has an LTR visa that is exempt from tax on remittances

.... Then from this pool, audit everybody who has brought in > X THB & a random Z% of the rest (could be a sliding scale depending on how much money has been remitted).

 

*I would also add in a random Audit of people who were bringing in < 120,000 THB (maybe even higher) as I would be checking where they are getting the money from to live on (could be legit & their wives work so they don't need to bring in more than 120K) the threat of Audit would help deter people doing things like living off withdrawals from foreign ATM cards. 

 

Your post goes to compliance / enforcement, for which I have just started a new thread, but since it is currently waiting for approval, I will reply here. 

 

Here's an example for you. 

 

I am Australian.  In Australia, if you do not supply your bank with your individual Tax File Number (TFN) the bank withholds tax at the highest marginal rate on any interest earned.  Simple for the bank to implement.  A computer does it it all, and sends the money to the Australian Tax Office. (ATO).

 

At the request of the RD, what's stopping Thai banks doing the same, but not for interest earned, but for all remitted funds?  At the end of the tax reporting year, you either have to pay more tax, or are refunded by the RD, all based on the flow of money through your bank accounts that all have the same tax number attached to them? 

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

287 pages to this thread shows foreigners are concerned, or there's an "uproar" or are "up in arms" but the tax on remitted funds policy is up and running.  Are you suggesting they will repeal it, or it will somehow collapse under its own weight of failure?  I think they will make up the rules on the fly and make it another earner from farang.

To be clear there is no new policy only a change to the implementation of an existing policy that means people who maybe weren't following the old policy correctly now have questions on how it works, but the way it works hasn't changed. 

 

The only thing that has changed is prior to 1/1/24 any income "Earned" in a previous Tax Year was treated as savings, which meant you could earn income from Dividends, Rent, Capital Gains, Overseas Employment etc... sit on it until the following January 1st then remit it tax free however I am sure some people remitted income in the same year as it was "Earned" without realising that they should have been reporting it & it is only because it is now more likely that they will need to report it, that they're trying to understand the rules. 

 

But there is no difference in the way tax should be calculated between:-

1. Getting a Dividend on 1/1/2020 & remitting it 31/12/2020 (Same Tax/Calendar Year)
2. Getting a Dividend on 1/1/2024 & remitting it 1/1/2026 (Different Tax/Calendar Year)

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

24 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Your post goes to compliance / enforcement, for which I have just started a new thread, but since it is currently waiting for approval, I will reply here. 

 

Here's an example for you. 

 

I am Australian.  In Australia, if you do not supply your bank with your individual Tax File Number (TFN) the bank withholds tax at the highest marginal rate on any interest earned.  Simple for the bank to implement.  A computer does it it all, and sends the money to the Australian Tax Office. (ATO).

 

At the request of the RD, what's stopping Thai banks doing the same, but not for interest earned, but for all remitted funds?  At the end of the tax reporting year, you either have to pay more tax, or are refunded by the RD, all based on the flow of money through your bank accounts that all have the same tax number attached to them? 

 

Interest is "Income" generated for you by the Bank & (Tax efficient accounts aside) is always taxable (even if you're not Tax Resident), so it makes sense for the Government to ask the banks to retain it.

 

Remittances are not always taxable & are dependant on you being Tax Resident so it makes sense for them to ask you to report it at the end of the Tax Year... 

[topt]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

To be clear there is no new policy only a change to the implementation of an existing policy that means people who maybe weren't following the old policy correctly now have questions on how it works, but the way it works hasn't changed. 

 

The only thing that has changed is prior to 1/1/24 any income "Earned" in a previous Tax Year was treated as savings, which meant you could earn income from Dividends, Rent, Capital Gains, Overseas Employment etc... sit on it until the following January 1st then remit it tax free however I am sure some people remitted income in the same year as it was "Earned" without realising that they should have been reporting it & it is only because it is now more likely that they will need to report it, that they're trying to understand the rules. 

 

But there is no difference in the way tax should be calculated between:-

1. Getting a Dividend on 1/1/2020 & remitting it 31/12/2020 (Same Tax/Calendar Year)
2. Getting a Dividend on 1/1/2024 & remitting it 1/1/2026 (Different Tax/Calendar Year)

 

 

Unfortunately the poster you replied to has been told this but keeps banging on regardless.

 

Not directed at you but I am going to stick it in this reply it is also unfortunately IMO that this thread has become like a never ending carousel ride and as such less and less informative to me and possibly others. Any really interesting information is becoming lost in the continually recycled arguments.

 

Certain posters also still seem to have the belief that the Thai RD/government even considered the effect on expats and how they, that is the Thai RD, are shooting themselves in the foot because expats are so important to the Thai economy......

I suggest that they get over themselves or look up any figures showing what %age of GDP we may represent.......

 

As you state many people on here should possibly have been completing tax returns for years but never have. Do they really think that the whole of Thai RD are going to suddenly target every expat next year.......

I am in general agreement with Mike on this as in whatever the Thai RD decide to do as regards compliance will be done at some point and we can only wait and see. 

[KhunHeineken]

14 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

To be clear there is no new policy only a change to the implementation of an existing policy that means people who maybe weren't following the old policy correctly now have questions on how it works, but the way it works hasn't changed. 

 

The only thing that has changed is prior to 1/1/24 any income "Earned" in a previous Tax Year was treated as savings, which meant you could earn income from Dividends, Rent, Capital Gains, Overseas Employment etc... sit on it until the following January 1st then remit it tax free however I am sure some people remitted income in the same year as it was "Earned" without realising that they should have been reporting it & it is only because it is now more likely that they will need to report it, that they're trying to understand the rules. 

 

But there is no difference in the way tax should be calculated between:-

1. Getting a Dividend on 1/1/2020 & remitting it 31/12/2020 (Same Tax/Calendar Year)
2. Getting a Dividend on 1/1/2024 & remitting it 1/1/2026 (Different Tax/Calendar Year)

 

 

In summary, would it be fair to say, as retired expat foreigners, we have never needed to care about it, but now we do?  Would you agree with this?  

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

Interest is "Income" generated for you by the Bank & (Tax efficient accounts aside) is always taxable (even if you're not Tax Resident), so it makes sense for the Government to ask the banks to retain it.

 

Remittances are not always taxable & are dependant on you being Tax Resident so it makes sense for them to ask you to report it at the end of the Tax Year... 

You completely missed my point.

 

The point I made was, it's easy for the RD to request Thai banks to tweak their database to supply them certain information, in a similar way the banks in Australia do, and I gave an example. 

 

My point revolves around computer databases and money flow tallies for accounts, not the tax law itself. 

 

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

In summary, would it be fair to say, as retired expat foreigners, we have never needed to care about it, but now we do?  Would you agree with this?  

Technically No I wouldn't agree - We always should have been conscious about when Income was Earned Vs when it was remitted & filed returns where necessary. 

 

Practically Yes I would agree, I've never heard of anybody being Tax Audited for not declaring Income earned in the same year as it was earned, those who understood the rules may have filed returns & paid any necessary taxes, but those who didn't I don't believe were at any risk of being audited, even when bringing in several Million THB to purchase a Condo etc... It just always seemed to be assumed that it came from Savings/previous year's income.

 

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, topt said:

Unfortunately the poster you replied to has been told this but keeps banging on regardless.

 

Not directed at you but I am going to stick it in this reply it is also unfortunately IMO that this thread has become like a never ending carousel ride and as such less and less informative to me and possibly others. Any really interesting information is becoming lost in the continually recycled arguments.

 

Certain posters also still seem to have the belief that the Thai RD/government even considered the effect on expats and how they, that is the Thai RD, are shooting themselves in the foot because expats are so important to the Thai economy......

I suggest that they get over themselves or look up any figures showing what %age of GDP we may represent.......

 

As you state many people on here should possibly have been completing tax returns for years but never have. Do they really think that the whole of Thai RD are going to suddenly target every expat next year.......

I am in general agreement with Mike on this as in whatever the Thai RD decide to do as regards compliance will be done at some point and we can only wait and see. 

I've started a new thread about compliance and enforcement that is awaiting approval. 

 

People may wish to discuss what the Thai government may or may not do in order to collect their taxes early 2025 on that thread.  Feel free not to post on that thread. 

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

In summary, would it be fair to say, as retired expat foreigners, we have never needed to care about it, but now we do?  Would you agree with this?  

No, we always needed to care about it but didn't realize that we did.

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

Technically No I wouldn't agree - We always should have been conscious about when Income was Earned Vs when it was remitted & filed returns where necessary. 

 

Practically Yes I would agree, I've never heard of anybody being Tax Audited for not declaring Income earned in the same year as it was earned, those who understood the rules may have filed returns & paid any necessary taxes, but those who didn't I don't believe were at any risk of being audited, even when bringing in several Million THB to purchase a Condo etc... It just always seemed to be assumed that it came from Savings/previous year's income.

 

So, where do you stand on it, Mike? 

 

Should we all do nothing and carry on as normal? 

 

Should we prepare for finally paying a tax that we now need to start paying, or should have always been paying? 

 

What wins out, "technically or practically?" 

[Mike Teavee]

8 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You completely missed my point.

 

The point I made was, it's easy for the RD to request Thai banks to tweak their database to supply them certain information, in a similar way the banks in Australia do, and I gave an example. 

 

My point revolves around computer databases and money flow tallies for accounts, not the tax law itself. 

 

You posted... 

I am Australian.  In Australia, if you do not supply your bank with your individual Tax File Number (TFN) the bank withholds tax at the highest marginal rate on any interest earned.  Simple for the bank to implement.  A computer does it it all, and sends the money to the Australian Tax Office. (ATO).

 

At the request of the RD, what's stopping Thai banks doing the same, but not for interest earned, but for all remitted funds?

 

Which I think anybody would read as Banks withholding Tax on Remittances.

 

 

However, if your point is around Banks providing remittance data to TRD then that is exactly what I expect to happen & believe they'll use this data when deciding who to audit. 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

6 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, where do you stand on it, Mike? 

 

Should we all do nothing and carry on as normal? 

 

Should we prepare for finally paying a tax that we now need to start paying, or should have always been paying? 

 

What wins out, "technically or practically?" 

 

It's up to the individual to look at their circumstances & assess what the best course of action is for them, I'm one of those people that tends to follow the rules so will be adjusting how much money I remit into Thailand & limiting it to...

1. Maximum I know has no tax owed on it (in my case it's 235K)
2. Same for the GF (in her case 210K)

... But I won't be filing a tax return for either of us, even though I know I should, the 2K file is not enough of a deterrent to make me file especially as it would end up with them owing me > 5K in withheld interest from my Thai Bank accounts.

 

The rest of the money I need to live on will come from savings already in Thailand until 2026 when I plan on spending 6 months outside of Thailand, & applying for an LTR Visa (remitting 10-12 Million to buy a Condo & meet the $250K investment needed for the LTR).

 

 

I can't be the only one that's going to be remitting less money because of this change, would be interesting to get any stats on just how much less is being remitted as a direct result of the change (I'd say I'm remitting approx. 25% of what I would normally plan to remit) 

 

[KhunHeineken]

19 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

You posted... 

I am Australian.  In Australia, if you do not supply your bank with your individual Tax File Number (TFN) the bank withholds tax at the highest marginal rate on any interest earned.  Simple for the bank to implement.  A computer does it it all, and sends the money to the Australian Tax Office. (ATO).

 

At the request of the RD, what's stopping Thai banks doing the same, but not for interest earned, but for all remitted funds?

 

Which I think anybody would read as Banks withholding Tax on Remittances.

 

 

However, if your point is around Banks providing remittance data to TRD then that is exactly what I expect to happen & believe they'll use this data when deciding who to audit. 

 

 

Allow my to clarify. 

 

I used the example of what a bank database can be tweaked to do by the bank's IT section, at the request of the Australian Tax Office. 

 

The Thai RD can request similar.  The variation would be on the total of remitted funds, not the total of interest earned.

 

The last sentence of your post sums up the point I am making, and I too expect it to happen. 

 

Once again, this goes to compliance / enforcement, for which I have started a thread that is awaiting approval.   

Edited May 18 by KhunHeineken

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

New thread started. 

Where and what title?

[JimGant]

9 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I can't be the only one that's going to be remitting less money because of this change, would be interesting to get any stats on just how much less is being remitted as a direct result of the change

I imagine most are just waiting for further guidance. Or, if a Yank, nothing will change for them in total taxes paid, albeit Thailand may now finally get some US money in their tax coffers, but the US taxpayer will receive an equal credit against their US tax bill. This, of course, is what Thailand is hoping to see with their new policy -- finally using DTAs to their advantage to collect what the DTA says is their prerogative.

 

It's just so interesting, as a Yank always having to pay full-fare in taxes, to see all the hand wringers out there faced with finally to have to pay someone -- home country or Thailand -- taxes. Welcome to the new OECD world of: we're doing our best to eliminate:  "no no taxes."

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Allow my to clarify. 

 

I used the example of what a bank database can be tweaked to do by the bank's IT section, at the request of the Australian Tax Office. 

 

The Thai RD can request similar.  The variation would be on the total of remitted funds, not the total of interest earned.

 

The last sentence of your post sums up the point I am making, and I too expect it to happen. 

 

Once again, this goes to compliance / enforcement, for which I have started a thread that is awaiting approval.   

Your new thread post is not going to be allowed....why, you ask?

 

I earlier wrote that members can start new threads about whatever their hearts desired, as long as: "it's with in the rules, doesn't overlap with existing threads, is legal, isn't scaremongering and if it's whatifery, that the opening post states that very clearly and also, exactly what its focus is. 

 

Your thread failed the above tests on multiple grounds, not the least of which was the inclusion of a list of things suggesting that members might possibly be subject to:

 

Garnisheeing bank accounts for tax owed.

Freezing bank accounts.

Airport / Boarder warnings. (being detained until tax is paid on entry / exit)

Deportation.

Blacklisting.

Seizing property. 

Stopping the sale / transfer of property. 

Arrest and imprisonment until tax is paid. 

Taxing your estate after death. 

 

I felt that you missed "snatch squads" off your list where foreign habitats in Thailand were patrolled by press gangs who might abduct unsuspecting foreigners off the street and subject them to torture and the third degree, regarding whether they owed tax or not!!!

 

If all those things are not scaremongering, I don't know what is.

 

It further failed on the basis that it was extraordinarily long and the whole point of it was unclear. We don't offer a post writing or editing service so it's down to members to write their posts in such a way that they conform to the rules, are easily understandable and in factual threads, sensible.

 

Please don't tell us again that you have been forbidden to discuss a specific topic because you haven't, subject to the criteria listed above.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, topt said:

it is also unfortunately IMO that this thread has become like a never ending carousel ride and as such less and less informative to me and possibly others. Any really interesting information is becoming lost in the continually recycled arguments.

 

Certain posters also still seem to have the belief that the Thai RD/government even considered the effect on expats and how they, that is the Thai RD, are shooting themselves in the foot because expats are so important to the Thai economy......

I suggest that they get over themselves or look up any figures showing what %age of GDP we may represent.......

 

As you state many people on here should possibly have been completing tax returns for years but never have. Do they really think that the whole of Thai RD are going to suddenly target every expat next year.......

 

I am in general agreement with Mike on this as in whatever the Thai RD decide to do as regards compliance will be done at some point and we can only wait and see. 

An excellent post that reflects my sentiments also.

 

I also agree that this thread is at risk of losing its way as a result of recycling old information and topics and the constant harping on about not being able to discuss certain aspects, which is patently untrue. I'm also getting a sense that the discussions currently are being dominated by a very small handful of members who I will ask to better rationalise their responses and opinions.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, BE88 said:

 

For the majority of winter holidaymakers they don't stay more than 180 days in Thailand so they are outside the taxation of Thailand. But it may also be that the government that is desperately looking for money to keep its promise of 10,000 baht could also get to what you write.

Nothing is impossible at this point.

 

I think that shows a lack of understanding of Thai economics.  Thailand's foreign currency reserves are 15 times greater than the proposed initial cost of the giveaway scheme.

[BE88]

27 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I think that shows a lack of understanding of Thai economics.  Thailand's foreign currency reserves are 15 times greater than the proposed initial cost of the giveaway scheme.

 

This is why central banks exist, to keep reserves out of the hands of politicians who only think about getting re-elected.

[KhunHeineken]

39 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

An excellent post that reflects my sentiments also.

 

I also agree that this thread is at risk of losing its way as a result of recycling old information and topics and the constant harping on about not being able to discuss certain aspects, which is patently untrue. I'm also getting a sense that the discussions currently are being dominated by a very small handful of members who I will ask to better rationalise their responses and opinions.

 

 

People clearly want to discuss compliance / enforcement, as we are now past whether the tax policy will come into force, or not.  I tried to start a thread about it and failed. 

 

Perhaps another member may have better luck starting a thread on the topic so interested members can continue discussion on that thread and not on this thread. 

[Mike Lister]

24 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

People clearly want to discuss compliance / enforcement, as we are now past whether the tax policy will come into force, or not.  I tried to start a thread about it and failed. 

 

Perhaps another member may have better luck starting a thread on the topic so interested members can continue discussion on that thread and not on this thread. 

It is only your opinion that the tax policy will come into effect, there are still those who think it will be cancelled. It is also only your opinion that people want to discuss enforcement and compliance, nobody else has said they want that. 

[redwood1]

I thought this tax was for Farang and Thais alike...

 

I read the news EVERY DAY.....

 

And do you know how many news stories I have read about Thais paying a new tax in the last 6 months....

 

A grand Total of ZERO......Nope not a single news story of any kind what so ever about Thais paying a income tax.....

 

Strange is it not? 

 

How about a news story about the Chinese, Russians, Indians, Koreans etc are worried about a new tax?.....Nope a big ZERO on that too...

 

The only people that seem concerned are a very small sub-set of the western farang...

[moogradod]

36 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

People clearly want to discuss compliance / enforcement, as we are now past whether the tax policy will come into force, or not.  I tried to start a thread about it and failed. 

 

Perhaps another member may have better luck starting a thread on the topic so interested members can continue discussion on that thread and not on this thread. 

 

I agree that enforcement is of utmost importance and examples how anybody was treated are interesting. Why we should discuss for example the differences of IO (which we do to the benefit of readers). Actually local handling of any issue and local made up rules is all that matters.

[Mike Lister]

Here is a copy of the Forum rules which will allow everyone to to understand what languages are permissible for forum content and what things may be commented upon and what things may not.

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Huh?  I never posted a French language video. 

My error, apologies

[KhunHeineken]

9 minutes ago, moogradod said:

 

I agree that enforcement is of utmost importance and examples how anybody was treated are interesting. Why we should discuss for example the differences of IO (which we do to the benefit of readers). Actually local handling of any issue and local made up rules is all that matters.

I agree.  You can't have legislation without any form of enforcement. 

 

Start a thread about it.  I tried and is was disallowed.  You may have more luck. 

Edited May 18 by KhunHeineken