Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[JimGant]

On 10/15/2023 at 1:46 PM, stargazer9999 said:

It is my understanding that the USA has had a double tax treaty with Thailand since 1997.  Does this help USA citizens in any way to avoid this new tax?

Absolutely. First, Yanks pay income tax on all their worldwide income, which, of course, would include any and all income subject to Thai income tax. So, assuming this initial guidance is true, which said, "If your home country has a DTA with Thailand, and you pay income tax in your home country, then you're not affected by this new ruling" -- well, Yanks are home free. Even the nebulous "if you pay income tax" in your home country, which possibly would, in some countries, not cover taxation of income subject to Thai income tax -- again, as a Yank, you DO pay tax on any and all income subject to Thai tax.

 

Now, the DTA makes US Govt pensions, and Social Security, the "exclusive" taxing right of the US. So, if I wanted to isolate these payments as direct deposits to a separate US bank account -- then a Wise wire of these funds to Thailand would stand out as completely exempt from Thai taxes. [But, currently I Wise-wire these funds from a savings account over ten years old, and complete with former years' direct deposits and other fungible amounts of deposits. But, I would feel confident arguing what funds were actually wired -- not that FIFO or LIFO accounting would resonate with Thai authorities.]

 

Anyway, the only thing that could possibly be changed with the new ruling is: I wire some of my cashed in IRA funds to Thailand -- and under current rules, I wire these in a later year, thus avoiding taxation. But the DTA says, Thailand has 'first taxation rights' on these IRA funds -- ok, but they don't, under their own (current) rules, that say it's not taxable if brought in in a a later year.

 

But, yeah, under the new proposal, if I wire these IRA funds to Thailand in current year, or in a later year -- they're taxable by Thailand under the DTA. So, I have to declare these on a Thai tax return. But as my IRA funds aren't too large, the Thai tax would be considerably less than what the taxes would be on these same funds on my US return -- so the tax credit means the total taxation between the two countries is a wash. [The DTA saving clause says these IRA funds are NOT exclusively taxable by Thailand -- but have to be included in your US tax return.]

 

Anyway, long explanation. Bottom line: Yanks won't be affected in their total tax bill, between US and Thailand, with these new rules. DTA keeps numbers the same -- maybe only a Thai tax return in your future, but at no cost but time.

[Mike Lister]

25 minutes ago, samtam said:

Except 90% who fall into this category, (say a maid who earns THB12,000 per month, or THB144,000 pa) does not pay a satang, because she gets it in cash.

Yes, and?

 

The issue is imported funds from overseas and tax payable on that money by foreigners who are tax resident in Thailand. The issue is not the grey market economy here. The RD can't easily prove that maid got paid cash in hand but they can easily rove that Jonny Foreigner received 250k Baht from Nat West Bank in Croydon.

[samtam]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, and?

 

The issue is imported funds from overseas and tax payable on that money by foreigners who are tax resident in Thailand. The issue is not the grey market economy here. The RD can't easily prove that maid got paid cash in hand but they can easily rove that Jonny Foreigner received 250k Baht from Nat West Bank in Croydon.

And...my point is the stupidity of the new interpretation.

Jonny Foreigner might also have imported money from several sources, many of them falling into the so-called grey market economy.

Edited October 16, 2023 by samtam

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, samtam said:

And...my point is the stupidity of the new interpretation.

Jonny Foreigner might also have imported money from several sources, many of them falling into the so-called grey market economy.

This is not an exercise designed to catch mafiosa, triad and general bad criminal elements in Thailand. This is an exercise to force otherwise law biding citizens to declare overseas income, force other residents to comply with the same ruling and to adopt common international practise. That some may continue to earn income from criminal activity is a different program of work.

[The Cyclist]

25 minutes ago, JimGant said:

If your home country has a DTA with Thailand, and you pay income tax in your home country, then you're not affected by this new ruling"

The very point that the doom-mongers cannot read or understand.

[samtam]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

This is not an exercise designed to catch mafiosa, triad and general bad criminal elements in Thailand. This is an exercise to force otherwise law biding citizens to declare overseas income, force other residents to comply with the same ruling and to adopt common international practise. That some may continue to earn income from criminal activity is a different program of work.

My maid hardly falls into the mafioso, triad or criminal class, as far as I am aware.

 

She does fall into the income tax bracket of taxpayers living in Thailand, although she is not a Thai citizen. If the Thai RD wants to enforce the law, it should be across the board. And if the law is not appropriate, (thresholds etc), it should be amended by legislation.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, samtam said:

My maid hardly falls into the mafioso, triad or criminal class, as far as I am aware.

 

She does fall into the income tax bracket of taxpayers living in Thailand, although she is not a Thai citizen. If the Thai RD wants to enforce the law, it should be across the board. And if the law is not appropriate, (thresholds etc), it should be amended by legislation.

You should be certain to write and tell them that it should be so.

[samtam]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You should be certain to write and tell them that it should be so.

Well my name is not Deloitte, Ernst, Young, Price, Waterhouse, Peat or Marwick, but I expect they are making those very same remonstrations, and my comment is simply to support their effort.

[stat]

12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

The very point that the doom-mongers cannot read or understand.

Many people no longer have a "home country" in a DTA sense as they are living full time in Thailand and do not have an abode abroad (with the exceptiosn of the US guys).

[redwood1]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Are they cutting about without passports and Stateless ?
 

Pretty sure you are a Citizen of the Country that issues your passport and you will be covered under that Countries DTA with Thailand.

 

Get a life instead of posting crap on a daily basis.
 

 

Well I like stats posts.........

 

I bet there are 10s of thousands of older expats who would just about be living under a bridge if forced to go back to their home country due to the cost of living and having no family.....

A passport is only paper.......And their home is Thailand, except for the passport.......

 

But considering their money was made in their home country they should be covered by DTAs...

[moogradod]

19 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Are they cutting about without passports and Stateless ?
 

Pretty sure you are a Citizen of the Country that issues your passport and you will be covered under that Countries DTA with Thailand.

 

Get a life instead of posting crap on a daily basis.
 

 

Better not to be too quick with your wrong assumptions. I am  - for example - not stateless but the country from where I get my passport does not pay me any money. I get the money from another country. Both countries have DTAs with Thailand but I do not pay any tax in neither of them because I do not have any homeadress in either of them. Not sure if any DTA would be applicable to me and if yes, then it might be the one from where I get the dosh and not the one from where I have a passport. Maybe.

Edited October 16, 2023 by moogradod

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, moogradod said:

Not sure if any DTA would be applicable to me

 

5 minutes ago, moogradod said:

but I do not pay any tax in neither of them

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But a DTA will not cover as you are not paying tax in another Country.

 

This is exactly what is getting closed down and not just in Thailand.

[stat]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Are they cutting about without passports and Stateless ?
 

Pretty sure you are a Citizen of the Country that issues your passport and you will be covered under that Countries DTA with Thailand.

 

Get a life instead of posting crap on a daily basis.
 

 

Your offshore investment income (capital gains for example) is no longer protected under a Dta if you have no residence other then Thailand.

[stat]

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Are they cutting about without passports and Stateless ?
 

 

 

Get a life instead of posting crap on a daily basis.
 

 

Some MINUTES later he posts: "Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But a DTA will not cover as you are not paying tax in another Country. "

 

Simply lost for words with this guy

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, stat said:

Your offshore investment income (capital gains for example) is no longer protected under a Dta if you have no residence other then Thailand.

I'm sure that people in Thailand who the above applies to will take note and act accordingly.

 

It is of no concern to those that it does not apply to.

[moogradod]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But a DTA will not cover as you are not paying tax in another Country.

 

This is exactly what is getting closed down and not just in Thailand.

Relax.. This is not too bad. The complicated part is how I get this all done unhurt and without heart attack. And it is not really a problem if I need to pay tax on what I need.

[stat]

12 minutes ago, moogradod said:

Better not to be too quick with your wrong assumptions. I am  - for example - not stateless but the country from where I get my passport does not pay me any money. I get the money from another country. Both countries have DTAs with Thailand but I do not pay any tax in neither of them because I do not have any homeadress in either of them. Not sure if any DTA would be applicable to me and if yes, then it might be the one from where I get the dosh and not the one from where I have a passport. Maybe.

In case of dividends you should be covered by DTA example you receive income from us shares, then your dividend is covered by DTA betwenn US and Thailand and Thailand SHOULD discount the 15% you already paid on the dividend (assuming they accept your documentation which can be mind boggeling even in the west).

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, moogradod said:

 

Limit or cease to remit into Thailand after the 01 Jan and wait until the muddy waters clear.

[Jai Dee]

Several posts in violation of our Community Standards have been removed. 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

Limit or cease to remit into Thailand after the 01 Jan and wait until the muddy waters clear.

Umm, I'm not going to change anything, I receive 65K a month here in Thailand from two sources and I'm not going to change anything. Bangkok Bank knows that one of those transfers is from US SSc because they had to sign and stamp the form before it was returned to the U and BB insisted on keeping a copy. I'm not sure BB knows the source of the other transfer but its UK State pension related. By my calculation I'm free and clear of Thai tax next year although I may transfer some extra funds before the 1 Jan.

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Umm, I'm not going to change anything, I receive 65K a month here in Thailand from two sources and I'm not going to change anything.

Agreed as both those sources are covered by DTA's

 

I have stopped 1 source of income as I am not convinced it is covered by a DTA ( Private pension ) working on the assumption that it is better to be safe than sorry, and end up double taxed.

 

My Government Pension will continue as normal, directly remitted to Thailand ( Covered by DTA )

 

Other than that, I can see absolutely no reason to be getting excited at this point in time.

 

Still have the 1st 5 months of 2024 to await clarification and decide if a course of action is neccessary.

Edited October 16, 2023 by The Cyclist
Typo

[The Cyclist]

31 minutes ago, stat said:

Some MINUTES later he posts: "Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But a DTA will not cover as you are not paying tax in another Country. "

 

Simply lost for words with this guy

What is the purpose of a DTA ?
 

Is it not to ensure that the same funds are not taxed in 2 different Countries ?
 

Perhaps you could explain why you are lost for words and why income that is not taxed elsewhere would be covered by a DTA ?
 

Whilst you are scrambling about trying to come up with an answer. I'm still awaiting your explanation of how I have misunderstood the UK / Thai DTA, in that my Government pension( taxed in the UK ) is  covered by said DTA and should be exempt from Thai Taxation.

 

[randstr21]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Er, not really.

 

You cannot claim a deduction unless you file a tax return, you can't just say I would be allowed this deduction so there's no tax to pay hence I wont file.

 

Anyone who has assessible income over 60k Baht per year must file.

 

.

I understand better now. Thanks. I hope there will be official statements about assessible income, deduction and etc (on oversea income bring into Thailand) within these 2 months. I will need to plan how much money that I will bring into Thailand in 2024 if I want to stay here for another year

[UKresonant]

On 9/20/2023 at 11:02 AM, Foxx said:

As has been said before, the DTA does not cover personal or state pensions - they are (at least theoretically) taxable in both countries, so yes, they could.

 

Also with the UK tax year being about 13 weeks out of sync with the Thai one, quite possible you will be out  the value of your tax amount for quite a few months. So if you needed a 3 or 4k GPB a a taxation float, they might want to tax that as well! ????

[redwood1]

The tax

 

[topt]

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Agreed as both those sources are covered by DTA's

Wrong - State pension (not govt. pension which is different) is specifically excluded from the UK/Thai DTA. Been mentioned loads of times - please keep up.........

[Felt 35]

5 hours ago, stat said:

Many people no longer have a "home country" in a DTA sense as they are living full time in Thailand and do not have an abode abroad (with the exceptiosn of the US guys).

I have a home country and a DTA but not a address there so please not tell me savings abroad and a small interest on that and never remitted to Thailand (Living expenses is covered by monthly pension) have to be declared here??

Felt

[liddelljohn]

what about money to support my Family in Thailand  which is TAX Paid in EU     how the hell can they demand tax on money to my wife ?????

[stat]

1 hour ago, Felt 35 said:

I have a home country and a DTA but not a address there so please not tell me savings abroad and a small interest on that and never remitted to Thailand (Living expenses is covered by monthly pension) have to be declared here??

Felt

So far it is my understanding that only remitted income to TH will be taxed. However if you have not paid taxes on your interest in the other country then you cannot claim DTA shelter when you transmit.

[jerrymahoney]

8 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

what about money to support my Family in Thailand  which is TAX Paid in EU     how the hell can they demand tax on money to my wife ?????

As a start, Thailand does not have a double-tax agreement with the EU. DTA's are with individual EU countries as per here:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/766.html