27 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Anyone with assessible income of 60k per year or more, is obliged to file a tax return. That's what the law says, that's what the law has always said, the fact that the RD may have turned a blind eye to it in some cases in the past, is not a reliable excuse for not filing. Quite why people thought they didn't need to file is anyone's guess! I suppose it's like drunk driving, the police don't seem to care so it must be OK to do it. And TBH, I don't know how anyone can tell whether the number of expats who filed in the past is tiny, nobody knows whether it's the silent majority who are not AN members or what.

 

Don't be so defensive.Nobody is criticizing those who quite unnecessarily filed Thai tax returns when not expected to do so.The fact that you compare not filing a return in the past as akin to drunk driving suggest you may have lost a sense of perspective.

It seems quite clear that more after people avoiding paying tax and so where a double taxation agreement exists hopefully shouldnt be an issue....

 

TH – Taxation of Foreign-Sourced Income into Thailand - KPMG Global

 

Quote

If the assessable income is subject to tax in the source country, the tax paid in the source country can be credited against the personal income tax liabilities in Thailand per rules prescribed in the applicable double taxation treaties. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Quite why people thought they didn't need to file is anyone's guess!

 

I would hazard a guess that a lot people thought they didn't have to file a Thai tax return because

 

* They did not work or earn money in Thailand.

 

* In Thailand for years but never a tax resident.

 

* Income remitted was already taxed at source.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I knew nothing about the requirements for filing tax returns until this thread.

 

I dont think anyone with there head screwed on the correct way is going to go to the RD and say ' Hey Mr, please advise me how to throw money at you '

 

 

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Don't be so defensive.Nobody is criticizing those who quite unnecessarily filed Thai tax returns when not expected to do so.The fact that you compare not filing a return in the past as akin to drunk driving suggest you may have lost a sense of perspective.

I'm only feeding back to you some of your exact words to me! Plus, I could have picked any law to make the case, I just happened to pick drunk driving. I don't know if causing damage and destruction with a vehicle is on par with tax evasion but they don't seem too unreasonable to compare.

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I can't think of any reason why Immigration would tell visa applicants, they probably didn't even know. Ditto I would guess, US consular officials. BUT, none of that changes the fact that there has always been a requirement, the fact that nobody mentioned it, doesn't make it go away.

You asked WHY? That is why it never occurred to me that I was liable for taxes although I completely agree the more than 60K level requiring a filing was always there.,

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I would hazard a guess that a lot people thought they didn't have to file a Thai tax return because

 

* They did not work or earn money in Thailand.

 

* In Thailand for years but never a tax resident.

 

* Income remitted was already taxed at source.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I knew nothing about the requirements for filing tax returns until this thread.

 

I dont think anyone with there head screwed on the correct way is going to go to the RD and say ' Hey Mr, please advise me how to throw money at you '

 

 

Yet, thousands of foreign expats and retirees have been happy to waltz down the RD every January to reclaim the money they felt they were owed in the form of tax that was with held. Did none of those people every read the tax form or understand tax? Did nobody ever ask them at the RD if they had other income? Doubtful I say, extremely doubtful.

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm only feeding back to you some of your exact words to me! Plus, I could have picked any law to make the case, I just happened to pick drunk driving. I don't know if causing damage and destruction with a vehicle is on par with tax evasion but they don't seem too unreasonable to compare.

Drink driving could suggest potential injury/death to innocents..........so personally I think it is unreasonable.

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yet, thousands of foreign expats and retirees have been happy to waltz down the RD every January to reclaim the money they felt they were owed in the form of tax that was with held. Did none of those people every read the tax form or understand tax? Did nobody ever ask them at the RD if they had other income? Doubtful I say, extremely doubtful.

Definitely a whiff of holier than thou coming through on both quoted texts.......disappointing 

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm only feeding back to you some of your exact words to me! Plus, I could have picked any law to make the case, I just happened to pick drunk driving. I don't know if causing damage and destruction with a vehicle is on par with tax evasion but they don't seem too unreasonable to compare.

 

If I may say so you're just digging yourself in deeper.Also you don't seem to understand the meaning of tax evasion.If you want to give yourself a pat on the back for voluntarily filing tax returns in the past by all means do so.But it's more productive for forum members to understand real and practical requirements going forward - so let's concentrate on that rather than pointless and irrelevant virtue signalling.

 

Incidentally if you got entangled in the Thai tax net in the past there presumably must have been a reason.Was it to claim tax back on deposits in Thai banks? If so do you understand the meaning of "de minimis"?

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yet, thousands of foreign expats and retirees have been happy to waltz down the RD every January to reclaim the money they felt they were owed in the form of tax that was with held

 

If that it / was the case. And I have no idea if it is true or false.

 

Then surely it would be down to the RD ( Who you would think should know the rules / tax laws ) to educate those 1000's of expats and retirees, who apparently reclaim money every year, by filling at the RD.

3 minutes ago, topt said:

Drink driving could suggest potential injury/death to innocents..........so personally I think it is unreasonable.

Definitely a whiff of holier than thou coming through on both quoted texts.......disappointing 

I simply don't feel inclined to join the herd that is complaining about all of this and and believing what nasty plotting/incompetent people the RD is for not having worked out all the details and told all foreigners by now. 

 

Only one small aspect of tax collection has changed, nothing more, income that is imported one year but earned in a prior year, is now taxable. It is not as if the RD has introduced a whole new series of rules and way of calculating all taxes et al that represent a major upheaval, they haven't. Some of you guys are annoyed at me because you haven't followed the rules and I did and now you're having to scramble. As far as you're concerned, that makes me an idiot for following the rules when I didn't have to, and you were the smart guys because you did the opposite. View it all as you will!

12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If that it / was the case. And I have no idea if it is true or false.

 

Then surely it would be down to the RD ( Who you would think should know the rules / tax laws ) to educate those 1000's of expats and retirees, who apparently reclaim money every year, by filling at the RD.

There's always going to be somebody that can be blamed but in a country where English is not the first language and the native population is so reluctant to speak English to foreigners, it should come as no surprise to anyone that the education wasn't as forthcoming as some might have wished.

 

20 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

If I may say so you're just digging yourself in deeper.Also you don't seem to understand the meaning of tax evasion.If you want to give yourself a pat on the back for voluntarily filing tax returns in the past by all means do so.But it's more productive for forum members to understand real and practical requirements going forward - so let's concentrate on that rather than pointless and irrelevant virtue signalling.

 

Incidentally if you got entangled in the Thai tax net in the past there presumably must have been a reason.Was it to claim tax back on deposits in Thai banks? If so do you understand the meaning of "de minimis"?

I was never tangled in any tax net. At the risk of appearing  holier than thou by some, I reclaimed tax paid on savings interest and reclaimed it at the RD offices. Then, god forbid, I read the forms and asked questions, after which I looked on the web at sites such as the RD, Mazars and Sherings. At that point I better understood what the law said and I chose to abide by it, bad person that I am! Perhaps I did those things because I used to work for a Big 4 accountancy firm so I felt tax in my adopted country might be important!!!

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There's always going to be somebody that can be blamed

 

Can you get rid of the blame game ? I don't happen to be blaming anyone.

 

It was what it was / is for years, and now it might be changing, time will tell.

 

You are the person who repeatedly posts links about how few Thais file and pay tax. Why would any sane expat or retiree ( Unless they were working and earning money in Thailand, or claiming a refund on withholding taxes  ) file a Thai tax return, when Thailand cannot sort itself out with its own people ?

 

Nothing would be changing, if Thailand didn't join CRS.

 

This is not Thailands doing, this is OECD led through joining the CRS.

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I reclaimed tax paid on savings interest and reclaimed it at the RD offices

 

You must have had astonishingly high levels of savings to make the claiming of interest worth the while, since interest rates offered by Thai banks have been abysmal for years.

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Perhaps I did those things because I used to work for a Big 4 accountancy firm

And you didn't learn the meaning of tax evasion?

 

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

that makes me an idiot for following the rules when I didn't have to,

 

You're too hard on yourself.You didn't do anything wrong (apart from the pointless virtue signalling.)

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Can you get rid of the blame game ? I don't happen to be blaming anyone.

 

It was what it was / is for years, and now it might be changing, time will tell.

 

You are the person who repeatedly posts links about how few Thais file and pay tax. Why would any sane expat or retiree ( Unless they were working and earning money in Thailand, or claiming a refund on withholding taxes  ) file a Thai tax return, when Thailand cannot sort itself out with its own people ?

 

Nothing would be changing, if Thailand didn't join CRS.

 

This is not Thailands doing, this is OECD led through joining the CRS.

I'm not going to debate this matter with you cyclist because you are plain and simple argumentative on almost every topic you engage in. Posting economic stats about percentage of tax payers in Thailand has zilch to to do with this discussion. Likewise, me filing a COMPLETE tax return because I had to under law, in order to obtain a refund of tax with held, was my decision that you have no place to question. And if you wish to blame the OECD and CRS for all of this, well, you did say to drop the blame game!

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I was never tangled in any tax net. At the risk of appearing  holier than thou by some, I reclaimed tax paid on savings interest and reclaimed it at the RD offices. Then, god forbid, I read the forms and asked questions, after which I looked on the web at sites such as the RD, Mazars and Sherings. At that point I better understood what the law said and I chose to abide by it, bad person that I am! Perhaps I did those things because I used to work for a Big 4 accountancy firm so I felt tax in my adopted country might be important!!!

522 post in 197 pages = 3 post per page, and I still haven't seen anything of relevance from you. 

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I simply don't feel inclined to join the herd that is complaining about all of this and and believing what nasty plotting/incompetent people the RD is for not having worked out all the details and told all foreigners by now. 

 

Only one small aspect of tax collection has changed, nothing more, income that is imported one year but earned in a prior year, is now taxable. It is not as if the RD has introduced a whole new series of rules and way of calculating all taxes et al that represent a major upheaval, they haven't. Some of you guys are annoyed at me because you haven't followed the rules and I did and now you're having to scramble. As far as you're concerned, that makes me an idiot for following the rules when I didn't have to, and you were the smart guys because you did the opposite. View it all as you will!

Not disagreeing with anything you say here except the "you guys" which since you have replied to me includes me.

Please show me where I have suggested you are an "idiot"?

 

I thought my post was clear in that I was criticising firstly a comparison you used and secondly the way you came across.........Apologies if that didn't come across clear enough but since @jayboy has been essentially signalling the same I am surprised. 

6 minutes ago, jayboy said:

And you didn't learn the meaning of tax evasion?

 

Cough Cough. Tax evasion is illegal 

 

Tax avoidance is a whole different ball game.

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Cough Cough. Tax evasion is illegal 

 

Tax avoidance is a whole different ball game.

Yes, well, when you complete just one part of the tax return to refund tax with held and then purposely mit to declare other income, that's tax evasion and also a fraudulent tax return. 

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not going to debate this matter with you cyclist because you are plain and simple argumentative on almost every topic you engage in. Posting economic stats about percentage of tax payers in Thailand has zilch to to do with this discussion. Likewise, me filing a COMPLETE tax return because I had to under law, in order to obtain a refund of tax with held, was my decision that you have no place to question. And if you wish to blame the OECD and CRS for all of this, well, you did say to drop the blame game!

 

Mike start taking your meds. The above is one of the biggest loads of tosh I have seen you post on this thread.

 

1. I am not questioning your decision to file a tax return. I couldn't care less what you do, or anyone else for that matter.

 

2. I am not blaming the CRS or the OECD. I am stating that  nothing would be changing from the 01 Jan 2024  if it was not for Thailand joining the CRS, which is OECD led.

 

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Posting economic stats about percentage of tax payers in Thailand has zilch to to do with this discussion.

 

How odd

 

I thought the whole thread was about paying tax in Thailand. Whether that be locals, expats, or both involved in tax avoidance.

13 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

You must have had astonishingly high levels of savings to make the claiming of interest worth the while, since interest rates offered by Thai banks have been abysmal for years.

 

I've lived here for over 20 years, at one point I had over 15 mill on time deposits so yes, the tax refund was worth reclaiming.

 

13 minutes ago, jayboy said:

And you didn't learn the meaning of tax evasion?

 

As I pointed out to cyclist, yes, I understand that very well, sadly, you appear not to.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, well, when you complete just one part of the tax return to refund tax with held and then purposely mit to declare other income, that's tax evasion and also a fraudulent tax return. 

 

Thought you worked for 1 of the big 4 ?
 

The above would not be tax evasion if tax had already been paid at source.

Ok look, some of you guys must be bored or lonely and I'm sorry for that but this exchange is going nowhere and serves zero useful purpose, now we've got poster's joining in just to attack when they don't even understand the basics of what's being discussed!

 

So, have at it, but without me.

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Thought you worked for 1 of the big 4 ?
 

The above would not be tax evasion if tax had already been paid at source.

"if".....back onto my ignore list cyclist, save your energy, you're just far too argumentative on things that are not useful of constructive.

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

"if".....back onto my ignore list cyclist, save your energy, you're just far too argumentative on things that are not useful of constructive.

 

So it wouldn't be tax evasion then. Thanks for clearing that up.

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

So it wouldn't be tax evasion then. Thanks for clearing that up.

Cyclist, if you can't figure out whether giving incomplete information on a tax return and not declaring overseas transfers that represent assessable income is tax evasion, you shouldn't be out in the big wide world alone.

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Cyclist, if you can't figure out whether giving incomplete information on a tax return and not declaring overseas transfers that represent assessable income is tax evasion, you shouldn't be out in the big wide world alone.

 

If you are paying the appropriate tax on income - It can never be classed as tax evasion.

 

Is that why the Big 4 keep getting skelped with massive fines. They dont know the difference between ' Avoidance ' and ' Evasion '

 

That comes under those pesky basics you keep talking about.

On 1/1/2024 at 2:50 PM, stat said:

There will be no withholding tax deducted in the coming months as a change like this will take years to implement on bank IT Level, not to mention Thai RD would need to confirm that Joe Sixpack is now a thai tax resident at excat the moment he has spend 180 days in Thailand.

 

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Anyone with assessible income of 60k per year or more, is obliged to file a tax return. That's what the law says, that's what the law has always said, the fact that the RD may have turned a blind eye to it in some cases in the past, is not a reliable excuse for not filing.

 

Under the recently expired rule, income remitted in a later year than the year earned -- was not assessable income, at least for taxation purposes. In my case, my Wise transfers came from a savings account, many years old, containing tons of earnings from previous years. As far as I was concerned, I was compliant with Thai law, in that remitted earnings were from (or at least could shown to be) from earlier times. Thus, no assessable income for tax purposes, no need to file a tax return.

 

For those with direct deposits into Thailand, or who didn't have a checking/savings account several years old, from which to derive their wires into Thailand -- you might not pass the integrity test. However, Thai RD was smart enough to know that they didn't have the resources to ferret out such folks.

3 hours ago, jayboy said:

In practice the vast majority of expatriate residents not employed in Thailand did not file returns with the RD. The RD turned a blind eye to this or at least did not take action. Quite why the tiny number of expat residents with no Thai income felt the urge to file returns is anyone's guess.

 

Even before September 2023 and the current debacle, the best Thai tax experts advised that even the ubiquitous interpretation of a previous year's offshore income being tax-free has no actual and clear base in law. That may not have been something widely discussed, but HNWIs were advised that they need to be careful with their remittances and filings.

 

Check out this quote: "In my view the new interpretation is consistent with what the law has always said," said Jonathan Stuart-Smith, a tax partner at Mazars of Thailand, a tax consultancy. "It’s just that Thailand’s always had a lucky break, and there’s been this narrow interpretation on the table for a long time."

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/international/asean/thailands-tweak-tax-regulation-foreign-income-sparks-confusion-worries

 

Being a tax resident of Thailand has been, and can still be, quite advantageous thanks to many characteristics of Thai tax laws. People with considerable offshore income might end up with a <1% global tax rate even in 2024 if most earnings are kept offshore and not remitted. However, taking advantage of Thai hospitality by being a tax resident necessitates that all taxes are being filed correctly and everything is above board.