Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

You put a big effort into this post.....

 

But if these numbers are correct..

 

Taxable Income per year(Baht) Tax rate

0 – 150,000 Exempt

150,000 – 300,000 5%

300,000 – 500,000 10%

500,000 – 750,000 15%

750,000 – 1,000,000 20%

1,000,000 – 2,000,000 25%

2,000,000 – 4,000,000 30%

Over 4,000,000 35%

 

This is a stinking joke.....

 

Just renting a very modest 17,000 baht a month condo would already put you at 204,000 baht and thats before you spend so much as one dollar on any thing else in a entire year......God forbid if you needed to eat or use electricity or visit a hospital etc...

 

Even a Thai worker only making 500 baht a day.......500 X 365= 182,500 baht a year...

 

So is every Thai and Farang  not homeless and living on the beach going to be paying this tax?

 

Yea right when pigs fly...

 

If they want this tax to really work they must give out at least a 2-3 million baht exemption every year to everybody.....So they will only be catching big fish...

It will all depend on your age and your source of income and country of origin. In a worst case scenario, yes, it could be expensive. But an over 65 year old can expect to see between 500k and 600k in deductions each year plus, if their income is largely from the US from SSC, $40k of that is tax free. So it is possible, given the right combination, for much of that income to be free of tax.

[jerrymahoney]

So the big question as I see it is --

 

When will anyone, for any reason, be told by someone in a Thai position of authority:

 

You need to file a personal income tax form/return, but you didn't.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

So the big question as I see it is --

 

When will anyone, for any reason, be told by someone in a Thai position of authority:

 

You need to file a personal income tax form/return, but you didn't.

The onus is on the individual to determine if they need to file a tax return. If they do not and they should have, the next thing they can logically expect is a query from the RD asking why not. Exactly why the RD might do that or how they would know is not immediately clear but between the banks and Immigration, all the components and data is there, all they have to do is make all the connections, just as most Western governments have.

[jerrymahoney]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The onus is on the individual to determine if they need to file a tax return. If they do not and they should have, the next thing they can logically expect is a query from the RD asking why not. Exactly why the RD might do that or how they would know is not immediately clear but between the banks and Immigration, all the components and data is there, all they have to do is make all the connections, just as most Western governments have.

And as I have said, onus on the individual or not, there will likely be expats that, if they think they can get away with not filing, and do things like only using ATM withdrawals and other under-the-radar approaches, they will.

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The onus is on the individual to determine if they need to file a tax return. If they do not and they should have, the next thing they can logically expect is a query from the RD asking why not. Exactly why the RD might do that or how they would know is not immediately clear but between the banks and Immigration, all the components and data is there, all they have to do is make all the connections, just as most Western governments have.

In the absence of clear guidelines how is one to follow such guidelines? 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

And as I have said, onus on the individual or not, there will likely be expats that, if they think they can get away with not filing, and do things like only using ATM withdrawals and other under-the-radar approaches, they will.

Of course, and if/when they get caught out, they only have themselves to blame. Free stuff almost never lasts for ever.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

In the absence of clear guidelines how is one to follow such guidelines? 

 

 

Get over it and make it work, you're an adult, if you can't, ask the RD or employ a tax consultant.

[TheAppletons]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Free stuff almost never lasts for ever.

 

  <Herpes enters the chat>

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

And as I have said, onus on the individual or not, there will likely be expats that, if they think they can get away with not filing, and do things like only using ATM withdrawals and other under-the-radar approaches, they will.

The problem is that that is how do you do extension to stay.

 

[jerrymahoney]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Of course, and if/when they get caught out, they only have themselves to blame. Free stuff almost never lasts for ever.

Well at least as of right now, all the inter-connecting links that you list as to how someone might be found out, don't exist.

 

I have mentioned before  that one reason I do not use an agent for extension is the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. I know that really doesn't apply to me, but I choose to follow it in spirit anyways. Especially since my first real interaction with a foreign government was with the Chinese Agricultural Ministry.

 

https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-fraud/foreign-corrupt-practices-act

[jerrymahoney]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

The problem is that that is how do you do extension to stay.

 

Bribe.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Well at least as of right now, all the inter-connecting links that you list as to how someone might be found out, don't exist.

 

I have mentioned before  that one reason I do not use an agent for extension is the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. I know that really doesn't apply to me, but I choose to follow it in spirit anyways. Especially since my first real interaction with a foreign government was with the Chinese Agricultural Ministry.

 

https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-fraud/foreign-corrupt-practices-act

Neither you nor I don't know if those links exist or not! What we do know is that they are not fully operationalized yet.

[jerrymahoney]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Neither you nor I don't know if those links exist or not! What we do know is that they are not fully operationalized yet.

Not my problem. Immigration already has all my bank info and remittances and has for 4 years now. 

[Rimmer]

post and replies discussing an illegal activity have been removedf

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  <Herpes enters the chat>

Excellent, gets my vote for post of the day.

[Mike Lister]

Most readers will be able to figure this out for themselves so the following is for those posters who have been involved in this thread extensively but still can't seem to work out the basics and keep bleating about the same issue:

 

 

The RD tax return requires taxpayers to report assessable income, the tax rules even list some types of income that are not assessable to help in this monumental feat. In addition, some types of income, from some locations, for some nationalities, are also known to be not assessable.

 

If a taxpayer is certain that some of their income is not assessable, they may not want to declare it on their Thai tax return.  Alternatively they may wish to ask the RD or employ specialist tax advisor's. It should go without saying that some taxpayers may try to suggest that some of their income is not assessable when really they don’t know for sure, or, they know that it is and say it that it isn’t, a sort of, chancing your arm and hoping you wont get found out. In that situation, the RD will not look favorably on such people and penalties are likely.

[Pib]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

 

22. The Thai tax system contains a series of Allowances, Deductions and Exemptions that will help you reduce your tax bill and they are very generous. It is easily possible for the average expat foreign retiree to reduce their taxable income by 500,000 baht or more each year. For example, a retiree aged 65 years of age, married and living here full  time, supporting a Thai wife who has no income and doesn’t file tax return, is allowed the following:

 

a. Personal Allowance for self - 60,000

b. Personal Allowance for wife - 60,000

c. Over age 65 years exemption - 190,000

d. 50% of pension income received, up to 100k - 100,000

e. In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax

 

 

 

On a joint" return where both over age 65 people have assessable income to declare do both get the 190K exemption resulting in 2 times 190K for 380K total OR is the 190K exemption just allowed once on the return whether it's for a single or joint return?   

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Pib said:

 

On a "loint" return where both over age 65 people have assessable income to declare do both get the 190K exemption resulting in 2 times 190K for 380K total OR is the 190K exemption just allowed once on the return whether it's for a single or joint return?   

Loint return were phased out in 1992. :)

 

An excellent question that hasn't come up before, the answer is, I don't know! My strongest suspicion is that the 190k exemption can only be claimed once per tax return and that if both people want to claim it, they must file single returns. I will do some checking and try to come back to you with a definitive answer.

 

Thanks for raising a useful query.

 

 

[freeworld]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

The problem is that that is how do you do extension to stay.

 

For extension of stay ie immigration, just follow the rules, deposit in a bank or a monthly income or letter from embassy.

 

Tax is dealt with by the tax office.

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, freeworld said:

For extension of stay ie immigration, just follow the rules, deposit in a bank or a monthly income or letter from embassy.

 

Tax is dealt with by the tax office.

My response was to the proposition of using an ATM to transfer money thus avoiding taxes. Then the question is how do you do an extension based on income if you do not show any income?  

[Pib]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Loint return were phased out in 1992. :)

 

An excellent question that hasn't come up before, the answer is, I don't know! My strongest suspicion is that the 190k exemption can only be claimed once per tax return and that if both people want to claim it, they must file single returns. I will do some checking and try to come back to you with a definitive answer.

 

Thanks for raising a useful query.

 

 

Well, what I meant by a joint return is where both you and spouse are submitting one tax return where both of you declare your income.   Yesterday I tried to walk myself thru completing a joint return and that 190K exemption seemed to be total for a return vs 190K for each person, but I was completely unsure when the dust settled...figured I'd let is lay a day or two and look at it again.

 

 

 

 

[freeworld]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

My response was to the proposition of using an ATM to transfer money thus avoiding taxes. Then the question is how do you do an extension based on income if you do not show any income?  

Seems like avoiding or evading something.

 

Follow the rules, deposit the money in a bank account and show the statement.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Pib said:

Well, what I meant by a joint return is where both you and spouse are submitting one tax return where both of you declare your income.   Yesterday I tried to walk myself thru completing a joint return and that 190K exemption seemed to be total for a return vs 190K for each person, but I was completely unsure when the dust settled...figured I'd let is lay a day or two and look at it again.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I understood that, I was making light of your typo.

 

I haven't tried the scenario you describe so you are the pioneer in this matter. If you can get 2 x 190k on a joint return and that facility exists, great.

[Pib]

One more question, for a retired person whose total income now comes from pensions, savings, investments, etc., with no income from work/employment do they submit a Form 90 or 91.   In the example given a few posts up an example Form 91 is being used but that seems to conflict with below webpage.  And to top it off both the form 90 and 91 use the Pension word on it causing more confusion in my pea brain.

 

 

https://www.rsm.global/thailand/insights/rsm-focus/filing-pnd90-and-pnd91#:~:text=PND 90 and PND 91,using the PND 91 Form.

Quote

 

How do I know which one to submit?

Individuals who have worked or are working in Thailand are required to file a personal income tax return (either of PND.90 or PND.91).  How does the taxpayer know which one to submit or which return is required to be filed?  We have summarized the details to clarify this for you to easily understand the requirements as follows: ........

 

PND.90 return is the personal income tax return to report the assessable income under Section 40(1) to (8)

PND.91 return is the personal income tax return to report the assessable income under Section 40(1) obtained from employment

 

 

Concluding remarks

PND 90 and PND 91 are Forms for filing personal income tax. If the taxpayer has various types of income, they must submit documents using the PND 90 Form. If the taxpayer has 40 (1) income, for example, only one type of salary, they must submit documents using the PND 91 Form.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

12 minutes ago, Pib said:

One more question, for a retired person whose total income now comes from pensions, savings, investments, etc., with no income from work/employment do they submit a Form 90 or 91.   In the example given a few posts up an example Form 91 is being used but that seems to conflict with below webpage.  And to top it off both the form 90 and 91 use the Pension word on it causing more confusion in my pea brain.

 

 

https://www.rsm.global/thailand/insights/rsm-focus/filing-pnd90-and-pnd91#:~:text=PND 90 and PND 91,using the PND 91 Form.

 

 

 

 

 

Disregard above question....I found another webpage (see below) that cleared things up for me.....I would use a Form 91 like in Mike Lister's example.

 

https://www.wonderfulpackage.com/article/v/1646/

 

Quote

 

Who needs to file PND.90 and PND.91?

- For those who have to file a PND.90 form, they are as follows.

1. Those who are single and have income exceeding 60,000 baht.
2. Those who are husband and wife and have income together exceeding 120,000 baht.
3. Heritage property that has not been divided has income exceeding 60,000 baht.
4. Non-juristic partnership have income exceeding 60,000 baht.
5. Non-corporate person have income exceeding 60,000 baht.
6. Community enterprises, only if it is an ordinary partnership or a person who is not a juristic person have income exceeding 1,800,000 baht or 60,000 baht but not more than 1,800,000 baht will be exempt from income tax.

- For those who have to file a PND.91 form, they are as follows.

1. Those who are single and have income exceeding 120,000 baht.
2. Those who are husband and wife and have income together exceeding 220,000 baht.

That income includes income from employment such as salary, wages, allowance, bonus, pension, house rental, and other income, income from the employer to the tenant without pay the rent fee, income derived from the employer pays the debt that the employee is obliged to pay, and asset or any benefits gained from employment, money that the employer pays once due to leaving work, including compensation under the labor law for who have a period of work of less than 5 years.

Remarks

• In the case of leaving the job and the employer pays a one-time payment including compensation for those who have a working period of 5 years or more can be combined with taxes and other income.
• In the case of leaving the job and the employer pays a one-time payment and chooses not to combine the income with taxes and other income, must also show the item in the attachment and submit it together with the form PND.91.

Thank you for the information from;
The Revenue Department

 

 

[The Cyclist]

OK

 

I will try again

 

52 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The RD tax return requires taxpayers to report assessable income, 

 

Required to report, by filing a tax return, any assessable income.

 

56 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

In addition, some types of income, from some locations, for some nationalities, are also known to be not assessable.

 

Both parts  above are clear and blindingly obvious.

 

Below is what is not blindingly obvious.

 

If you only remit income that is 20,000% locked up in a DTA and is considered to be non assessable, and is only taxable in the UK, US, Aus or wherever.

 

Does that person need to file a Thai tax return ?

 

 

 

[sirineou]

45 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Seems like avoiding or evading something.

 

Follow the rules, deposit the money in a bank account and show the statement.

 

Brilliant !!

Why didn't I think of that. 

 

[beammeup]

Avoiding is legal, Evading is not. Therefore clarity is needed.

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

OK

 

I will try again

 

 

Required to report, by filing a tax return, any assessable income.

 

 

Both parts  above are clear and blindingly obvious.

 

Below is what is not blindingly obvious.

 

If you only remit income that is 20,000% locked up in a DTA and is considered to be non assessable, and is only taxable in the UK, US, Aus or wherever.

 

Does that person need to file a Thai tax return ?

 

 

 

I check you posts every day or so to see if you have said anything that needs correcting this is because you are on my ignore list for being argumentative and abusive. It should come as surprise to you that I haven't given you a personalized reply to your question. But as it happens, the point you raise now was answered in the .main thread, earlier. I am now outside and will reply to the many many questions others have raised, in a few hours.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I check you posts every day or so to see if you have said anything that needs correcting this is because you are on my ignore list

 

Brilliant Mike, pure genius 

 

You have me on ignore, but you check my posts everyday 

 

Comedy Gold