Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Does a DTA mean that if tax is paid in say , my country UK, I do not have to pay here.?

My example is for money coming into Thailand irrespective of any DTA.

If you import 100 Pounds and you paid 10% UK tax on that money, you will pay additional tax in Thailand, only if your tax band is higher (see note below). You would receive a credit for the 10% UK tax in Thailand, under the DTA. If however the Thai tax was less than 10%, yoo would not pay anything in Thailand.

 

The rate at which you pay tax in Thailand will depend on your total assessible income, minus your deductions/allowances and all these things can vary from year to year.

[KannikaP]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If you import 100 Pounds and you paid 10% UK tax on that money, you will pay additional tax in Thailand, only if your tax band is higher (see note below). You would receive a credit for the 10% UK tax in Thailand, under the DTA. If however the Thai tax was less than 10%, yoo would not pay anything in Thailand.

 

The rate at which you pay tax in Thailand will depend on your total assessible income, minus your deductions/allowances and all these things can vary from year to year.

In UK, the first £12570 is at 0%, NOT tax free. After that it is at 20% up to something like £37k. In Thailand the threshold for 0% is up to Bht 150,000 or about £3350 and then various rates up to 35%.

So if I import Bht 40,000 per month = Bht 480k= £10720, on which I have 'paid' 0% tax according to UK tax law, would I still be required to pay any tax in Thailand?

I read on here that over 65s get a 60k allowance plus and extra 190k at 0%. Is this correct please?

Edited October 12, 2023 by KannikaP

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

In UK, the first £12570 is at 0%, NOT tax free. After that it is at 20% up to something like £37k. In Thailand the threshold for 0% is up to Bht 150,000 or about £3350 and then various rates up to 35%.

So if I import Bht 40,000 per month = Bht 480k= £10720, on which I have 'paid' 0% tax according to UK tax law, would I still be required to pay any tax in Thailand?

I read on here that over 65s get a 60k allowance plus and extra 190k at 0%. Is this correct please?

Yes, over 65 years old gets an allowance of 190k, off the assessible income, it's the first deduction in the tax calculation.

 

The next one is Personal Care Allowance at 60k (and also for spouse if married and she doesn't file). The net of all of that is then applied against the tax tables, the first 150k of which is zero rated/tax free (slightly semantic). Tax is then applied in bands thereafter, according to the tax tables. 

 

In your example: if you import the equivalent of B480k into Thailand, it sounds as though your deductions and allowances might total 400K so you would have to pay tax at 5% on the last 80k, or 4k baht. (Note, your deductions and allowances being, -190, -60k and -150k).  

 

 

[KannikaP]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, over 65 years old gets an allowance of 190k, off the assessible income, it's the first deduction in the tax calculation.

 

The next one is Personal Care Allowance at 60k (and also for spouse if married and she doesn't file). The net of all of that is then applied against the tax tables, the first 150k of which is zero rated/tax free (slightly semantic). Tax is then applied in bands thereafter, according to the tax tables. 

 

In your example: if you import the equivalent of B480k into Thailand, it sounds as though your deductions and allowances might total 400K so you would have to pay tax at 5% on the last 80k, or 4k baht. (Note, your deductions and allowances being, -190, -60k and -150k).  

 

 

Thanks Mike. I hope this is correct. I am going to my local tax office right now to confirm it. If it is so, then I have no worries whatsoever.

[freeworld]

4 hours ago, hondoelsinore said:

Another point of Thailand always longing to make the country attractive for the wealthy, but with the never ending clueless moves like this, they just don't have the capacity to make it happen, and it always falls back to just settling with the sexpats, criminals, and third rate tourists. It seemingly cannot rise above the old R&R spot for Vietnam soldiers full of cheap drink, and cheap woman that it's always been, but now it can also be the spot for the two week millionaires from everywhere. Thailand is always just settling, just like you are settling. Sad actually.

Of course Thailand has the capacity to implement and manage this taxation based on residence. How do you think many other countries are managing to do it?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, KannikaP said:

Thanks Mike. I hope this is correct. I am going to my local tax office right now to confirm it. If it is so, then I have no worries whatsoever.

Don't forget that there's a host of other allowances and deductions that are available, based on your circumstances, even the premiums you pay for health and life insurance.

[The Cyclist]

46 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Does a DTA mean that if tax is paid in say , my country UK, I do not have to pay here.?

My example is for money coming into Thailand irrespective of any DTA.

If you have P60's covering funds coming from the UK into Thailand, I think you will be safe from Thai taxation.

 

I have 2 pensions coming into Thailand and have P60's and Statements of future payments, The P60's show annual amount of income and tax paid. The Statements of future payments show the monthly amount and the tax deducted.

 

State Pension, I have no idea as I cannot claim it yet.

 

Any monies remitted to Thailand that has not been taxed, or you cannot show where it has been taxed, will most likely incur Thai taxation.

 

O&G workers for example, working in tax free places and having their wages paid direct to Thailand.

 

I think many people are panicking and doing Chicken Little impressions over nothing.

Edited October 12, 2023 by The Cyclist
Typo

[freeworld]

14 hours ago, KannikaP said:

I did and that was the conclusion I came to. Am I right or wrong that the 190 is on top of the 150? @Dogmatix seems to agree with me.

No, under 65 it is 150000 exempt.

 

Over 65 it is 190000 exempt

 

On the first band of taxable income.

 

It is not an additional allowance/deduction.

[freeworld]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

If you have P60's covering funds coming from the UK into Thailand, I think you will be safe from Thai taxation.

 

I have 2 pensions coming into Thailand and have P60's and Statements of future payments, The P60's show annual amount of income and tax paid. The Statements of future payments show the monthly amount and the tax deducted.

 

State Pension, I have no idea as I cannot claim it yet.

 

Any monies remitted to Thailand that has not been taxed, or you cannot show where it has been taxed, will most likely incur Thai taxation.

 

O&G workers for example, working in tax free places and having their wages paid direct to Thailand.

 

I think many people are panicking and doing Chicken Little impressions over nothing.

It is still assessable income remitted to Thailand, if it is over 60000 baht so theoretically one would need to submit a tax return and use the dta and/or a tax residence certificate obtained from the home country to offset against taxes to pay in Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, freeworld said:

No, under 65 it is 150000 exempt.

 

Over 65 it is 190000 exempt

 

On the first band of taxable income.

 

It is not an additional allowance/deduction.

That is incorrect and was the subject of debate and evidence in a separate thread, poster @Larry will be able to point you towards it.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, freeworld said:

It is still assessable income remitted to Thailand,

 

That might be true.

 

I believe that at this point in time we do not have clarification on what is " Assessable income "

 

The whole point of having DTA's is to ensure that the same monies are not taxed twice in different Countries.

[freeworld]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

That is incorrect and was the subject of debate and evidence in a separate thread, poster @Larry will be able to point you towards it.

OK thanks, I have not seen that discussion, that was my understanding, I will look more into it.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, freeworld said:

No, under 65 it is 150000 exempt.

 

Over 65 it is 190000 exempt

 

On the first band of taxable income.

 

It is not an additional allowance/deduction.

Here's the link you need read.

 

 

[jaideedave]

32 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

If you have P60's covering funds coming from the UK into Thailand, I think you will be safe from Thai taxation.

 

I have 2 pensions coming into Thailand and have P60's and Statements of future payments, The P60's show annual amount of income and tax paid. The Statements of future payments show the monthly amount and the tax deducted.

 

State Pension, I have no idea as I cannot claim it yet.

 

Any monies remitted to Thailand that has not been taxed, or you cannot show where it has been taxed, will most likely incur Thai taxation.

 

O&G workers for example, working in tax free places and having their wages paid direct to Thailand.

 

I think many people are panicking and doing Chicken Little impressions over nothing.

"O&G workers for example, working in tax free places and having their wages paid direct to Thailand"

I was one of those a few years back. Income from the ME was never taxed, the good old days.

I'm happy I've been retired for several years and out of the loop. Fun while it lasted though.

[Pib]

 

 

Below is the beginning news article from this mega thread talking the new RD directive where I bolded one phrase of it. Go take a quick read below.

 

The article basically says if you are a Thailand tax resident and have foreign income assessable (taxable) by Thailand lets say like income from a private retirement acct, investment, private pension, etc., which is "not" shielded by a DTA do I have the correct understanding from the article such assessable (taxable) income would only be Thailand taxable "when/if" you remitted that income to Thailand; thereby meaning if you never remitted that specific income...say just left it in your home country  (and could prove it) then that specific income stream would remain untaxable by Thailand?   

 

Like say a person expended all that specific income on bills, stuff bought in the home country like upkeep of home/family member in the home country....or just flatout left it setting in a home country acct untouched....maybe saving it to be inherited/given to someone upon your death.....or just untouched as you might plan to repatriate to the home country in the future.   

 

Or is the article wrong/making an assumption and Thailand expects to tax that specific Thailand assessable (taxable) income--assuming you declare it to them--whether you remit it to Thailand or not?

 

Seems the more I read crossfeed/articles/posts on this subject the more I get wrapped around the axle on "remittance" part of the subject.   Thanks.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Pib

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, over 65 years old gets an allowance of 190k, off the assessible income, it's the first deduction in the tax calculation.

 

If the 190K "exemption" has the same impact on the calculation of the taxable income (being deducted before or after leads to the same result, doesn't it?) then it behaves like an allowance.

So why TRD did not simply put it on the allowance list, even adding an extra form to fill?

I'm wondering.

 

Something doesn't add up here... or is it again a Thai logic mystery that we Farangs cannot comprehend?  

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Yumthai

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

 

Below is the beginning news article from this mega thread talking the new RD directive where I bolded one phrase of it. Go take a quick read below.

 

The article basically says if you are a Thailand tax resident and have foreign income assessable (taxable) by Thailand lets say like income from a private retirement acct, investment, private pension, etc., which is "not" shielded by a DTA do I have the correct understanding from the article such assessable (taxable) income would only be Thailand taxable "when/if" you remitted that income to Thailand; thereby meaning if you never remitted that specific income...say just left it in your home country  (and could prove it) then that specific income stream would remain untaxable by Thailand?   

 

Like say a person expended all that specific income on bills, stuff bought in the home country like upkeep of home/family member in the home country....or just flatout left it setting in a home country acct untouched....maybe saving it to be inherited/given to someone upon your death.....or just untouched as you might plan to repatriate to the home country in the future.   

 

Or is the article wrong/making an assumption and Thailand expects to tax that specific Thailand assessable (taxable) income--assuming you declare it to them--whether you remit it to Thailand or not?

 

Seems the more I read crossfeed/articles/posts on this subject the more I get wrapped around the axle on "remittance" part of the subject.   Thanks.

 

 

As said many times PIB, on 15 September 2023, the Director General confirmed via a myriad of reports reports and in RD Instruction Por 161/2566, that the foreign source assessable income law, "doesn't tax income in the year it arises", instead, liability arises "upon bringing assessible income into Thailand".

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

If the 190K "exemption" has the same impact on the calculation of the taxable income (being deducted before or after leads to the same result, isn't it?) then it behaves like an allowance.

So why TRD did not simply put it on the allowance list, even adding an extra form to fill?

I'm wondering.

 

Something doesn't add up here... or is it again a Thai logic mystery that we Farangs cannot comprehend?  

 

Who knows and does it really matter? There apparently was a reason why but I don't know or care what it is was, as long as it's there. I suspect it is probably because it was an after thought or temporary in nature....dunno.

[freeworld]

33 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Here's the link you need read.

 

 

Thanks.

[Pib]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

As said many times PIB, on 15 September 2023, the Director General confirmed via a myriad of reports reports and in RD Instruction Por 161/2566, that the foreign source assessable income law, "doesn't tax income in the year it arises", instead, liability arises "upon bringing assessible income into Thailand".

Thanks. 

 

So, to ensure I'm clear on the remittance part, say income from a private pension not shielded by a DTA was paid-out in the upcoming 2024 year but it was paid into a home country bank account where you just accumulate the pension payouts for some future need then that money would not be taxable by Thailand until you possibly remitted some of it to Thailand? 

 

And say you didn't remit any say till 2026 then it would only be taxable by Thailand in the tax year of 2026 (which you file in early 2027)?

 

Thanks again.

 

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Pib said:

Thanks. 

 

So, to ensure I'm clear on the remittance part, say income from a private pension not shielded by a DTA was paid-out in the upcoming 2024 year but it was paid into a home country bank account where you just accumulate the pension payouts for some future need then that money would not be taxable by Thailand until you possibly remitted some of it to Thailand? 

 

And say you didn't remit any say till 2026 then it would only be taxable by Thailand in the tax year of 2026 (which you file in early 2027)?

 

Thanks again.

 

We've been there and done this together in  a different thread PIB, I'm sorry but I'm not going through it again with you.

[jerrymahoney]

So in the Thai Examiner article linked in the OP, it contains this Thai image as below. Does the Thai guideline (?) actually say as in the OP: 

 

Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand.

 

[Pib]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

We've been there and done this together in  a different thread PIB, I'm sorry but I'm not going through it again with you.

Sorry...which thread/post?  Thanks.

[QuantumQuandry]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

In Western countries this move on taxation would have been subject to two years of review and study by HMRC, before it was even announced

...and still come out looking like someone scribbled it on a napkin, at the bar, 8 pints in.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

Sorry...which thread/post?  Thanks.

 

[The Cyclist]

33 minutes ago, jaideedave said:

"O&G workers for example, working in tax free places and having their wages paid direct to Thailand"

I was one of those a few years back. Income from the ME was never taxed, the good old days.

I'm happy I've been retired for several years and out of the loop. Fun while it lasted though.

Me too.

 

Wouldn't want to try it after 01 Jan.

[Pib]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

 

OK...thanks...forgot about that one...and as more people continued to express different opinions in this mega thread and other hreads I became somewhat unsure/wrapped around the axle again on the remittance part again.  

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

OK...thanks...forgot about that one...and as more people continued to express different opinions in this mega thread and other hreads I became somewhat unsure/wrapped around the axle again on the remittance part again.  

You worry too much, you're stressing, chill, it'll be OK

[Pib]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

You worry too much, you're stressing, chill, it'll be OK

Yea...maybe so.  Fortunately as a U.S. citizen it appears I'm going to be shielded pretty well from Thai assessable (taxable) income due to the Thai-US DTA and my LTR Visa since the bulk of my income is U.S. govt pensions/social security.  But me and my dual US-Thai citizen wife whose social security benefits are also shield by the DTA may end-up having some Thai assessable income on our  U.S. private IRAs (the LTR may shield my IRA income)...but if the IRAs do end up being Thailand taxable we will be able to get a full, offsetting foreign tax credit on our joint U.S. tax return...end result no additional overall tax paid (I hope). 

 

But time will tell...interesting tax times ahead.  Thanks again.

 

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

So in the Thai Examiner article linked in the OP, it contains this Thai image as below. Does the Thai guideline (?) actually say as in the OP: 

 

Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand.

 

Nope.  There is no mention of exemptions under DTAs in the order. It just tells RD officers to tax the b'Jezus out of each and every foreign remittance.  Here is a translation of the order

 

Revenue Department Order

No. P.161/2023

 

Subject: Payment of income tax according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code.

It is intended for revenue officials to consider this as a practical guideline for inspecting and giving advice to those residing in Thailand who have assessable income according to Section 40 of the Revenue Code in the past tax year Due to work duties or business conducted abroad or because of assets located abroad according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code. The Revenue Department has ordered the following:

 

Clause 1: Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph three, of the Revenue Code who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because the property is in foreign countries according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and brought the assessable income into Thailand in any tax year.  That person has a duty to include that assessable income in the calculation to pay income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought into Thailand

 

Clause 2: All rules, regulations, orders, letters of response to consultations or any practice that is contrary to or inconsistent with this order shall be cancelled.

 

Clause 3: This order shall come into force for assessable income imported into Thailand from the date 1 January 2024 onwards

Ordered on 15 September 2023

 

  Lawan Saengsanit

 

(Mr. Lawan Saengsanit)

Director General of the Revenue Department

Edited October 12, 2023 by Dogmatix