Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[stat]

3 hours ago, Lorry said:

I meant a solution for the RD.

They certainly don't want to apply DTAs for hundreds of thousands of little pensioners. 

Too much work 

They dont need to, they could just tax all your remittances. But "up to you" Somchai will say if you can come up with all the paperwork that Somchai needs????

 

BTW in Germany there is also an easy way for a tax declaration: If you do not provide sufficient material for a tax declaration or none at all the taxman will make an estimation and you can guess in which direction the estimate will go. Same COULD happen in Thailand.

[stat]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Jesus H....! You've never filed a tax return, never spent time with RD staff yet you've labelled them as worse than the Immi staff....are you even in Thailand?

 

It has always been the case in my experience, and in the experience of everyone else that I have spoken to about it, that RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue! You should try visiting one of their offices, the next time you visit Thailand.

Thanks for the info on Thailand. Not the case in other countries but maybe Thailand is different. Do they have people who speak English? In Germany sometimes they even refuse to read an english account statement and the english level here is usually pretty high.

[stat]

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Wow

 

If I want important information, it wont come from anonymous internet pixels

 

Adios Amigo.

Making a lot of friends here in 14 posts huh?

[TravelerEastWest]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

There is another thread started today about changed procedures for the TM30s in the Pattaya Immigration Office.  May I suggest that some posters here need to go read that thread, and some of the others on the many difficulties Expats have regarding dealing with the Thai Imigration.  My point being - if anyone thinks dealing with the Thai Tax Office will be any better than the Thai Immigration, IMO you are very very mistaken. Knowing as much as possible how it works, and what is the correct way to do something (currently), and what documents are required, is extremely important when dealing with any Thai bureaucracy. Unlike Immigration, the Thai RD have zero obligation to 'teach or advise' Expats (or anyone) how to complete an annual tax return.

Grumpy is 100% correct. 

 

In general his above comments are correct and apply to many revenue departments including in America.

 

To trust Revenue Deparyment officials as being kind and on your side is not the best policy I say this from years of experience working in the tax world in America and many years of filing personal and corporate taxes in Thailand. There is always the exception if for example the local official is your brother-in-law?

[stat]

2 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Everything is still unclear to me.
I have absolutely no desire to additionally torture myself with any Thai tax authorities.
The annual paperwar with the immigration is already enough for me. Since many years I have been able to transfer a total of 1-3 million Thai Baht to Thailand per year to my Thai bank account without any problems.

 

My money is already fully taxed in my home country from rental income, stock dividends and real estate sales. The money i transfered to Thailand was always used to support my Thai family and extended Thai relatives, some construction projects to give my relatives work, health insurance, car financing, school fees for my Thai nephews, etc.
This will no longer happen in 2024.

 

I will transfer a large sum to my Thailand bank account for the last time in 2023 and then it will be over. Planned investments (buying farmland for my Thai family, building a Thai stock portfolio for my thai children, buying another condominium in Thailand) are also being put on hold completely.

 

It would also annoy me if I had to hire any dubious Thai tax advisors.
The only alternative strategies for me so far are: to be in Thailand for less than 180 days per year, or to go on short trips to the Philippines, Singapore, Hong Kong and use Western Union there to transfer up to 20,000 US dollars per trip, which I can then legally take with me back to Thailand.
 

But one thing that will certainly not happen in my case is, that some Thai politicians will enrich themselves with my money through double taxation.

The western union way is no real solution as you are still technically "remitting" money to Thailand. I assume you will have to declare money before landing (in future) and if you dont and get cought you have a big problem.

[TravelerEastWest]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Jesus H....! You've never filed a tax return, never spent time with RD staff yet you've labelled them as worse than the Immi staff....are you even in Thailand?

 

It has always been the case in my experience, and in the experience of everyone else that I have spoken to about it, that RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue! You should try visiting one of their offices, the next time you visit Thailand.

I have spent time with Rd staff and live and work here and have filed many years of Thai tax returns. My experience and that of all Thai business people that I know does not match yours - not sure why... Well I have never waited in a line but no free coffee!

 

You can't trust a RD official to fill out your tax return unless maybe it is the simplest possible one with no tax owed. a number of reasons - they are not on your team and normally they are not well trained.

 

In the tax world there are lots of gray areas - gues which path they will follow?

[TravelerEastWest]

18 minutes ago, stat said:

They dont need to, they could just tax all your remittances. But "up to you" Somchai will say if you can come up with all the paperwork that Somchai needs????

 

BTW in Germany there is also an easy way for a tax declaration: If you do not provide sufficient material for a tax declaration or none at all the taxman will make an estimation and you can guess in which direction the estimate will go. Same COULD happen in Thailand.

100% correct.

 

I saw a district RD manager in the countryside watch a street vendor and estimate sales and taxes based on sales volume - the street vendor was then forced to pay taxes.

 

It is a myth that all street vendors don't pay taxes in Thailand.

[JimGant]

9 hours ago, Lorry said:

9 hours ago, JimGant said:

Invoked where? If my US govt pension is "exclusively" taxed by the US, who cares what year I bring it over to Thailand..... per treaty, it never plays any part in the Thai tax scheme, meaning: no reference to it is required in the filing of Thai taxes.

I don't think any taxman in the world would accept your reasoning. 

"Show me all you've got!"

And then it's THEIR decision what is taxable and what not.

Well, maybe in your country. In the US, income tax is confined to cash flows that are defined as "taxable income." Just like Thailand's "assessable income." Thus, a gift from my aunt Martha, a loan from aunt Agnes, and an inheritance from dear old Mom -- would not have to be declared on my US income tax return. And, also, Thai social security is only taxable by Thailand, per DTA -- thus, again a cash flow omitted from my US tax return. Common sense, actually.

Edited October 13, 2023 by JimGant

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, stat said:

The western union way is no real solution as you are still technically "remitting" money to Thailand. I assume you will have to declare money before landing (in future) and if you dont and get cought you have a big problem.

Everyone has to declare their money at thai customs if they are carrying more than the equivalent of 20,000 US dollars. Those who carry less are currently not required to register. The idea, that customs at the airport asks everyone how much cash they are carrying is absolute improbable

, given the hughes numbers of visitors arriving every day. 

It will hopefully will takes many decades before the dream of every government in the world: - a completely cashless society, and before a complete control over people's cash transactions - becomes a reality.

Edited October 13, 2023 by tomacht8

[Mike Lister]

An interesting article in the UK Telegraph this morning is directly related. It says that HMRC is cracking down on overseas secondary income using web sie data from a number of different sources. This is an extension to a program that was purely UK based initially, now it's being expanded to include global sources. Apparently, the likes of Airbnb already reports detailed information about overseas  lets, by British citizens. The significance here i that it's not just Thailand who is seeking to tax undeclared overseas income, many countries are actively doing the same thing.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/income/holiday-home-owners-banking-hmrc-global-tax-crackdown/

Edited October 13, 2023 by Mike Lister

[jerrymahoney]

7 hours ago, stat said:

They dont need to, they could just tax all your remittances. But "up to you" Somchai will say if you can come up with all the paperwork that Somchai needs

For me, ALL my income qualifies under Article 20 US-Thailand DTA.

 

But even if none of that is exempted (and Thai RD in their FAQ says that at lest some income is to be exempted) as an age 70+ 180+ days/year tax pigeon, I figure with all the available deductions and 150k 0% bracket, my annual taxes would be in the +/- 4000 baht per month range.

 

I wouldn't like it but doable. Thus the morning contribution from the I'm-alright-Jack brigade.

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I have spent time with Rd staff and live and work here and have filed many years of Thai tax returns. My experience and that of all Thai business people that I know does not match yours - not sure why... Well I have never waited in a line but no free coffee!

 

You can't trust a RD official to fill out your tax return unless maybe it is the simplest possible one with no tax owed. a number of reasons - they are not on your team and normally they are not well trained.

 

In the tax world there are lots of gray areas - gues which path they will follow?

There is almost certainly going to be a more intense and in depth scrutiny of business owners tax affairs than there is of foreign retirees, most of whom are on limited, fixed, recurring  income. But this will be true of any country because the potential to manipulate numbers and massage the detail is far greater for a business owner than it is for the pensioner who makes a single transfer each month. And yes, a pensioners tax return is in the simple variety camp, what else would anyone expect.

[Klonko]

11 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

I do not think so.

2 - 4 Million Thai Baht has a Taxrate from 30% !!!

Tax rates after THB 310k deductibles:

THB 1m 3.9%
THB 2m 8.8%

THB 3m 12.5%

THB 4m 15.6%

 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Tax rates after THB 310k deductibles:

THB 1m 3.9%
THB 2m 8.8%

THB 3m 12.5%

THB 4m 15.6%

 

 

Taxable Income per year (Baht) Tax rate

0 – 150,000 Exempt

150,000 – 300,000 5%

300,000 – 500,000 10%

500,000 – 750,000 15%

750,000 – 1,000,000 20%

1,000,000 – 2,000,000 25%

2,000,000 – 4,000,000 30%

Over 4,000,000 35% 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/AEC/AseanTax-Thailand.pdf

[Yumthai]

9 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I saw a district RD manager in the countryside watch a street vendor and estimate sales and taxes based on sales volume - the street vendor was then forced to pay taxes.

It's called a bribe not a tax.

[topt]

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

t has always been the case in my experience, and in the experience of everyone else that I have spoken to about it, that RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue! You should try visiting one of their offices, the next time you visit Thailand.

You have never been to the Jomtien tax office then.......

Admittedly I stopped a couple of years ago but before that was the opposite of your experience all be it I was only claiming refunds on withheld bank interest.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, topt said:

You have never been to the Jomtien tax office then.......

Admittedly I stopped a couple of years ago but before that was the opposite of your experience all be it I was only claiming refunds on withheld bank interest.

No I haven't and I can imagine that districts where there are lots of foreigners and tourist businesses, may well be the exception.

[shackleton]

This Subject is going to go forever as no one is sure who is going to pay tax or not 

Just wait until its clear in law  when it's out in black and white who

it affects ????

[Pib]

2 minutes ago, shackleton said:

This Subject is going to go forever as no one is sure who is going to pay tax or not 

Just wait until its clear in law  when it's out in black and white who

it affects ????

Yeap....this thread will prove a perpetual motion machine is indeed possible. 

 

But never the less some good crossfeed is being provided and allows some people to vent their concern/frustration (me included).

[mania]

This thread & the subject... even if unsure highlights many expats greatest fear.

 

That is the flexible goal posts

Does not matter if the subject is about future taxation or the Health Insurance requirements that has been bubbling for years, or even the possible increase in Visa Ext financial requirements. It is the indecisiveness that makes it tough

 

IMO It is this type of tension that is the worst for any expat ????

 

[jerrymahoney]

While I had heard of such reciprocal international tax agreements, I was never involved either in work or personally.

 

At least for me it was not a waste-of-time to better understand how that might impact any changes, if any, in the Thai resident tax structure that might occur.

Edited October 14, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Negita43]

21 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Even if every expat in Thailand paid 1,000 dollars a year in taxes...It would only be a drop in the bucket as far as paying off 560 billion baht.....I am talking like 150-200 years....

 

Do the math and see for yourself....

Every little helps - apogies to Tesco

[Negita43]

30 minutes ago, shackleton said:

This Subject is going to go forever as no one is sure who is going to pay tax or not 

Just wait until its clear in law  when it's out in black and white who

it affects ????

Agree but my strategy is to move a couple of million (baht) here before 2024 that would keep me going for a couple of years while I wait and see/

[hondoelsinore]

Your going to be fine; and even if your not going to be fine, isn’t it better to just exist thinking that you’re going to be fine. And when it’s not fine, then you can just <deleted> handle it. There no sense to ruin right now, right?

Edited October 14, 2023 by metisdead
Profanity removed.

[retiree]

2 hours ago, Klonko said:

Tax rates after THB 310k deductibles:

THB 1m 3.9%
THB 2m 8.8%

THB 3m 12.5%

THB 4m 15.6%

Thank you, Klonko, for listing the effective tax rates on ordinary income after modest deductions.   

 

I'll assume your calculation is correct.   For reference the 15.6% Thai effective rate on THB 4m (about $110,000 today) is:

-- almost identical to the US self-employment tax of 15.3% (first $147K in 2022, $160K in 2023), 

-- exactly the same as the effective US income tax rate of 15.6%* on $110,000 with standard single deduction (slightly less if self-employed).  

 

Note that if you're a US taxpayer you can:

 -- avoid the US earned income tax (to $120K income) with the FEIE exclusion if you meet the US non-resident test,

 -- get credit against your identical Thai tax obligation (or vice versa, since you can easily pay Thailand first) if you do not meet the US test and are tax-resident here.

 

*Tax $17,134 / $110,000 income = 15.6%.  The % rate Turbo gives is misleading.

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/  

 

Not an accountant -- just an ordinary taxpayer who is able to RTFM.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by retiree

[Klonko]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Taxable Income per year (Baht) Tax rate

0 – 150,000 Exempt

150,000 – 300,000 5%

300,000 – 500,000 10%

500,000 – 750,000 15%

750,000 – 1,000,000 20%

1,000,000 – 2,000,000 25%

2,000,000 – 4,000,000 30%

Over 4,000,000 35% 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/AEC/AseanTax-Thailand.pdf

Which results in relatively low tax rates:

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Klonko

[The Cyclist]

12 hours ago, stat said:

Making a lot of friends here in 14 posts huh?

Another wild @$$ assumption you got wrong.

 

Who tries to make friends with anonymous internet pixels ?
 

I'm still waiting on your expert* opinion on how I have misunderstood the UK / Thai DTA with regards to my 2 pensions.

 

As you appear to be avoiding the issue like the plague, I will deduce that you are not an expert and have nothing better to do than post hundreds of posts that appear to come straight out your hoop.

 

* The so called experts that I met in my early days of coming to Thailand, were so good that the were living in bedsits and riding Honda Waves and the only thing they seemed to be experts in was ducking and diving and trying to cadge free beer.

[Ricardo]

13 hours ago, stat said:

They dont need to as you have to present your passport when you exhange money in a bank or with superrich etc. You could exchange at home and lose like 3% on the exchange rate though. I would not carry more then 10K euro/USD any way.

Just to point out that one might ask one's everloving-wife, for one example, to pop into the exchange-shop with some Sterling/Dollar-cash, to be exchanged into Baht on your behalf. ????

[moogradod]

1 hour ago, mania said:

This thread & the subject... even if unsure highlights many expats greatest fear.

 

That is the flexible goal posts

Does not matter if the subject is about future taxation or the Health Insurance requirements that has been bubbling for years, or even the possible increase in Visa Ext financial requirements. It is the indecisiveness that makes it tough

 

IMO It is this type of tension that is the worst for any expat ????

 

Extremely spot on. The unsecurity in many ways is the absolute worst here. It has actually made me real sick and I get medicine from a hospital which provides me with loads of nice purple pills in any quantity. At least that.

 

Besides I really thought that I do not have to pay taxes on my pension and so I have "missed" two of them it seems after all I read. Now what to do when again changes are in the air. Walk into the RD to explain (it would be peanuts for them, but who knows).

 

To pay anything, even for past years would be the least problem. I have enough money. But I only may under no circumstances risk that my stay in the country is endangered.

 

This would have an impact on my family is well - and that is acutally why I came here in the first place with a preparation over many years. I have as well a heart problem and cannot just move as some suggest to Malaysia or somewhere else - let alone that I would never leave my family. It does not look like it is going to become a real problem but when it is (many influences that could have an impact - too complicated to mention all) then this means I will have to depart to where no flight ticket is needed.

 

I must admit that I did imagine a more beautiful retirement age than what I have now for the few upcoming years that I might still survive. And most of the reason is the uncertainty that sourrounds so many subjects here in Thailand. I hope I can get all straight with the (probable easy - but not sure) tax issues, this would be a big step forward again.

[Klonko]

AFAIK: Thai banks notify Thai RD on accounts with either ≥ 3000 transactions or ≥ THB 1.8m turnover per year. Assuming these thresholds are not changed and you do not have a Thai tax ID, you will not show on Thai RD radar if you stay below both limits. The yellow house book goes automatically with a Tax ID.