Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, retiree said:

Lord, if you are listening, please please please open an Expats will leave Thailand proposition on a hard-money prediction market so that I can short it.  Judging by the number of times it has been raised I'm sure it will be a well-capitalized market, and worthy of Your indulgence. 

Good luck with that - but I dont think he is listening at the moment 🙂

 

One of the problems with dealing with Expats in Thailand, is that the Thai Govt does not know how many there are.

Therefore, they have no idea how many left when the Junta started cracking down on the 'Bad Guys'.

Likewise, they will not know how many will leave if they start imposing income taxes - nor will we know for sure.

 

What I can  say is that one of the Thai lawyers I know has got involved in the 'review' currently being undertaken by the Thai RD, and likewise so has a member of my Wife's Thai family (who is also married to an Expat). The lawyer is saying nothing, and I doubt he will be trying to stop Expats having to lodge a tax return (good for his business). But the Thai family member has said that there are hundreds of other Thai Wives also complaining about the fear that their Expat husbands will leave Thailand if they have to pay income taxes.  Obviously they are all on the 'Married Visa' - but I assume the same thing will be felt by many of those on the 'Retirement Visa'. Certainly there has been a lot of Expats saying the same thing on this forum.  And I do know a few Expats, and all of them are saying 'no way'  - it is one thing to deal with all the illogicval, inconsistent and downright stupid things that Thai Immigration imposes on Expats, but it will be another thing altogether if the Thai RD becomes a part of our lives.

 

[The Cyclist]

10 hours ago, andux said:

 

Not all traveling is a "good 2-week holiday" in a resort or being all day visiting attractions, doing city tours and buying souvenirs.

 

Traveling can also involve renting an apartment for a couple of months somewhere to live there almost like a local, with the occasional night out or museum visit. 

 

Sure

 

Do you really think  $$$ 7 digit income people spend $5000 annually travelling to avoid a bit of a tax ?

 

BKK - London 1st class return on Emirates is $5000 in itself, then add on the extras.

 

Now, low $$$ double digit people I could understand slumming it to save a bit on tax.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure

 

Do you really think  $$$ 7 digit income people spend $5000 annually travelling to avoid a bit of a tax ?

 

BKK - London 1st class return on Emirates is $5000 in itself, then add on the extras.

 

Now, low $$$ double digit people I could understand slumming it to save a bit on tax.

When you say slumming, surely you don't mean travelling business class, do you?

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Unless they earn money for you - rent, interest, returns, etc. which technically is taxable. 

I do not think capital gains tax would be applicable - but I am not sure about that one. I dont have assets that I will sell for a profit. 

 

Capital Gains are including & to make things worse they are treated as normal Income so subject to the sliding scale of up to 35% tax.  

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

When you say slumming, surely you don't mean travelling business class, do you?

 

Nah

 

I was meaning the $$$ 7 digit income people who trawl sites like # cheapflights.com and slum it in cattle class trying to save a few $$$ in tax.

 

Must be fahsands and fahsands of them🤣🤣

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

20 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure

 

Do you really think  $$$ 7 digit income people spend $5000 annually travelling to avoid a bit of a tax ?

 

BKK - London 1st class return on Emirates is $5000 in itself, then add on the extras.

 

Now, low $$$ double digit people I could understand slumming it to save a bit on tax.

 

Let say somebody spends 150K pm, so needs to bring in 1.8Million pa into Thailand to fund it, the tax due on this would be approx. 500K, so they would now need to bring in 2.3Millon pa.

 

OR they could spend 6 months every 3rd year outside of Thailand & bring over 5.4Million (1.8Million x 3) in the year they're non-tax resident, this would give them approx. 2.2Million to fund their 6 month "holiday", made up of... 

• 3 x 500K tax saved
• 6 x 150K they they would normally spend in Thailand
• minus 200K to cover fixed costs like paying the rent for their condo whilst they were away.

 

Pretty sure they could have a very nice holiday on $10,000pm 🙂 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[K2938]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

Well, the ATM point is valid for 2 reasons...

 

#1 If your card is ever not returned, you will have someone to talk to..

#2 ATMs at a bank have a much lower chance of having a skimmer..

And that is not only good advice for Thailand, but for any country really!

 

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Let say somebody spends 150K pm, so needs to bring in 1.8Million pa into Thailand to fund it, the tax due on this would be approx. 500K, so they would now need to bring in 2.3Millon pa.

 

Speculation on your part.

 

I bring in via 2 x pensions between baht 115k - 200k a month. No idea how much tax I will have to pay ( if any ) until the powers that be clarify things.

 

So I wont be upping that to baht 2.odd million, I will be reducing it before the 01 Jan ( paperwork already done ) until such times as clarity is gained.

 

Not really rocket science, with the added bous of not having to trawl the internet hunting for cheap travel or fretting about making plans that are a waste of time and effort until clarity is gained.

Edited November 3, 2023 by The Cyclist
tupo

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Speculation on your part.

 

I bring in via 2 x pensions between baht 115k - 200k a month. No idea how much tax I will have to pay ( if any ) until the powers that be clarify things.

 

So I wont be upping that to baht 2.odd million, I will be reducing it before the 01 Jan ( paperwork already done ) until such times as clarity is gained.

 

Not really rocket science, with the added bous of not having to trawl the internet hunting for cheap travel or fretting about making plans that are a waste of time and effort until clarity is gained.

 

You could call it speculation, but all my income comes from Rent, Dividends & Capital Gains and from the little information we've got so far, would seem to be subject to Thai Tax,  so I call it my "Plan B".

 

Especially as I plan on selling my UK House next year (using the money to buy a Condo here) & taking the 25% Tax Free lump sum when my pensions kick in in 2026. 

 

 

[morg]

Hi I rent out 2 propertys in UK will I have to pay tax in Thailand 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

You could call it speculation,

 

Everything on this thread is speculation, until such times as the powers that be issue another edict to bring clarity.

 

It would be wise to look at your own personal circumstances and take active steps to mitigate getting rogered by the Thai taxman, rather than speculating on what might be.

[andux]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure

 

Do you really think  $$$ 7 digit income people spend $5000 annually travelling to avoid a bit of a tax ?

 

BKK - London 1st class return on Emirates is $5000 in itself, then add on the extras.

 

Now, low $$$ double digit people I could understand slumming it to save a bit on tax.

 

Lots of fallacies and assumptions in your post, and you're avoiding the original argument. 

 

Let's get back to it: you said that it's impossible to spend $5k a year traveling because a 2-week trip already costs $5k.

 

My answer: it's possible to travel a few times a year and spend $5k. Rent apartments for 1-2 months and live like a local.

 

Whether the person doing that is a billionaire or a broke student is irrelevant. The fact remains.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, andux said:

Let's get back to it: you said that it's impossible to spend $5k a year traveling

 

Actually, I didn't

 

I said $$$ 7 figure income people do not spend $5000 a year travelling to save a bit of money on some tax.

 

3 minutes ago, andux said:

My answer: it's possible to travel a few times a year and spend $5k. Rent apartments for 1-2 months and live like a local.

 

Sure it is. How many $$$ 7 figure income people  do you know that travel cattle class, rent $ 100 a month apartments and live on noodle soup ?

[stat]

12 hours ago, andux said:

 

Not all traveling is a "good 2-week holiday" in a resort or being all day visiting attractions, doing city tours and buying souvenirs.

 

Traveling can also involve renting an apartment for a couple of months somewhere to live there almost like a local, with the occasional night out or museum visit. 

Thanks for your post! I was talking about additional 5K USD financial needs to relocate instead of staying in TH the whole year. While you live somewhere else you do spend your money in the other country NOT in TH.  Hard to understand huh bike lover? For the rest of us do not feed the trolls i.e. a certain guy who pretends to have a bike.

 

PS: Cyclict save your breath you are on ignore since ages but I have to add citations also. Talk to the hand you know the drill I am sure.

Edited November 3, 2023 by stat

[stat]

14 hours ago, Lorry said:

SCB - as safe as the monarchy

KTB - as safe as the government

BBL - as safe as Thai capitalism

The problem remains if the government will also save "the farangs" if push comes to shove. My guess is no.

[The Cyclist]

11 minutes ago, stat said:

S: Cyclict save your breath you are on ignore since ages but I have to add citations also. Talk to the hand you know the drill I am sure.

 

Ohhhh my gawd, I'm absolutely gutted and distraught.

 

Whats wrong petal, not handle people laughing at your speculation.

[stat]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Unless they earn money for you - rent, interest, returns, etc. which technically is taxable. 

I do not think capital gains tax would be applicable - but I am not sure about that one. I dont have assets that I will sell for a profit. 

 

Taxable ONLY WHEN REMITTED.  You can make a lot of money on interest and not transfer to Thailand and do not have to pay a penny in TH.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, stat said:

The problem remains if the government will also save "the farangs" if push comes to shove. My guess is no.

It is NOT the Thai government it is the Deposit Protection Agency which reports to BOT. My guess is absolutely yes they will, why? Because no foreigner would ever deposit funds into a Thai bank again, if they didn't.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It is NOT the Thai government it is the Deposit Protection Agency which reports to BOT. My guess is absolutely yes they will, why? Because no foreigner would ever deposit funds into a Thai bank again, if they didn't.

 

Oiiiii you

 

Don't spoil his Doom & Gloom narrative 🤣🤣

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Oiiiii you

 

Don't spoil his Doom & Gloom narrative 🤣🤣

Sorry, won't 'appen again.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, stat said:

Taxable ONLY WHEN REMITTED.  You can make a lot of money on interest and not transfer to Thailand and do not have to pay a penny in TH.

Thanks - and No Thanks to the Thai apologists saying everything is fine and stop discussing what to do if/when and planning accordingly. 

[Klonko]

22 hours ago, K2938 said:

So what would you consider to be the "safest" banks in Thailand from a fraud/bankruptcy risk point of view?

I worry more about cyber risk if I transfer this (non tax resident) year a few millions THB to Thailand.

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, morg said:

Hi I rent out 2 propertys in UK will I have to pay tax in Thailand 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

Property income dividends get "FULL RELIEF", so only UK tax probably, 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

(1) Income from immovable property may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated.

(3) The provisions of paragraph (1) of this Article shall apply to income derived from the direct use, letting, or use in any other form of immovable property.

 

 

 

[stat]

4 hours ago, Klonko said:

I worry more about cyber risk if I transfer this (non tax resident) year a few millions THB to Thailand.

Do not forget that you lose interest while your money does not earn income in TH instaead of 5% in USD funds

[UKresonant]

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Everything on this thread is speculation, until such times as the powers that be issue another edict to bring clarity.

 

It would be wise to look at your own personal circumstances and take active steps to mitigate getting rogered by the Thai taxman, rather than speculating on what might be.

 

Well the it seems clear that with previous years income no longer converting to be considered savings in a ring fenced account before sending to Thailand in a later year. From a UK perspective, unless you have Dividends from immovable property (which I have none) or Gov or local authority Pensions (which I have some). Pretty much everything else is liable to tax in Thailand as soon as you click past the cumulative179 day threshold.

The clarity would be why they would not pursue it? From my pension point of view it's all taxed in UK, but has (ex-Gov . ones) the potential to be assessed in Thailand. 

The potential complexity is the disappointment here, it is like they seem want to put a little salt in the Tea rather than sweetener, still drinkable, but are you still happy with the Tea house,  though the cakes are good.

 

Since I'm still in they UK, my first action is for me to direct all taxed at source income to a single bank and assoc. savings from that ring fenced from everything else (as far as practicable). It's just going from simplicity to complexity, and the potential time it uses up, that it disruptive, for extended tourist status...

[Mike Lister]

15 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I am already paying 'fees' for the privilege of spending over a million baht in Thailand every year - on which I pay a lot of VAT (far more than the average Thai).  But I have no legal rights, I cannot use the hospitals for SFA costs like the Thais, I pay more than the Thais for most things (dual pricing),  and I get no Govt benefits or services (including the 10K handout, and the Travel Incentives, etc etc etc).  I can accept that as part of the deal, including placing a large amount of my money into a bank account, and being forced to get medical insurance. I am treated like and given the same rights and benefits as a (long term) tourist - I cannot and will not accept also paying income taxes. 

 

I spent time this morning, reading back through some of the posts in this thread and was struck by how much disinformation, inaccurate information and general negative slant there is. The subject of the thread is taxation in Thailand yet it has become a vent for anything and everything about Thailand that people don't like, unreasonably so. For example:

 

Paying more VAT than the average Thai is entirely reasonable when your income is 1 million baht a year and theirs is only a fifth of that amount. That doesn't give you special privileges, why would you expect that it does?

 

You say you cannot use the hospitals for SFA like Thais but you can, anyone can. The problem is that you wont because you don't know how and if you did, you still wont use them because they are not westernised and don't meet your standards. I use my local Amphur hospital for care, as do other foreigners around me. The medical standards are high, the quality of care is very high and the cost is extremely low. The problem from your perspective is that you have to jostle with hoards of locals, queue for unacceptably long periods and hardly anyone nearby speaks good English.

 

Then you say you pay more for most things than Thai's because of dual pricing, if you do, you need to get wise! The groceries in TOPS, Lotus's and Big C are not segregated such that foreigners pay one price and Thai's another, theatre tickets cost the same.  Electric, water, and car tax bills are the same plus new clothes are not priced differently. Diesel and petrol costs are the same, hotels rooms cost the same as do meals in restaurants.

 

Finally you say you don't get benefits such as the 10k handout, really, you actually said that! You understand I hope that is because you are not a Thai citizen and you don't pay into the social security system and likely never have yet you appear to want something(s) for nothing. 

 

I can only conclude one of two things about the things you have written. Either, you do not understand anything about the environment here or you have completely unreasonable expectations, which every it is, you do not appear equipped to comment on matters such as taxation of foreigners in Thailand either because of your lack of knowledge or your inability to be reasonable and fair.

 

[jerrymahoney]

Indirect response to the no way Ho-Zay post above, I will say that my back-of-the-envelope calculation as to my 70K baht/month retirement extension deposit with NO reference to DTA ie social security issues, using only deductions as available TODAY, my tax on income would be about $US 100 per month.

 

I would prefer not paying it but will not invoke the Doomsday scenario because of it.

[Klonko]

8 hours ago, stat said:

Do not forget that you lose interest while your money does not earn income in TH instaead of 5% in USD funds

0.5-1.5% interest forsaken in my home currency over 3-5 years better than 10% tax rate in Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, Klonko said:

0.5-1.5% interest forsaken in my home currency over 3-5 years better than 10% tax rate in Thailand.

The currency interest aspect is a red herring. Few people would invest in THB for the interest rate on cash but they would invest for the exchange rate appreciation and/or the security of having sufficient cash on hand to avoid future exchange rate angst, THB is very volatile.

[Hornell]

"I spent time this morning, reading back through some of the posts in this thread and was struck by how much disinformation, inaccurate information and general negative slant there is. The subject of the thread is taxation in Thailand yet it has become a vent for anything and everything about Thailand that people don't like, unreasonably so."
Absolutely right!  I have never read so much waffle and rubbish.  Close the thread, Admin!