Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[kuma]

13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I can't see for one moment that foreign currency already in the country should be an issue, it's the date of transfer into the country that's important, not the currency..

In an earlier time, I would not even have bothered to mention it - but this world has fallen so precipitously that I can very easily seeing that being made a condition. They are free to do so if they so if desired - it would be an error imo but that is hardly considered as a factor anymore.

[kuma]

6 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I have not found anything either - but I would seek professional advice first - after Thai RD has provided their 'clarifications and exemptions'. 

There are a LOT of Thais working overseas who send money home as a 'gift' to their Thai family - they are also asking for clarification. The list of people asking for 'clarification' on this matter is very large.

 

Yet again, Thai 'authorities' have jumped in head first and broken their necks on the hidden rocks just below the surface - it is amazing how often that they do this - when a simple 'look and feel' would have shown some of the potential problems - it is almost like it is 'genetic' - they just dont seem to want to know about any potential problems, when they get an idea.  Actually, I do know this one - I just recalled about a mate who was employed as a consultant and in one meeting the Boss sais 'lets do this'. He was about to say something when he realsied that he should not - and no one else said anything contradictatory either - it was just 'accepted'.  Needless to say it was all a cluster***** and the Boss just 'walked away'. 

The 'process' is not a bug its a feature, imo. They save untold millions on consultants and 1000, nay 1,000,000s of hours of effort (net of work to analyze all the input), system wide, by throwing out these policies, partially conceived, to the  populace - then sit back and scoop absolutely tons of free input, from so many perspectives. It  actually allows for low cost lobbying to occur, as all this feedback is grass roots generated and - using this forum as an example (NOT saying they would refer to this forum, but they are getting loads of input from affected Nationals, etc, online) virtually free for individuals to raise a voice. So flipping it on its head, this is a more democratic and equal method for people to have their voices heard - as opposed to say the absolutely corrupted lobbyist models that exist in much of the world...where special interests w deep pockets and few morals have a stranglehold on how policy will be formed.

[kuma]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

1. The mental contortions some people are putting themselves through are worth reading for the amusement factor..

 

2. The extrapolation from the initial announcement is worthy of a Thai Soap scriptwriter.

 

3. Whilst being midly amused, I hang around waiting for a definitive announcement from the RD.

 

If anyone is looking for a nice chilled out place to have lunch, I can recommend this place.

 

 

 

I'll let you try and work out where it is, it will stop you fretting about the RD

you are sure throwing rocks from a glass house...maybe the one above? Your inane banter on this thread makes me think you are one of the cyclist types that always triggers other road users into wanting to run them down, lol. If you think you are contributing some gold to the thread, uh no...imo.

enjoy the evening

[Guavaman]

22 minutes ago, kuma said:

I can't see for one moment that foreign currency already in the country should be an issue, it's the date of transfer into the country that's important, not the currency..

For what it's worth, when I transfer funds from my Bangkok Bank US dollar account to my Thai Baht account, it shows as FTT = foreign transfer, which is actually a loophole in the 65k monthly income requirement of immigration.

 

For example, one could transfer a lump sum into a dollar account here before Jan. 1st, and then simply transfer 65k each month from the dollar account to a Baht account to show immigration. 

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, kuma said:

you are sure throwing rocks from a glass house

 

Enlighten me, Ohhhh wise one.

 

Have you recieved a personal briefing from the head of the RD ?
 

I'm sure you will excuse me if I do not subscribe to some of the hysterics that have been posted on this thread.

[KannikaP]

2 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

For what it's worth, when I transfer funds from my Bangkok Bank US dollar account to my Thai Baht account, it shows as FTT = foreign transfer, which is actually a loophole in the 65k monthly income requirement of immigration.

 

For example, one could transfer a lump sum into a dollar account here before Jan. 1st, and then simply transfer 65k each month from the dollar account to a Baht account to show immigration. 

I was under the impression that there must be a separate International Transfer EVERY month, from outside Thailand.

[The Cyclist]

35 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

Nice trip to Khao Yai?

 

Lovely little spot for lunch.

[Guavaman]

12 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I was under the impression that there must be a separate International Transfer EVERY month, from outside Thailand.

Yes, that is the requirement. But the evidence used is the bank statement and letter from the bank that shows FTT transfers into the Baht account.  I suppose that immigration could ask for credit advice on each transfer, but that is not the practice now -- immigration uses the information from the bank where the Baht account is located.

[KannikaP]

15 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Yes, that is the requirement. But the evidence used is the bank statement and letter from the bank that shows FTT transfers into the Baht account.  I suppose that immigration could ask for credit advice on each transfer, but that is not the practice now -- immigration uses the information from the bank where the Baht account is located.

So are you saying that a transfer from a Thai based USD account would show as a Foreign Transfer when sent to a Baht account?

I shall stick to a monthly Wise transfer from my UK account, be it GBP or THB which I have already converted. Always arrives as an FTT in Bkk Bank, as long as you tick for Long Stay in Thailand.

Edited December 12, 2023 by KannikaP

[Guavaman]

26 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

So are you saying that a transfer from a Thai based USD account would show as a Foreign Transfer when sent to a Baht account?

Yes -- every time that I transfer from my Bangkok Bank $ account to my Bangkok Bank Baht account, it shows as FTT.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Yes -- every time that I transfer from my Bangkok Bank $ account to my Bangkok Bank Baht account, it shows as FTT.

I think that's probably OK for everyone because the objective of transfering money is to buy baht in exchange for foreign currency. The fact the physical transfer was made last year shouldn't mean much, it's when you actually sell it and buy baht that counts.

[Guavaman]

49 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The fact the physical transfer was made last year shouldn't mean much, it's when you actually sell it and buy baht that counts.

There is still a physical transfer of Baht funds into the receiving account on the date shown in the bank book and statement with the FTT code.  

 

However, for RD the remittance would show up twice: once in the dollar account and then again in the Baht account. That could complicate things for RD, which might want to see both account statements and double count the remittance for income tax assessment purposes.

[stat]

17 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

What is the downside of transferring your funds before January 1?

Loss of potential interest on your principal, some low risk of losing the money due to capital movement restrictions or thai bank closures (highly unlikely) Disclaimer I work in risk management so I deal with risk on a daily basis.

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The fact the physical transfer was made last year shouldn't mean much, it's when you actually sell it and buy baht that counts.

 

Does this mean that a foreign currency account is kind of classed as an off shore type account?

 

What I mean is - lets say I remit a bunch of money into a USD account and only make monthly transfers into Baht as I need them - are they going to tax every cent deposited into the USD account regardless of whether I actually change it into Baht or not?

 

[kuma]

4 hours ago, Guavaman said:

For what it's worth, when I transfer funds from my Bangkok Bank US dollar account to my Thai Baht account, it shows as FTT = foreign transfer, which is actually a loophole in the 65k monthly income requirement of immigration.

 

For example, one could transfer a lump sum into a dollar account here before Jan. 1st, and then simply transfer 65k each month from the dollar account to a Baht account to show immigration. 

Thanks for that, very interesting. I cant remember last time I ever looked at a statement, now will for sure  and see if the last conversion I did was treated as such.

So does it mean that if you bring some other currency here before Jan 1, you also need to convert it to THB prior to Jan 1, or it will be considered an FTT when one decides to convert it - for the purposes of this new tax regime? Depending on the currency, this month not maybe the best time to convert....

[kuma]

38 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Does this mean that a foreign currency account is kind of classed as an off shore type account?

 

What I mean is - lets say I remit a bunch of money into a USD account and only make monthly transfers into Baht as I need them - are they going to tax every cent deposited into the USD account regardless of whether I actually change it into Baht or not?

 

And the questions keep piling up. In my case, if I transfer foreign currency here, it is held in an escrow account and the only way I can use it is to convert it to THB and deposit it to my account. I can take up to two years to decide when I want to convert it - but I cannot transfer it back out, it must be converted. I use that as a way to keep a reserve and take advantage of favourable currency swings when/if they occur - with the funds here I can convert it in under two minutes. But now I wonder what the PTB are going to deem as funds transferred to Thailand,.....

[K2938]

"Those who obtain the LTR visa are exempted from paying personal income tax on their foreign assets or earnings.

 

Since the launch of the scheme in September 2022, over 3,000 LTRs have been granted to foreigners. In the weeks since the Sep 15 announcement of the new tax regulation, there has been a 14 per cent increase in LTR applications, according to sources."

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/international/asean/thailands-tweak-tax-regulation-foreign-income-sparks-confusion-worries

[Danderman123]

A Thai national working abroad (permanently) sends baht to his family in Thailand (more than 1M baht per year).

 

Is this a taxable event?

 

Who pays the taxes?

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Does this mean that a foreign currency account is kind of classed as an off shore type account?

 

What I mean is - lets say I remit a bunch of money into a USD account and only make monthly transfers into Baht as I need them - are they going to tax every cent deposited into the USD account regardless of whether I actually change it into Baht or not?

 

An excellent question, I don't know the answer for certain but I doubt it. I think this is just something that slipped through the cracks. Whilst it may be OK for Immi/visa purposes, it may not be OK for RD purposes.

[The Cyclist]

9 hours ago, ukrules said:

oes this mean that a foreign currency account is kind of classed as an off shore type account?

 

I cannot help you with that question.

 

9 hours ago, ukrules said:

What I mean is - lets say I remit a bunch of money into a USD account and only make monthly transfers into Baht as I need them - are they going to tax every cent deposited into the USD account regardless of whether I actually change it into Baht or not?

 

My thoughts only.

 

I have a USD account with Krungsri, all remittances were made between 2009 and 2019 ( I was never a tax resident during those years )

 

I would expect that if I made remittances to that account after Jan 2024, those remittances would be assessable and taxable in Thailand.

 

It is another one of those, its so easy, just Gift  your money to someone else and job jobbed.

 

Just open a FCA and stick your money in there, job jobbed.

 

Nothing to declare and no tax to pay in Thailand.

 

If it were that simple, the Tax Experts, would have told us this already.

[ukrules]

32 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

My thoughts only.

 

I suspect you're correct on each point you make

[Mike Teavee]

8 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

A Thai national working abroad (permanently) sends baht to his family in Thailand (more than 1M baht per year).

 

Is this a taxable event?

 

Who pays the taxes?

It depends on "Who" they're sending the money to,  "What" they're sending the money over for & "How Much" they're sending, but based on current rules & the fact that there have been no announcements changing the "Gift" part of these, IMHO...

1. If they're sending money back to themselves then there should be no tax liable from the Thai national as they're not Tax Resident. 
2. If the money is below 20M & being gifted to a Spouse or a Child for their use only & they get no direct financial benefit from it (e.g. the money could not be used to buy land/property in the Senders name) - No Tax is liable
3. If the money is below 10M & a gift to a close friend/partner to mark a significant occasion (e.g. Wedding) or to provide support (Moral Obligation) & they get no direct financial benefit from it (again, couldn't be used to buy anything in the senders name) - No Tax is liable
4. If the money is above the 10/20M thresholds & is a "Gift" then 5% tax to pay by the person receiving it. 

However, as has been discussed in the thread already, the 10/20M "Gift" loophole would seem to make a mockery of the new rules so although I believe it will stay in some form (maybe a reduced limit to 1/2M THB) I would image any such "Gifts" would be intensely scrutinised. 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[jerrymahoney]

As I noted earlier this topic, the US does have a tax free foreign gift provision but around 3 million baht equivalent not 20 million baht. Strict reporting requirements involved.

Edited December 13, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[homeseeker]

So will the RD announce anything soon? Or maybe they will just say nothing?

[positivevibes]

This tax nonsense is never gonna happen. You are a complete mug if you declare any income here.

 

Key to success in this country is to stay under the radar. Those who ignore this often end up taking base jumps from condos.

[topt]

1 hour ago, homeseeker said:

So will the RD announce anything soon? Or maybe they will just say nothing?

What's the hurry...........

 

Rule change planned to take effect from 1/01 24 which means it does not become applicable for most until tax returns fillable from 1/01/25. 

And before anyone says it I know that does not help planning but doubt the RD is concerned about that.......

[Steve2UK]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:44 PM, Mike Lister said:

The simplest way would be to transfer before 31 December but if you don't, it shouldn't really matter since you can prove that money was earned prior to 31 December 2023.

Many thanks for the reply but........

 

Many thanks for the helpful reply.

There's a potential wrinkle in this. I actually owned 2 flats (in the same converted house) - one in my own name as main residence (and I already transfered sale proceeds from that one to a Thai bank account 2 years ago). The other flat was legally speaking owned by my own one-man-band company (I'm sole director). To keep things clean from an HMRC (UK tax) perspective, those proceeds from that sale went into my company's account. I eventually moved the funds from my company account into my (UK) personal account - in December 2023.

 

If I go for "remitting" them to Thailand at some point in 2024, I assume that just the transfer between the UK bank accounts should be solid enough proof that it's pre-2024 income. Conversely, if "remitting" them to Thailand this month (i.e. pre-1 January 2024) that 'proof' only argues that it's apparently 2023 income.

 

My instinct as per the November PAW 162 Thai RD Mazars translation (attached) is that "remitting" into Thailand after 1 January is the way to go (as you suggest). My worry is that Thai RD might soon pull yet another switcheroo that mucks up my assumptions/actions based on PAW 162 staying in force and being applied as evenly/straightforwardly as the wording strongly implies (TiT etc).

 

Incidentally, I have it in mind to transfer the new funds (about 16 million bahtsworth) into a separate Thai bank account - to keep it out of the one that I regularly use for extending my retirement visa; my last visa extension was September this year and my account details at that time showed a balance of about 18 million baht. No queries were raised by immigration about that - but I find myself wondering if immigration seeing a near doubling of the balance when it comes to next year's extension (and in the wake of the current tax fracas) might be a different matter (as in might they be minded to query it and/or decide to notify Thai RD? Worth saying again. as per my original post, that I am not registered with a Thai tax number and never have been since I first started living in Thailand full-time in 2006.

 

Grateful for any further thoughts.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Steve2UK

[TravelerEastWest]

21 hours ago, kuma said:

The 'process' is not a bug its a feature, imo. They save untold millions on consultants and 1000, nay 1,000,000s of hours of effort (net of work to analyze all the input), system wide, by throwing out these policies, partially conceived, to the  populace - then sit back and scoop absolutely tons of free input, from so many perspectives. It  actually allows for low cost lobbying to occur, as all this feedback is grass roots generated and - using this forum as an example (NOT saying they would refer to this forum, but they are getting loads of input from affected Nationals, etc, online) virtually free for individuals to raise a voice. So flipping it on its head, this is a more democratic and equal method for people to have their voices heard - as opposed to say the absolutely corrupted lobbyist models that exist in much of the world...where special interests w deep pockets and few morals have a stranglehold on how policy will be formed.

 

I am not sure if you are joking but I like your point of view... It could be that you are 100% correct and this is a Thai way of thinking maybe a cousin to Japanese consensus thinking?

[beautifulthailand99]

17 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

A Thai national working abroad (permanently) sends baht to his family in Thailand (more than 1M baht per year).

 

Is this a taxable event?

 

Who pays the taxes?

There is an underground money transfer service. I know it operates in London and agents go around Thai businesses on a weekly basis and take cash that appears within hours on their Thai bank accounts at close to the exchange rate. It is widely used as to how it works god only knows.

[Foxx]

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

There is an underground money transfer service. I know it operates in London and agents go around Thai businesses on a weekly basis and take cash that appears within hours on their Thai bank accounts at close to the exchange rate. It is widely used as to how it works god only knows.

 

I'm guessing that's hawala, and that should be "how it works Allah only knows".  You do have to get the end of your penis chopped off before you can use it, though.