Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jerrymahoney]

36 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There is only so much hypothesis, supposition and conjecture that can be debated without rehashing the same things repeatedly and recovering the same ground, but that’s just me.

Without knowing where this all will end-up, to me it was useful to become at least aware of the Thai Revenue Code, (for me) the US-Thailand DTA, and some of the published opinions by the various Bangkok-based tax law and accountancy firms.

 

Final interpretations can wait. I make the 65K+ baht monthly FTT deposits for retirement extension and, for me, nothing on that will change post-2024.

 

Based on the current deductions available as of TODAY for Thai income tax, if I had to pay tax, I wouldn't like it but it would not be any prohibitive amount.
 

Edited December 22, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

Without knowing where this all will end-up, to me it was useful to become at least aware of the Thai Revenue Code, (for me) the US-Thailand DTA, and some of the published opinions by the various Bangkok-based tax law and accountancy firms.

 

Final interpretations can wait. I make the 65K+ baht monthly FTT deposits for retirement extension and, for me, nothing on that will change post-2024.
 

Sure, but what about after page 100!

[jerrymahoney]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sure, but what about after page 100!

What about your 447 posts?

 

But it's fun to read the 'How can I stay under the RD radar posts' that always pop up.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

What about your 447 posts?

 

But it's fun to read the 'How can I stay under the RD radar posts' that always pop up.

Sure, but when the it's done it's done, it's like life support for a corpse.

[jerrymahoney]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Sure, but when the it's done it's done, it's like life support for a corpse.

I'm not a mod. If they want to close it, no problem for me. But there are also parallel topics like living solely off ATM withdrawals or declaring oneself as a Thai wife's dependent (?) with no reported income.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

I'm not a mod. If they want to close it, no problem for me. But there are also parallel topics like living solely off ATM withdrawals or declaring oneself as a Thai wife's dependent (?) with no reported income.

Jerry, if you guys are getting something out of it, far be it for me to spoil the party, I'm just expressing my view. I think those parallel threads are equally as bizarre, if not more so. It's people scaremongering, fantasising, grasping at straws, all of which might be understandable were it not for the fact that RD has pretty much said this is WIP, stay tuned and we all know that.

[jerrymahoney]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Jerry, if you guys are getting something out of it, far be it for me to spoil the party, I'm just expressing my view. I think those parallel threads are equally as bizarre, if not more so. It's people scaremongering, fantasising, grasping at straws, all of which might be understandable were it not for the fact that RD has pretty much said this is WIP, stay tuned and we all know that.

So some of it is factual information and some just plain entertainment.

 

And some, as I noted, since President Bill Clinton put the US-Thailand DTA into force, we can just argue about what the meaning of 'is' is.

Edited December 22, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Danderman123]

So... many people are predicting the new tax scheme is unworkable and will be abandoned.

 

My question is: how will we know the scheme has been officially adopted? My guess it will be official as of January 1, 2024. No publication in the Royal Gazette, nothing more to be announced.

 

Conversely, how will we know if the new scheme is abandoned, as many suggest it will be?

 

My take is the new scheme will become effective on January 1, but not enforced widely. It will be used in a few high profile cases, but, down the road, no one will worry about it. Like the motorcycle helmet law, only enforced in a handful of cases, mostly for Farangs.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Danderman123

[Danderman123]

My opinion is that all of my foreign income has been subjected to taxation at rates higher than Thailand, and so, under the DTA, not taxable in Thailand. So I will only fill out a tax return in Thailand if it is a mandate for visa renewal.

 

As a precaution, I will only transfer into Thailand my monthly pension amount. I have already loaded up my Thai bank account with extra funds.

[UKresonant]

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-exchange-of-information/ieim402780

Does this relate to pension transfers maybe...

IEIM402847 - Pre-Existing Individual Accounts: Lower Value Accounts: Standing Instructions  Diligence: Pre-Existing Individual Accounts: Lower Value Accounts: Standing Instructions

Where at the time of review there are current standing instructions to transfer funds to an account maintained in a Reportable Jurisdiction, the account must be reported unless the UK Financial Institution obtains or currently maintains a record of:

• a self-certification that the Account Holder is not tax resident in the Reportable Jurisdiction; and

• a form of acceptable documentary evidence which establishes the Account Holder’s non-reportable status. [see IEIM402760]

There will be a standing instruction if the Account Holder has mandated the Financial Institution to make repeat payments without further instruction from the Account Holder, to another account that can be clearly identified as being an account maintained in a Reportable Jurisdiction.

Instructions to make an isolated payment will not be a standing instruction even when given significantly in advance of the payment being made.

Edited December 22, 2023 by UKresonant

[Danderman123]

A question for the experts:

 

On January 1, I go to Chiang Mai and buy an elephant (or new car) with my US credit card. I don't supply my passport number, nor is my US credit card connected to Thailand in any way.

 

I sell the elephant for cash money.

 

How would RD track either of these transactions?

 

Assuming impossibility of tracing the cash flows, is either transaction legally tax evasion?

Edited December 23, 2023 by Danderman123

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

A question for the experts:

 

On January 1, I go to Chiang Mai and buy an elephant (or new car) with my US credit card. I don't supply my passport number, nor is my US credit card connected to Thailand in any way.

 

I sell the elephant for cash money.

 

How would RD track either of these transactions?

 

Assuming impossibility of tracing the cash flows, is either transaction legally tax evasion?

You used your card in Thailand, Visa/ Mastercard networks know this because that's where the transaction was made. The debit on your card was then returned to your issuing bank in the US so that you could be billed. In theory, the Thai RD could request transaction data from visa/mastercard networks Thailand, all of which must pass through the Thai banking system as part of cross border payments. Alternatively, the elephant turns out to to speak English and has a cousin who works for the RD and he rats on you.

[Danderman123]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

You used your card in Thailand, Visa/ Mastercard networks know this because that's where the transaction was made. The debit on your card was then returned to your issuing bank in the US so that you could be billed. In theory, the Thai RD could request transaction data from visa/mastercard networks Thailand, all of which must pass through the Thai banking system as part of cross border payments. Alternatively, the elephant turns out to to speak English and has a cousin who works for the RD and he rats on you.

How would RD know I was involved in a credit card transaction? Nobody in the process has my passport number?

 

Let's say that RD examines every single credit card transaction performed in Thailand (ignoring VPNs for the moment), how would they link any transaction to me? What piece of data would link the transaction to me?

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Danderman123 said:

How would RD know I was involved in a credit card transaction? Nobody in the process has my passport number?

 

Let's say that RD examines every single credit card transaction performed in Thailand (ignoring VPNs for the moment), how would they link any transaction to me? What piece of data would link the transaction to me?

The name and card number are enough to identify you to Visa/Mastercard, it belongs to you, that is undeniable. The issuing bank is is also known, which means all the details about you can be obtained by some means. Which piece of data links you to the transaction, tell me you're not really asking me that question...it's your card! 

[Danderman123]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The name and card number are enough to identify you to Visa/Mastercard, it belongs to you, that is undeniable. The issuing bank is is also known, which means all the details about you can be obtained by some means. Which piece of data links you to the transaction, tell me you're not really asking me that question...it's your card! 

You are not thinking this through.

 

Let's say my name is "John Smith". How is RD going to know that the John Smith who used a foreign credit card to buy an elephant is the same John Smith (me) who is applying to renew their retirement visa?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

You are not thinking this through.

 

Let's say my name is "John Smith". How is RD going to know that the John Smith who used a foreign credit card to buy an elephant is the same John Smith (me) who is applying to renew their retirement visa?

If the RD or anyone else has the card number, they can easily find out who it belongs to, all they have to do is ask Visa/Mastercard.

[jacko45k]

8 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

You are not thinking this through.

 

Let's say my name is "John Smith". How is RD going to know that the John Smith who used a foreign credit card to buy an elephant is the same John Smith (me) who is applying to renew their retirement visa?

They are going to cross reference every single foreign ATM card transaction in Thailand with some retirement extension (or TM30 or Tm47) database? It seems formidable and unlikely.  My only thought is if they can get foreign banks to give details of customers holding accounts registered to a Thailand address. Again, strikes me as difficult. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by jacko45k

[Morch]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

They are going to cross reference every single foreign ATM card transaction in Thailand with some retirement extension (or TM30 or Tm47) database? It seems formidable and unlikely.  My only thought is if they can get foreign banks to give details of customers holding accounts registered to a Thailand address. Again, strikes me as difficult. 

 

Don't most bank require a local address?

None of my banks abroad got any interest in my Thai address, some are even too lazy to forward stuff to my email/apps, never mind snail mail.

Even contact to one of our Thai phone numbers is almost unheard of.

[Danderman123]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If the RD or anyone else has the card number, they can easily find out who it belongs to, all they have to do is ask Visa/Mastercard.

I assume if RD has the card number, they have the name, as well.

 

My question remains: how would RD link "Mike Lister" who bought an elephant with a credit card to the "Mike Lister" who is applying for a visa extension?

[Ben Zioner]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If the RD or anyone else has the card number, they can easily find out who it belongs to, all they have to do is ask Visa/Mastercard.

I think that those people who have a home  address recorded on their card account might be safe, for a while at least.  I'd be screwed because my bank sends me my new card at the address recorded by immigration...

[jacko45k]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Don't most bank require a local address?

None of my banks abroad got any interest in my Thai address, some are even too lazy to forward stuff to my email/apps, never mind snail mail.

Even contact to one of our Thai phone numbers is almost unheard of.

I do not have a UK address and have non-Thai accounts using my Thailand one. An example would be the UK's National Savings.....

Many banks will support non local addresses, although a few have withdrawn the facility of late (Barclays and Santander I believe).

[Morch]

Just now, jacko45k said:

I do not have a UK address and have non-Thai accounts using my Thailand one. An example would be the UK's National Savings.....

Many banks will support non local addresses, although a few have withdrawn the facility of late (Barclays and Santander I believe).

 

Ok, thank you.

 

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

I assume if RD has the card number, they have the name, as well.

 

My question remains: how would RD link "Mike Lister" who bought an elephant with a credit card to the "Mike Lister" who is applying for a visa extension?

You can assume that if RD has the card number that they have the ability to find out ALL the details associated with the owner of that card, including name, date of birth, address and any other information that the bearer has provided to the card company or the issuing bank, be it written or in the form of a transaction. Your 16 digit card number uniquely identifies you. How is this possible? Because Visa/Mastercard needs BOT (or central bank) approval to operate in Thailand, or in any other country. BOT or the central bank has a relationship with the banks, Visa/Mastercard also provide BOT with financial analytics regarding card usage, average spend by nationality etc, this information ends up in TAT's hands and is even published in the media and discussed in this forum. So if you accept that there is a working relationship and linkage between the banks, the central bank and the RD, all one has to do is to ask the other......and that's what they do. There's then the law enforcement link that a police department or law enforcement agency can make a request for information as part of an investigation, do you really think they wont provide that data!

Edited December 23, 2023 by Mike Lister

[bkk6060]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

A question for the experts:

 

On January 1, I go to Chiang Mai and buy an elephant (or new car) with my US credit card. I don't supply my passport number, nor is my US credit card connected to Thailand in any way.

 

I sell the elephant for cash money.

 

How would RD track either of these transactions?

 

Assuming impossibility of tracing the cash flows, is either transaction legally tax evasion?

You will need a Resident Certificate to buy or sell an elephant and they will track any future elephant transactions from there.

[Danderman123]

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Don't most bank require a local address?

None of my banks abroad got any interest in my Thai address, some are even too lazy to forward stuff to my email/apps, never mind snail mail.

Even contact to one of our Thai phone numbers is almost unheard of.

My local bank in Thailand has my local address and passport number.

 

But my local bank is not involved in Thai purchases using a foreign credit card.

[Danderman123]

16 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

You will need a Resident Certificate to buy or sell an elephant and they will track any future elephant transactions from there.

okay, forget the elephant. What if I buy an expensive sofa using a foreign credit card? How does RD link that transaction to me?

[Danderman123]

28 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You can assume that if RD has the card number that they have the ability to find out ALL the details associated with the owner of that card, including name, date of birth, address and any other information that the bearer has provided to the card company or the issuing bank, be it written or in the form of a transaction. Your 16 digit card number uniquely identifies you. How is this possible? Because Visa/Mastercard needs BOT (or central bank) approval to operate in Thailand, or in any other country. BOT or the central bank has a relationship with the banks, Visa/Mastercard also provide BOT with financial analytics regarding card usage, average spend by nationality etc, this information ends up in TAT's hands and is even published in the media and discussed in this forum. So if you accept that there is a working relationship and linkage between the banks, the central bank and the RD, all one has to do is to ask the other......and that's what they do. There's then the law enforcement link that a police department or law enforcement agency can make a request for information as part of an investigation, do you really think they wont provide that data!

Great. If RD does that, they will find that the credit card user lives in the USA, and therefore is not me.

[Danderman123]

44 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

They are going to cross reference every single foreign ATM card transaction in Thailand with some retirement extension (or TM30 or Tm47) database? It seems formidable and unlikely.  My only thought is if they can get foreign banks to give details of customers holding accounts registered to a Thailand address. Again, strikes me as difficult. 

I think the real answer is that the RD hasn't thought this all the way through yet.

 

And, they will only track expenditures if there is a reason, ie someone pops up in the news, or reports a huge theft, I don't think this will be enforced more than the motorcycle helmet laws.

[jerrymahoney]

So this topic has morphed into, if and when the Thai Revenue regs, as hinted in the recent AMCHAM seminar is possible, require that ATM and credit cards as foreign based transactions are in fact reportable as income, how not to report them.
 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

15 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Pure conjecture. Why Thai RD would want to be inundated by a forest of paper, to prove a negative, is beyond me. Where are getting your information?

Mate - please take this the right way. 

The Thai bureacracy has absolutely no problems with mountains of paperwork - fact. They do not take any account of whether anything they do will cause more paperwork. Paperwork is endemic here in Thailand - I opened another bank account and I think I signed 20 pices of paper.

As it stands right now - meaning if the Thai RD does not clarify things and provide exemptions - any money remitted into Thailand from overseas is potentially taxable income - because they have no idea what the source is/was. Therefore, in order to know if it is taxable or not - in the current circumstances - tax residents will need to complete a tax return and claim it is not. However - and hopefully soon - the Thai RD will provide clarifications and exmptions (I hope) so that tax residents can 'know' what money is taxable and what is not - and therefore if they have to complete a tax return. 

There are many tax companies who have made media statements about this evolving issue - many of them previously provided in this thread - most of them state Expats will have to lodge a tax return and they recommend you come into their office (of course).