Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[quake]

2 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Here is reality:

 

the vast majority of Farangs living in Thailand have no idea about the new regs, would have no idea what to do about them, and probably do nothing unless something diffetent happens.

 

I'm pretty sure , something different is already going to happen.

in two days time. 

[jerrymahoney]

13 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Keyword is "intentionally".

Sure but how many replies were there on this and similar topics to wit:

 

How will they ever find out if ...?

[Mike Lister]

Laugh all you want but here's a partial list of some of the reports that BOT requires the banks to submit.

 

https://www.bot.or.th/content/dam/bot/fipcs/documents/FPG/2561/EngPDF/25610096.pdf

[proton]

4 hours ago, couchpotato said:

A slight exaggeration methinks.  Whats the real figure.

 

At one concert a month that's a 100 years.

Or at a concert every weekend that's still 25 years.

Or at a concert every day, that's still over 3 years

 

 

 

One a month lol, more like 25 a month at one time eg 7-4 concert every Saturday morning at Rama 2, then Vettethai concert at Praradeang in the afternoon followed by Sunday at Dusit zoo and Sunam Luang night Bazzar. Fm 95 concerts of often on Friday evenings, thats 20, then add on other concerts in the week, Tv stations and shows like MuM show, Fan Tv, Wat fairs and concerts at Army and naval bases etc. 1200 is over 25 years, slowed down a bit these days. The most fanatical followers are Japanese, never could keep up with them.

This week only been to 3, fm95 mega concert 6hours, Lamyai at Rama 2 pub and Takkedan at Wong Wian Yai

Edited December 30, 2023 by proton

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

48 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Laugh all you want but here's a partial list of some of the reports that BOT requires the banks to submit.

 

https://www.bot.or.th/content/dam/bot/fipcs/documents/FPG/2561/EngPDF/25610096.pdf

 

1. AFAICT, those regs only apply to info required to be provided by Thai entities, not just banks, but various other kinds of local financial entities.

 

2. None of that appears to involve financial entities outside of Thailand.

 

 

[Steve2UK]

38 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Laugh all you want but here's a partial list of some of the reports that BOT requires the banks to submit.

 

https://www.bot.or.th/content/dam/bot/fipcs/documents/FPG/2561/EngPDF/25610096.pdf

Mike, not wanting to argue, but it does read (as implied in the intro) like it's standard Central Bank monitoring of total flows by period and method & operator - with no identifying of individuals/amounts within those totals? - i.e. part of monitoring the overall flow/shape of the formal national economy?

[Mike Lister]

26 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

1. AFAICT, those regs only apply to info required to be provided by Thai entities, not just banks, but various other kinds of local financial entities.

 

2. None of that appears to involve financial entities outside of Thailand.

 

 

Of course, BOT only has jurisdiction over Thai banks.

 

Before going any further, this mini-debit is about the powers a central bank like BOT has and their capability to obtain/demand data and reports regarding financial transactions that take place within Thailand. Once again, financial transactions inside Thailand.

 

A major part of BOT's remit is to manage the Baht, in that respect they will see and indeed need to see, details of all foreign currency exchange transactions involving the baht, just like any central bank sees all transaction, related to their own currency.

 

Every card transaction involves, an Issuer, an issuer currency, a merchant, a merchant bank and a merchant currency and a settlement..... and of course a card owner. BOT will have the ability to see data on of all transactions conducted and settled within its borders and indeed, this information will be reported to BOT by the member banks and by the Visa/Mastercard networks when reporting usage statistics. At what level it is reported to BOT is another issue, monthly, quarterly, who knows, the point is, the data is available as is the reporting mechanism on ALL transactions and ALL cards. So when John Doe from Idaho, holidays in Bangkok and pays his hotel bill using a US bank issued card, that transaction is settled using the merchant in Bangkok, the merchants (Thai) bank, the card company network in Thailand and the Thai central bank when bank settlement is made (as well as the US bank etc)

Edited December 30, 2023 by Mike Lister
Clarity and spelling

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, Steve2UK said:

Mike, not wanting to argue, but it does read (as implied in the intro) like it's standard Central Bank monitoring of total flows by period and method & operator - with no identifying of individuals/amounts within those totals? - i.e. part of monitoring the overall flow/shape of the formal national economy?

Sure, see my subsequent post on this.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

41 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So when John Doe from Idaho, holidays in Bangkok and pays his hotel bill using a US bank issued card, that transaction is settled using the merchant in Bangkok, the merchants (Thai) bank, the card company network in Thailand and the Thai central bank when bank settlement is made (as well as the US bank etc)

 

In the example you use of a U.S. bank issued card here, typically, the transaction is going to be "settled" not by the local Thai bank, unless DCC is involved, but instead by the international VISA and MC card networks, which assign the applicable exchange rate.

 

I don't think any of us knows what level of detail the Thai bank processor for the local transaction has about the non-Thai aspects of those kinds of transactions. Nor is it clear, to me at least, that VISA and MC international would be required to report to Thailand on their details of non-Thai bank card transactions.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TravelerEastWest]

19 hours ago, stat said:

They will and cannot hit you at the source of the bank if your bank is not in Thailand. Not even the mighty IRS of the USA managed to deduct at source a capital gain of a share that arises anywhere in the world (Switzerland, Germany, Canada etc).

Interesting - I remember a while back around ten years ago maybe...  America was pressuring Swiss banks with a great deal of success... I think they were after big criminals and terrorists but normal people got caught up...

 

As a result, Swiss banks are not what they used to be...

[TravelerEastWest]

5 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

You. Are delusional that would require new laws to be made unenforceable and would be frowned upon globally! Thailand would be a laughing stock and pray tell me any countries in th world that taxes money at source 

And India used to require  tax clearance to leave the country after a one year stay.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Nor is it clear, to me at least, that VISA and MC international would be required to report to Thailand on their details of non-Thai bank card transactions.

 

The information appears to be available

 

Quote

International visitor spending in Bangkok in Thailand from January to October 2023

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/310420/international-visitor-spending-in-bangkok/

 

If the information can be broken ( as per the chart ) monthly. Then it must be able to be broken down even further, ncluding by individual cards.

 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

In the example you use of a U.S. bank issued card here, typically, the transaction is going to be "settled" not by the local Thai bank, unless DCC is involved, but instead by the international VISA and MC card networks, which assign the applicable exchange rate.

 

I don't think any of us knows what level of detail the Thai bank processor for the local transaction has about the non-Thai aspects of those kinds of transactions. Nor is it clear, to me at least, that VISA and MC international would be required to report to Thailand on their details of non-Thai bank card transactions.

 

Yes, if DCC is used though the process is very similar.

 

John from Idaho settles his bill at the Holiday Inn (HI) Bangkok using his Chase Manhattan Visa card, the bill is 35,000 baht but John chooses to pay using USD because that’s the home currency of his card (the effect of using DCC will be exactly the same).

 

John presents his card to the front desk who enters it into the machine and the transaction is approved and logged by Visa Thailand who issues a credit to the Hotel bank and a debit to Johns visa account for billing purposes. The transaction is also logged on the HI reservations and accounting system. A foreign currency exchange transaction has been performed so the HI bank must report this to BOT.

 

At end of day settlement, Visa nets all the transactions and pays or deducts from the various banks using the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) who credits the BOT account who in turn credits the HI bank account.  Visa will also report the foreign currency exchange in its reporting. (BOT needs to know how much currency has been traded for Baht and visa versa plus the FOREX needs this information also to adjust the value of the Baht).

 

In summary, details of Johns name and card number and his issuing bank, and all the data regarding his transaction, are known by the merchant, HI, by the HI’s bank and by BOT (if it wants to know).

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The information appears to be available

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/310420/international-visitor-spending-in-bangkok/

 

If the information can be broken ( as per the chart ) monthly. Then it must be able to be broken down even further, ncluding by individual cards.

 

Again, yes. I do know that Visa/Mastercard provides BOT and indirectly, the The National Office of Statistics, with card usage data but I don't know at what level.

[jerrymahoney]

You folks are looking at very hi-tech where the answer may be very lo-tech.

 

Note:

“Remittance of income into Thailand” is defined as any action in bringing the income sourced abroad into Thailand, including wiring money from a bank account, transferring money via e-banking, or physically carrying cash into Thailand.

 

However, the FAQ did not confirm whether spending money in Thailand from an offshore bank account, credit card, or debit card could be considered a remittance of income into Thailand.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/content/download/1175616/59807824/version//file/Technical-update-November-2023.pdf  Page 3

 

So what if Revenue says that these offshore ATM withdrawals and credit card transactions are an income  remittance into Thailand and DO have to be reported. And they also say: We do not have the mechanism, as yet, to track these individual transactions from ex-Thailand sources.

 

But  you are still required to report them as truthful on your tax form and, if you do not include them on your form, or you do not file a form if so required, then you are (intentionally)  in violation of the tax code.

Edited December 30, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

@Mike Lister I was talking in my prior comment about NON-DCC transactions being done here with home country bank cards, whereas you seems to be addressing DCC transactions.

 

In the case of a non-DCC transaction, for example, who's saying that it's VISA Thailand that's issuing a credit to the merchant as opposed to VISA or MC International outside of Thailand?

 

And while the local merchant and the local merchant bank will know, in the case of a debit card, the debit card number being used and the issuing bank, I'm not aware of anything that knowing that somehow gives them the broader knowledge of the card holder's linked home country bank account number, for example.

Edited December 30, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Again, yes. I do know that Visa/Mastercard provides BOT and indirectly, the The National Office of Statistics, with card usage data but I don't know at what level.

 

Sure

 

All I am suggesting is that if the information is available on a monthly basis ( Which it clearly is ) then the mechanism is probably in place to break that information down to weekly levels and daily levels.

 

It also suggests that it could also be broken down to individual card level.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

@Mike Lister You're saying all of the above, but I don't see any sources that verify / confirm that all the details you're laying out are in fact the case.

 

For example, who's saying that it's VISA Thailand that's issuing a credit to the merchant as opposed to VISA or MC International outside of Thailand, in the case of a non-Thai bank card being used for a non-DCC transaction?

 

And while the local merchant and the local merchant bank will know, in the case of a debit card, the debit card number being used and the issuing bank, I'm not aware of anything that knowing that somehow gives them the broader knowledge of the card holder's linked home country bank account number, for example.

I've set out the things that I have, based on my experience of working for banks, and EFTPOS in the past. That's not to say that experience is still 100% relevant and that parts of the processes haven't changed in some way based on the many variables. If you want me to prove all of these things, we move from being a debate and an explanation, into a research project which I'm not about to to engage in. You have a choice, you can either accept my explanation or you can challenge it with an alternative but asking me to prove my explanation and relieve you or anyone else of any research work or effort, aint going to happen. :) I know from previous debates here over many years that there is zero upside to me spending a lot of time and effort proving facts and supplying  sufficient links to meet everyone's satisfaction levels, what happens is, everyone goes quiet. 

 

But regarding your question about Visa Thailand vs Visa International: the transaction initially rests with visa Thailand because that's where the transaction took place and it's Visa Thailand that is approved by BOT to operate within Thailand's boundaries. I have no doubt that Visa Thailand hands off authentication to Visa International networks but that is likely to be seamless. One thing is certain and that is there will be no direct relationship between the POS terminal in the HI and Visa International, without an intermediary in the middle, even if that intermediary is seamless. Every central bank has its operating boundaries and controls what goes on within those boundaries, to different degrees. The Thai Baht is a restricted currency, no international entity is able to transact on the Baht, without a Thai bank or central bank approval. Thai banks act as agents of BOT, Visa Thailand will be the same.

 

 

[J Branche]

35 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I've set out the things that I have, based on my experience of working for banks, and EFTPOS in the past. That's not to say that experience is still 100% relevant and that parts of the processes haven't changed in some way based on the many variables. If you want me to prove all of these things, we move from being a debate and an explanation, into a research project which I'm not about to to engage in. You have a choice, you can either accept my explanation or you can challenge it with an alternative but asking me to prove my explanation and relieve you or anyone else of any research work or effort, aint going to happen. :) I know from previous debates here over many years that there is zero upside to me spending a lot of time and effort proving facts and supplying  sufficient links to meet everyone's satisfaction levels, what happens is, everyone goes quiet. 

 

But regarding your question about Visa Thailand vs Visa International: the transaction initially rests with visa Thailand because that's where the transaction took place and it's Visa Thailand that is approved by BOT to operate within Thailand's boundaries. I have no doubt that Visa Thailand hands off authentication to Visa International networks but that is likely to be seamless. One thing is certain and that is there will be no direct relationship between the POS terminal in the HI and Visa International, without an intermediary in the middle, even if that intermediary is seamless. Every central bank has its operating boundaries and controls what goes on within those boundaries, to different degrees. The Thai Baht is a restricted currency, no international entity is able to transact on the Baht, without a Thai bank or central bank approval. Thai banks act as agents of BOT, Visa Thailand will be the same.

 

 

I think sometimes we waste to much time on finite details.  Focus on what are your deductions, what expenses can you deduct. Rental property deductions and expenses. Get professional interpretation of Gift Tax (I believe this only benefits the receiver of the gift)(Education was an option)  If you have Health or Life Insurance with a Thai Company you can deduct up to a certain amount. Talk to highly respected Thai accountant to understand your potential tax bill. The income tax rate table (brackets) are based on Thai not Foreign Income.  If your girlfriend can work and contribute they will usually pay less tax.  Each tax payer is allowed the deductions and the Thai worker will usually be in the lower percentage tax brackets 5%, 10%, 15%.  Foreigners may reach the 15%, 20%, 25%, 30% brackets because of the foreign pay rates and sources.

 

Focus on if you have ability to grow and earn money in your home country.  I believe Thai Tax law is only for income brought into Thailand.

If you need X to live a year, transfer X to Thailand, invest in your home country and let it keep compounding.   There are many options available to be in compliance with Thai Tax Law.  I discourage posting on a public forum any options that may fall in a grey area.  I have heard a creative idea or two from others since the talk of this foreign income tax.  

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, J Branche said:

I think sometimes we waste to much time on finite details.  Focus on what are your deductions, what expenses can you deduct. Rental property deductions and expenses. Get professional interpretation of Gift Tax (I believe this only benefits the receiver of the gift)(Education was an option)  If you have Health or Life Insurance with a Thai Company you can deduct up to a certain amount. Talk to highly respected Thai accountant to understand your potential tax bill. The income tax rate table (brackets) are based on Thai not Foreign Income.  If your girlfriend can work and contribute they will usually pay less tax.  Each tax payer is allowed the deductions and the Thai worker will usually be in the lower percentage tax brackets 5%, 10%, 15%.  Foreigners may reach the 15%, 20%, 25%, 30% brackets because of the foreign pay rates and sources.

 

Focus on if you have ability to grow and earn money in your home country.  I believe Thai Tax law is only for income brought into Thailand.

If you need X to live a year, transfer X to Thailand, invest in your home country and let it keep compounding.   There are many options available to be in compliance with Thai Tax Law.  I discourage posting on a public forum any options that may fall in a grey area.  I have heard a creative idea or two from others since the talk of this foreign income tax.  

It was a diversionary discussion. It was not a debate about tax, it was a debate about the powers and reach of a central bank.

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I wasn't meaning you 

 

I was meaning the people that seem to moan that Thailand is all about double pricing and nothing is free.

 

As we both know, there is plenty in Thailand that is free.

 

Yes, like the SRT park in Bangkok, have to hire the bike though if you want to cycle, but you can walk round optionally, great excersise facilities (similar in many parks  other locations, like         and the cycle paths south of Hua Hin.)

 

By mentioning double pricing, I think it represents a disappointing factional attitude, for which I could not guess as a percentage, except much less than 100%. As some ticket sellers cringe a bit. Whilst others exude a different body language, the kind of posture that hopefully RD shall not have....

Edited December 30, 2023 by UKresonant

[UKresonant]

I found this quite an interesting view, for general comment on DTAs...

 

[Rampant Rabbit]

If only  this  thread could be merged with the "Do you believe in God and why"    I think we'd be onto a  winner

[Mike Teavee]

I did a Wise transfer yesterday (mate has had his bank account closed in the UK so wanted me to pass the money he had in it on to him) & it struck me that as the money shows up as an Intra-Bank transfer (not FTT / Foreign Transfer) have I really remitted it to Thailand? 

 

I gave the money to Wise in the UK and they paid me the money from their account in Thailand so technically no money has been remitted into Thailand. 

[The Cyclist]

14 hours ago, UKresonant said:

By mentioning double pricing, I think it represents a disappointing factional attitude, for which I could not guess as a percentage, except much less than 100%.

 

I mentioned double pricing, because it really gets some peoples knickers in a twist.

 

Yes it happens, but it is not something that I get irate about. As a way of explanation, the amount of double pricing that I come across, over the course of a year would be far less than the cost of a months Council tax in the UK.

 

Its all about personal perspective.

 

I chose to live here, I am not going to change anything in Thailand, so why mump and moan ? Accept it for what it is, warts and all, life becomes much more pleasurable and stress free.

 

Just like the new rule change starting tomorrow. I'm not getting my knickers in a twist. I have limited my exposure to potential Thai Tax. In due course I might have to go and get a TIN and file an annual tax return. No big deal, their Country their rules.

 

Certainly nothing ( at this stage ) to get excited about. It is what it is, and getting stressed about it isn't going to change it.

[foreverlomsak]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 AM, Mike Lister said:

an unusual letter arrives in the mail.

As my postman rarely delivers mail, even though I know it exists e.g. monthly bills, I would be highly unlikely to receive anything from the RD.

[foreverlomsak]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

I did a Wise transfer yesterday (mate has had his bank account closed in the UK so wanted me to pass the money he had in it on to him) & it struck me that as the money shows up as an Intra-Bank transfer (not FTT / Foreign Transfer) have I really remitted it to Thailand? 

 

I gave the money to Wise in the UK and they paid me the money from their account in Thailand so technically no money has been remitted into Thailand. 

Interesting question, but you'd still be "caught" by being potentially asked where did the money come from and did you earn it working.

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

Certainly nothing ( at this stage ) to get excited about. It is what it is, and getting stressed about it isn't going to change it.

REDUX My post 9 OCT 23 a hundred pages back:

 

But as long as there is some hiatus here, I would just like to note I have been on the receiving end of 2 doomsday scenarios:

 

1. Immigration Officer: "You farang -- you have retirement income of 65k per month. Show me your Thai tax return for your visa extension of stay showing that you paid tax on income of 65k monthly. 

 

2. Be careful mate.  That (65k) will bring you to their (RD) attention.  
... and it is always better to not get noticed by any Thai Govt person or office.

 

I wish you scaremongers were better coordinated.

 

Edited October 9 by jerrymahoney

Edited December 31, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

Interesting question, but you'd still be "caught" by being potentially asked where did the money come from and did you earn it working.

But If I haven't remitted anything (from overseas) to myself, why would they bother looking into my account?

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

14 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

REDUX My post 9 OCT 23 a hundred pages back:

 

But as long as there is some hiatus here, I would just like to note I have been on the receiving end of 2 doomsday scenarios:

 

1. Immigration Officer: "You farang -- you have retirement income of 65k per month. Show me your Thai tax return for your visa extension of stay showing that you paid tax on income of 65k monthly. 

 

2. Be careful mate.  That (65k) will bring you to their (RD) attention.  
... and it is always better to not get noticed by any Thai Govt person or office.

 

I wish you scaremongers were better coordinated.

 

Edited October 9 by jerrymahoney

 

I don't see an incongruence between 1 & 2 so not sure why "The Scaremongers" are  uncoordinated but have said since they introduced the 65K income method of getting an extension that people are opening themselves up to (potentially) being liable for Tax. 

 

Simple example, I use the 65K pm income method remitting income as it accrues & am from a country that doesn't have a DTA with Thailand... I have always been liable for tax on that income in Thailand, few (I'd bet next to no) Expats pay it. 

 

 

This is why some immigrations offices are now asking for a tax certificate (or equivalent) when doing extensions based on the 65K pm method. 

 

And that's not "Scaremongering" it's a simple fact...