Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

A member asked in another thread (now unfortunately closed):

 

"please explain how the Thai tax authorities can differentiate between income and savings in an Australian bank account".

 

The answer is, they can't and they won't, it's not their role to do that, that's your job!

 

YOU have to declare on a tax return, exactly what the funds represent, savings or income. If you say savings, and only you know, you must be prepared to prove that fact with documentation, if subsequently asked. @Lacessit

I have taken screenshots of every asset in Australia as at 31/12/2023, as proof of savings.

 

I don't have to declare anything on a tax return if I don't have a Thai tax number.

 

Until an IO tells me I need one to get my extension, or someone posts to that effect, I see no reason to get one.

 

Statements I am evading tax appear to be arguing in a circle.

 

[Danderman123]

2 hours ago, stat said:

I still think the group that should be concerned are residents that have 100K above in capital income, not so much the "average" pensioner that goes bar hoping (no disrespect in any way). If the guy is a bar owner he has to file IMHO anyway or is he working for free?

The "guy" in question is a bar manager, not an owner. 

 

More to the point, he is required to file a tax return as he lives in Thailand. But he has no idea about this requirement. I haven't found anyone who knows about the new rules.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

41 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I have taken screenshots of every asset in Australia as at 31/12/2023, as proof of savings.

 

I don't have to declare anything on a tax return if I don't have a Thai tax number.

 

Until an IO tells me I need one to get my extension, or someone posts to that effect, I see no reason to get one.

 

Statements I am evading tax appear to be arguing in a circle.

 

Nobody suggested you were/are evading tax. But posting threads and asking questions about tax evasion on AN Forum is against the rules, which is why the thread was closed.

 

How each member chooses to address the issue of tax in Thailand is their own very personal choice. I personally would not adopt your approach because I am more risk averse. I wouldn't want to do nothing and then several years hence, have an IO ask for my tax ID. After I'd satisfied the IO's request I' would have potentially opened myself to scrutiny by the TRD who is perhaps beginning to wonder why I've been in country fir so many years and only now obtaining a tax ID, what ever has he been doing for the past X years they might wonder. But that's just me, others mileage may vary.

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, stat said:

The question will be what accounting system to use: Lifo, Fifo etc. If one could chose that would be great.

The issue of commingled funds and the risk they carry has been on the table for many months. Para 69 says this about them:

 

69) Funds from various sources that are all contained in the same bank account are referred to as commingled funds. Trying to account for them separately can be difficult, unless you keep complete records that show the individual sources of those funds. Much of this comes down to individual discipline and the ability to retain and file receipts and statements.

 

70) Some tax authorities have policies regarding commingled funds, policies such as LIFO, (last in, first out) which is primarily an inventory management technique but could be used with commingled fund accounts. The UK says that capital and gain entering a mixed or commingled account, loses its identity and that any remittance from the fund, is income first, capital second. We are not aware of the TRD policy regarding commingled funds or even if one exists. If you hold funds in this way, the two options open to you currently are, keep detailed records that describe all the feeds into a commingled account, or separate the sources into their own accounts.

 

 

 

[OJAS]

13 hours ago, MistyBlue said:

This is not correct.  The UK state pension is taxed.  You might be getting confused with the method in which the tax is collected on a state pension, often through other streams of income.

 

In any event it is highly unlikely that any tax on the State Pension would be due at the Thai end, thanks to the exemptions and allowances listed in para 76 of Mike's guide. I have prepared a spreadsheet setting out how a ภ.ง.ด. 91 return might look like in my case, based on TRD's 2023 forms and the State Pension being my sole source of assessable income. The result is a negative figure - which is even before the 0% rate exemption up to 150k referred to in para 75 of Mike's guide comes into play!

 

In these circumstances I can now see no good reason why I should be expected to surmount the formidable bureaucratic roadblocks which the TRD have, in their infinite wisdom, chosen to place in my way as regards both obtaining a TIN initially and subsequently filing tax returns either online or in paper form.

 

Indeed, I wonder whether Article 23(3) of the UK/Thailand DTA could also be said to apply to those in receipt of UK company pensions where sufficient evidence exists of tax payments to HMRC? This could be an even more crucial factor in their case given that they are otherwise highly unlikely to be fully exempted at the Thai end.

 

[Mike Lister]

13 hours ago, MistyBlue said:

This is not correct.  The UK state pension is taxed.  You might be getting confused with the method in which the tax is collected on a state pension, often through other streams of income.

Let me backtrack on this by saying that UK State Pension MAY not be taxable, where there are no other income streams and the total falls within the Personal Allowance. Case in point moi! In some years,  my sole UK income is my UK State Pension which is less than the Personal Allowance hence it is not taxed. 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Nobody suggested you were/are evading tax. But posting threads and asking questions about tax evasion on AN Forum is against the rules, which is why the thread was closed.

 

How each member chooses to address the issue of tax in Thailand is their own very personal choice. I personally would not adopt your approach because I am more risk averse. I wouldn't want to do nothing and then several years hence, have an IO ask for my tax ID. After I'd satisfied the IO's request I' would have potentially opened myself to scrutiny by the TRD who is perhaps beginning to wonder why I've been in country fir so many years and only now obtaining a tax ID, what ever has he been doing for the past X years they might wonder. But that's just me, others mileage may vary.

The TRD could wonder all they want, it would take years for me to convert my savings into Thai baht and there would be proof every step of the way. Meantime, my pension payments can accumulate in an Australian account away from prying eyes.

 

I am risk averse too, my policy is to give ANY government department as little information as possible. Giving them data is like feeding piranhas.

[paddypower]

On 4/25/2024 at 10:26 AM, Dogmatix said:

 

Anyone who wants a TIN and is refused one face to face should ask the official to put that in writing or film him or her saying that.

🙂 in NST IO that would get you a ''dark influence'' warning. seriously, that is waaay to confrontational for Thailand, don't you think?

[paddypower]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I have taken screenshots of every asset in Australia as at 31/12/2023, as proof of savings.

 

I don't have to declare anything on a tax return if I don't have a Thai tax number.

 

Until an IO tells me I need one to get my extension, or someone posts to that effect, I see no reason to get one.

 

Statements I am evading tax appear to be arguing in a circle.

 

I'd equate not filing as the equivalent to doing 120 on the hi-way. enjoyable and minimal risk (except for keeping one foot near the brake).

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, paddypower said:

I'd equate not filing as the equivalent to doing 120 on the hi-way. enjoyable and minimal risk (except for keeping one foot near the brake).

There are signposts on highways that tell me what speed I should not exceed.

 

I have yet to see a sign post that says I must file a tax return in Thailand.

 

OTOH, there have been several posts where pensioners like myself have been told by Thai tax officials they don't need a TFN, let alone file a return.

 

Let them come for me, I am not going to make life easy for them.

[Mike Lister]

OK, each to their own. This thread is about providing answers and information, not mandating or dictating an approach.

[paddypower]

11 hours ago, Neeranam said:

In Thailand nowadays you can cash bitcoin easily, P2P. I wonder if there's any way the government can keep track of cryptocurrency transactions?

World wide, that is a WIP for tax authorities in most countries. Even the SEC hasn't managed to come to grips with crypto (excepting fraud). I plan on keeping some funds in crypto for 2 reasons, one is to protect part of my retirement capital (since it is in USD) from a devaluation in the Thai baht. The other is the total uncertainty about tax-ability of gains.

[JohnnyBD]

30 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The TRD could wonder all they want, it would take years for me to convert my savings into Thai baht and there would be proof every step of the way. Meantime, my pension payments can accumulate in an Australian account away from prying eyes.

 

I am risk averse too, my policy is to give ANY government department as little information as possible. Giving them data is like feeding piranhas.

I agree on giving the gov't as little information as possible or only what they request. Sometimes, too much information can make things worse. Also, many do not have the luxury of remitting only pre-2024 monies to live on. I'm fortunate to be able to do somewhat the same as you, in my case, keeping every year's income in separate accts, not remitting any monies this year while I'm a tax resident, keeping my 2024 income in my home country forever, and only remitting pre-2024 and 2025 income in 2025, when I'm not a tax resident. I'm sure many people are looking at ways to minimize their tax bills. I'm just trying to keep my stress level down and enjoy my remaining years. That's getting just a little bit harder. Good luck to all.

[4myr]

I am keeping a spreadsheet about the Thai tax rules. The status as of now as I see it

 

 

[OJAS]

Just come across this TRD note (apologies if it has already been referred to in this thread):

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

Page 5 sounds worrying though - seems to imply that ALL remitted income should be reported in tax returns, whether assessible or not.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Just come across this TRD note (apologies if it has already been referred to in this thread):

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

Page 5 sounds worrying though - seems to imply that ALL remitted income should be reported in tax returns, whether assessible or not.

 

 

 

Unless/until the tax return form is redesigned and reissued, there is nowhere on the form to report excluded or exempt income which I don't believe they want to see reported anyway.

[topt]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Unless/until the tax return form is redesigned and reissued, there is nowhere on the form to report excluded or exempt income which I don't believe they want to see reported anyway.

Mike I asked you in the tax guide thread to confirm if one should be looking at only the PND 90 if no Thai income from employment and not the PND 91. You have mentioned that you have filed on a number of occasions so can I ask which you used?

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, topt said:

Mike I asked you in the tax guide thread to confirm if one should be looking at only the PND 90 if no Thai income from employment and not the PND 91. You have mentioned that you have filed on a number of occasions so can I ask which you used?

Yes, I saw your question but was waiting to see how others respond, it's slightly telling that nobody has!

 

For my part, I have never used either form! During my past three filings, I have taken my numbers to the TRD office on a spreadsheet and sat with the TRD woman who entered them directly into the system. If you or others are going to file using paper based copies, you will of course need the correct form, otherwise no form of any kind is necessary because you can simple tell the officer. When the electronic filing is complete, she will print off a receipt stating who owes who how much and acknowledges that the return has been filed. The amount on the recioet needs to tally with your spreadsheet, otherwise don't sign. We'll leave the question out there to see if anyone does respond, now that it's been formally asked, just to see what is said.

[Mike Lister]

Somebody asked for the address of where to send the completed returns, my response to which was, your local District office rather than the head office in Bangkok which is not really geared up to receive large volumes of tax returns. There is also an issue with the mail service and its reliability. The TRD e-filing link below allows you to search for TRD approved agents in various parts of the country and they are authorised to send the return on your behalf. The agent search facility is under the heading of Representative Accounting Office.

 

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, OJAS said:

 

Not much use, I'm afraid, since it is all in Thai (for me at any rate), and a Google translation into English doesn't reveal any heading akin to Representative Accounting Office as far as I can tell.

 

I get an automatic translation into English using google, the Representative Accounting Office link is on the right hand side at the bottom of the page. You have to enter your location into the box before it will search and return a list of agents, if you tell me where you are located I'll do it for you..

[stat]

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The issue of commingled funds and the risk they carry has been on the table for many months. Para 69 says this about them:

 

69) Funds from various sources that are all contained in the same bank account are referred to as commingled funds. Trying to account for them separately can be difficult, unless you keep complete records that show the individual sources of those funds. Much of this comes down to individual discipline and the ability to retain and file receipts and statements.

 

70) Some tax authorities have policies regarding commingled funds, policies such as LIFO, (last in, first out) which is primarily an inventory management technique but could be used with commingled fund accounts. The UK says that capital and gain entering a mixed or commingled account, loses its identity and that any remittance from the fund, is income first, capital second. We are not aware of the TRD policy regarding commingled funds or even if one exists. If you hold funds in this way, the two options open to you currently are, keep detailed records that describe all the feeds into a commingled account, or separate the sources into their own accounts.

 

 

 

 

Your guide does not answer the questions what accounting system will be used Lifo, Fifo or percentage of funds for TRD, so the issue is completly open and no one knows. The documentation of feeds only help when you know which accounting method can/should be used. This is the main problem.

Edited April 27 by stat

[JohnnyBD]

3 hours ago, 4myr said:

I am keeping a spreadsheet about the Thai tax rules. The status as of now as I see it

 

 

Nice spreadsheet. I was just wondering why you say under the column File remitted income?, that for a TR regarding Savings pre-2024 or Income pre-2024 you have Yes, when those monies are not assessable and we are not required to report them. Am I misunderstanding your column title?

[UKresonant]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Unless/until the tax return form is redesigned and reissued, there is nowhere on the form to report excluded or exempt income which I don't believe they want to see reported anyway.

But to draw a line under things it would be useful to have an additional info box to at least list them so someone can't come back with a different view later. If noted and they are curious they can ask at the time of the filing. 

 

[sangtip2]

Can anyone recommend a CPA in the Pattaya area.     I think I will need some help filing my taxes. 

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, sangtip2 said:

Can anyone recommend a CPA in the Pattaya area.     I think I will need some help filing my taxes. 

If you can access the site in English using google translate, the TRD e-filing site contains links to businesses all over the country that are allowed to file tax returns electronically for clients and all them are tax and accountancy businesses. Look at the link below and then the bottom right hand corner of the first page, see Representative Accounting Offices and click on that, then enter your location.

 

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, stat said:

 

Your guide does not answer the questions what accounting system will be used Lifo, Fifo or percentage of funds for TRD, so the issue is completly open and no one knows. The documentation of feeds only help when you know which accounting method can/should be used. This is the main problem.

 

I agree that the method of accounting aspect is still open but I do not agree that the documentation of the feeder accounts is not important today, the fact the TRD accounting method is not known doesn't change that need.

 

If, for example, a person generates income from high interest savings,  equities investments and employment, and funds from each of those three areas are commingled into a single account, that person will understand and be able to prove, what amount each one contributed and when (assuming adequate documentation is retained).

 

If that person then remits X to Thailand, they are able to declare the source of those funds and provide a paper audit trail that confirms that.

 

At some point, the TRD will make it known what accounting method they utilise, in which case the documentation of the feeder accounts is essential. Or they may not. It may be that the TRD will not want that level of granularity and will be happy that in the event of an audit, the person can provide a paper audit trail and that is sufficient. Either way, the documentation relating to feeds is very important, either now or later.

[Mike Lister]

Attached below is member Guavaman's sample of how to complete a simple PND91 tax return.

 

500k-230366PIT91.pdf

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Unless/until the tax return form is redesigned and reissued, there is nowhere on the form to report excluded or exempt income which I don't believe they want to see reported anyway.

 

5 hours ago, OJAS said:

Just come across this TRD note (apologies if it has already been referred to in this thread):

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

Page 5 sounds worrying though - seems to imply that ALL remitted income should be reported in tax returns, whether assessible or not.

 

 

It does mention the apportionment method for the relief. (That method circumstantially reinforced for CGT etc maybe). 

 

So it would seem that you have to list and provide the tax paid on say all your pensions, and the credit relief will be proportional to the amount remitted.

So say perhaps (for simplicity example)

UK state pension £10k

UK Employer pension £15k

UK Civil Service .GOV £ 5k (only taxed in UK re-DTA)

Private pension 1 £1285

Private pension 2 £1285

 

£32570 (UK personal allowance £12570) - THB 1465650

 

So say 20% tax above p.a. = £4000

 

Remit say £20k - THB 900k 

 

Tax credit 61.4% of £4000=£2546 - THB 110.5 k credit relief available.

 

But there should be no tax on the GOV pension, but it would be needed for the Credit relief Calc?

 

So will the just say the Gov pension is placed at the bottom of the stack where they say your not being taxed, but that would (as mentioned in another post) it pushes everything else up the Thai taxation bands (also UK  .Gov pension could well exceed the Thai tax PA and zero bands..)

 

( Something similar suggesting apportionment was noted in the Norwegian question PDF back about p222 ish with the emphasis on avoiding double relief, in relation to the Personal allowances of each state).

 

It's Sunny here in Scotland currently, but God has still got the External Aircon set about 10C, Still,will go out for a wee while.  .

 

 

Edited April 27 by UKresonant

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I get an automatic translation into English using google, the Representative Accounting Office link is on the right hand side at the bottom of the page. You have to enter your location into the box before it will search and return a list of agents, if you tell me where you are located I'll do it for you..

 

Thanks, Mike, I live in Rayong.

 

Incidentally I've now come across this link which states that "In order to file a hard copy personal income tax return using form PND 90/91, taxpayers must do so at any Revenue Department Area Office" (under the "Submitting your tax return" heading).

 

https://franklegaltax.com/2023-tax-return-filing-in-thailand/

 

[Mike Lister]

35 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

Thanks, Mike, I live in Rayong.

 

Incidentally I've now come across this link which states that "In order to file a hard copy personal income tax return using form PND 90/91, taxpayers must do so at any Revenue Department Area Office" (under the "Submitting your tax return" heading).

 

https://franklegaltax.com/2023-tax-return-filing-in-thailand/

 

Here's a screen shot from the TRD e-filing system listing agents in your area. There's nothing in Rayong so I used Chonburi and Siracha, are these of any help?