‘No turning back’: how the Ukraine war has profoundly changed the EU

[heybruce]

59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Did you miss where I asked SPECIFICALLY about WESTERN countries? Instead you posted a list that had ZERO to do with my question which you actually posted, but apparently didn't read.

 

As for Korea, as no Russian troops were involved, to my knowledge, they were only doing the same thing as America is doing in Ukraine, and supplying military aid. Is it different when it's not America?

Did you not see Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Germany on the list?

 

BTW:  How many WESTERN countries has the US invaded since WWII?

[Thorgal]

41 minutes ago, Tug said:

Soo a country being invaded looted families being murdered wives and daughters being raped asks the free world to help it defend itself translates in your mind to the weapons industry and their shareholders making money hummm………how do you feel about the country that’s doing the invading raping and looting hummm………seems to me you are ok with that,am I mistaken?

Yes.

[heybruce]

59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yes, the American 1% has done very nicely from the continuous stream of conflicts the US has been involved in since WW2.

Sources?  I'm curious about how and where you got your breakdown of the assets of the top 1%, particular their defense stock investments.  I thought most of the obscenely rich were getting their money from software businesses.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I refer to the people in governments that vote for sending war material to the Ukraine so Ukrainian's can die to enrich the 1% that make the weapons, while remaining safely miles and miles behind the lines.

 

I myself only just missed out on participating in America's war in a far off Asian country, so I am not a stay at home safely person either. It ended for us when I was about to be posted there.

Don't worry.  If or when Ukraine gets tired of fighting for survival I'm sure it will notify the countries supporting it.

[heybruce]

49 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No. They were in the Soviet sphere ( given to them by Churchill and Roosevelt at the Yalta conference ) post WW2.

I'd have thought it was obvious I was referring to non soviet countries, but apparently not.

How many of those countries have you been to?  Did you ask any of them if they consider themselves western or Russian?

[heybruce]

45 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have forgotten nothing including how Churchill and Roosevelt gave the Soviets those European countries at Yalta.

Why lie when you can mislead.  Look into the status of the war at the time, with special attention to where Soviet forces were concentrated, then tell us what you expected to come out of the negotiations.

[heybruce]

24 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

States or not, they were in the Soviet sphere of influence, and controlled by Russian aligned governments.

Were Churchill and Roosevelt fooled by Stalin, or did they abandon those countries? I'm going for the latter. The Uk has a history of abandoning countries when it suits them, eg Palestine.

 

So perhaps you can inform us as to which western countries not in the Soviet sphere of influence were invaded by Russia post WW2.

And now you want to surrender Ukraine (and who knows what other countries) to Putin's empire building.

[Thorgal]

1 hour ago, candide said:

I hope for you that you are aware it's Russian propaganda and you do it on purpose, rather than naively diffuse it

 

I am aware that Russophobia is not yet categorized as per latest DSM5 within cluster B, between schizophrenia and ASPD with frequent repetitive delusional episodes. 

[heybruce]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

I am aware that Russophobia is not yet categorized as per latest DSM5 within cluster B, between schizophrenia and ASPD with frequent repetitive delusional episodes. 

Spent a lot of time in mental institutions?

[Tug]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

Yes.

Well your country is on the wrong side of history it’s a shame your government is allowing this slaughter of not only the Ukrainians but of your people as well.I’m rooting for the Ukrainians obviously but it’s sad to see the Russian guys getting killed all to satisfy one man’s vision.

[gearbox]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:56 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

What's wrong with these warmongers that they think a war in a foreign country is more important than any of the myriad problems afflicting the EU, such as the illegal immigration chaos in the Mediterranean?

Yes the Brussels unelected puppets are ruining Europe again. Sadly the fix is coming either from the far right or the far left. Last weekend one of these types won the Slovakia election. The interesting part would start if the far right wins either in France or Germany.

[Thorgal]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

You boast about the number of news sources you read yet you never post any links to support your claims and opinions.  That's ok when you're preaching to the converted, but it doesn't work here.

 

You like to throw out the name Nuland and suggest there is something sinister there.  There isn't.  Here is the most "sinister" thing I could find on Nuland, a discussion between her and Ambassador Pyatt in which it is clear that they would prefer that the pro-western opposition come out ahead in the protests.  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

 

That's it.  If you have anything more substantial please share it.  But use credible sources, don't claim you have superior knowledge and expect us to believe you.

I've nothing personal against Victoria Nuland.

 

To understand this conflict you have to research on the Bretton Woods agreement first.

There's also the (Halford John) Mackinder Heartland theory that seems to be deployed the last 10 years.

 

I read as well only unbiased Western as unbiased Russian media to better understand what's happening in reality. That's not a crime I think...

 

 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

States or not, they were in the Soviet sphere of influence, and controlled by Russian aligned governments.

Once again, absolute nonsense and factually incorrect.

 

There was never any concession by Churchill or Roosevelt that Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland should be considered part of the "Soviet sphere of influence".

 

As I stated previously Stalin agreed that, post WW2, there should be free elections held in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland (and also Romania and Bulgaria). An agreement that he did not keep. 

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Were Churchill and Roosevelt fooled by Stalin, or did they abandon those countries? I'm going for the latter. The Uk has a history of abandoning countries when it suits them, eg Palestine.

Imo those statements are not without substance. However, they are an altogether different conversation.

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

So perhaps you can inform us as to which western countries not in the Soviet sphere of influence were invaded by Russia post WW2.

As I stated above, there was no agreed "Soviet sphere of influence".

 

So far as Western countries invaded by the Soviet Union is concerned, as I and others have pointed out on umpteen occasions: Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Other nations in the Warsaw Pact may not have been occupied forcibly by Soviet military forces post WW2, but the installation of puppet governments could be seen as effectively an occupation.

Edited October 2, 2023 by RayC
Clarification

[Thorgal]

19 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Spent a lot of time in mental institutions?

No, trying to understand people when they ask me questions...

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, RayC said:

Once again, absolute nonsense and factually incorrect.

 

There was never any concession by Churchill or Roosevelt that Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland should be considered part of the "Soviet sphere of influence".

 

As I stated previously Stalin agreed that, post WW2, there should be free elections held in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland (and also Romania and Bulgaria). An agreement that he did not keep. 

 

Imo those statements are not without substance. However, they are an altogether different conversation.

 

As I stated above, there was no agreed "Soviet sphere of influence".

 

So far as Western countries invaded by the Soviet Union is concerned, as I and others have pointed out on umpteen occasions: Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Other nations in the Warsaw Pact may not have been occupied by Soviet military forces, but the installation of puppet governments could be seen as effectively an occupation.

Carry on your deflection without me. You are obviously not going to answer my question.

[RayC]

21 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Yes the Brussels unelected puppets are ruining Europe again. Sadly the fix is coming either from the far right or the far left. Last weekend one of these types won the Slovakia election. The interesting part would start if the far right wins either in France or Germany.

????It was just a matter of time before the EU got blamed (again).

 

Any number of convoluted conspiracy theories can be compiled but a simple fact remains: Russia invaded Ukraine.

[Thorgal]

22 minutes ago, Tug said:

Well your country is on the wrong side of history it’s a shame your government is allowing this slaughter of not only the Ukrainians but of your people as well.I’m rooting for the Ukrainians obviously but it’s sad to see the Russian guys getting killed all to satisfy one man’s vision.

I agree with you completely.

 

My country is on the wrong side of the history because my government decided to supply arms and money to Ukraine in a war that is not ours.

 

Some kids in my country can't afford a lunch at school.

University students can't pay their school fees.

Elder people (retirement) can't pay their rent, food, etc...

End the list is longer, but you get my point that we have our financial priorities for our own people instead of foreign conflicts with huge economic backlashes (energy prices after Nord stream 1/2 skyrocketed)

[Bkk Brian]

6 hours ago, Thorgal said:

The first referendum of Donbas was organized in 2014. Even Russia (Putin) was not in favor as it's not in line with the Minsk accords and the Ukrainian governing laws.

 

After the start of the Russian special military operation (2022) there was a need to re-organize the new referendum/elections to be able to work together between Donbas/Kherson/Zaporizhzhia regions and the Russian government. 

 

Schools and churches were opened again, buildings were renovated, electricity, gas and water was again available thanks to Russian intervention, except that the Ukrainian (+8 years) shelling was is not yet stopped (even constitutionally).

 

Most UN countries were against these latest referendums due to the unlawful character with respect to Ukrainians' Constitutional laws. Zelensky was asked to participate in these elections. He refused to participate in the negotiations for the local elections...

Thanks for the Kremlin talking points, in future please supply a link to them. There's so much false info there I think you've just thrown what you can against the wall to see what sticks.

[RayC]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Carry on your deflection without me. You are obviously not going to answer my question.

And cue the usual deflection card.

 

I have no idea what is your question?

 

My question to you is are you going to continue to attempt to rewrite historical facts?

[Thorgal]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Thanks for the Kremlin talking points, in future please supply a link to them. There's so much false info there I think you've just thrown what you can against the wall to see what sticks.

I've checked again, and everything still sticks pretty well...

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

I've checked again, and everything still sticks pretty well...

Nothing sticks without a credible link:

 

"Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source."

[sirineou]

10 hours ago, transam said:

It is Putin in person that has failed, not the Russian people, they enjoyed their mixing with the West to have a better life, now their wannabe "King" has taken them back to the cold war era, well done King Vlad..........????

That's your opinion and I respect it , but don't agree with it. 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by sirineou

[heybruce]

24 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

I've nothing personal against Victoria Nuland.

 

To understand this conflict you have to research on the Bretton Woods agreement first.

There's also the (Halford John) Mackinder Heartland theory that seems to be deployed the last 10 years.

 

I read as well only unbiased Western as unbiased Russian media to better understand what's happening in reality. That's not a crime I think...

How does any of that change the fact that this is a war of choice started by Russia with its invasion of Ukraine?

[Thorgal]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

How does any of that change the fact that this is a war of choice started by Russia with its invasion of Ukraine?

The UAF shelling on civilians of Donbas region started before 2014 and didn't stop.

 

The Minsk accords were created to give time to UAF to build trenches, bunkers, logistic facilities and defensive lines for the coming war. This was admitted by Merkel and Hollande.

 

You stab a bear in the back is one thing.

You stay there with your knife alone is plain stupid...

Edited October 2, 2023 by Thorgal

[gearbox]

30 minutes ago, RayC said:

????It was just a matter of time before the EU got blamed (again).

 

Any number of convoluted conspiracy theories can be compiled but a simple fact remains: Russia invaded Ukraine.

Why would I blame EU...I blame the unelected Brussels sprouts who act against the interests of the EU.

 

I have an EU passport as well, curious to find out how many of the warmongering trolls here urging EU to get more involved are EU citizens.

 

It is a simple fact that Russia invaded Ukraine, another simple fact is EU is a big loser as long as this war goes on.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

The UAF shelling on civilians of Donbas region started before 2014 and didn't stop.

 

The Minsk accords were created to give time to UAF to build trenches, bunkers, logistic facilities and defensive lines for the coming war. This was admitted by Merkel and Hollande.

 

You stab a bear in the back is one thing.

You stay there with your knife alone is plain stupid...

"The UAF shelling on civilians of Donbas region started before 2014 and didn't stop."

 

Like I said, nothing of yours sticks without credible links:

 

Civilian casualties in Donbas from 2014 in both government controlled areas and in territory controlled by the self-proclaimed 'republics'

 

https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related civilian casualties as of 31 December 2021 (rev 27 January 2022) corr EN_0.pdf

[sirineou]

"Leaked U.S. strategy on Ukraine sees corruption as the real threat "

"10/02/2023 05:00 AM EDT "

"Biden administration officials are far more worried about corruption in Ukraine than they publicly admit, a confidential U.S. strategy document obtained by POLITICO suggests.

The “sensitive but unclassified” version of the long-term U.S. plan lays out numerous steps Washington is taking to help Kyiv root out malfeasance and otherwise reform an array of Ukrainian sectors. It stresses that corruption could cause Western allies to abandon Ukraine’s fight against Russia’s invasion, and that Kyiv cannot put off the anti-graft effort."

 

"Ukrainian graft has long been a concern of U.S. officials all the way up to President Joe Biden. But the topic was deemphasized in the wake of Russia’s February 2022 full-scale invasion, which Biden has called a real-life battle of democracy against autocracy. "

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/02/biden-admin-ukraine-strategy-corruption-00119237

[Thorgal]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

"The UAF shelling on civilians of Donbas region started before 2014 and didn't stop."

 

Like I said, nothing of yours sticks without credible links:

 

Civilian casualties in Donbas from 2014 in both government controlled areas and in territory controlled by the self-proclaimed 'republics'

 

https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related civilian casualties as of 31 December 2021 (rev 27 January 2022) corr EN_0.pdf

Many ethnic Russians from Donbas fled to Russia since 2014.

Decrease of Donbas causalities is due to people living in bomb shelters (caves) and counterattacks of it's own militia.

 

Show me one US state that bombed for +8 years it's own people because of their ethnicity in full impunity.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

Many ethnic Russians from Donbas fled to Russia since 2014.

Decrease of Donbas causalities is due to people living in bomb shelters (caves) and counterattacks of it's own militia.

 

Show me one US state that bombed for +8 years it's own people because of their ethnicity in full impunity.

More unsubstantiated false claims

[fasteddie]

How the West Brought War to Ukraine

Edited October 3, 2023 by fasteddie