Why foreigners should not be worried by the new modification to the revenue code in Thailand

[ChaiyaTH]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

How on Earth will they be able to keep up with P2P transfers on exchanges like Binance?

It's easy to get crypto debit cards from other countries and use them in Thailand or any country around the world. 

It's again more about the legal aspect, if it would be a criminal thing to hide it, and even they just find 1 dollar, it's not the tax of the dollar you worry about but the jail time consequences. 

Doubt any countries let alone banks or other providers would just start sharing all their info with Thailand. I mean, I doubt as much that the average western country looks into accounts in Cambodia or wherever, if it's not insane amounts.

 

However technology and new money systems might change this within a decade. That is what one should fear hiding money while having to pay tax. I prefer legally not paying tax / minimizing it.

Edited October 2, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[tgw]

10 hours ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

Very relevant comment. I suggest Alan Lonie from Asia Accounts.

can you comment on all transfers from abroad being taxed ?

[AlexRich]

10 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I disagree with several of the points/claims made by the OP.

 

IMO there is no need to lodge a tax return in Thailand, unless you have an income that is 'taxable' in Thailand and you have to pay tax. Just because you are a tax resident does not mean you have to lodge a tax return.  Is the OP claiming that every Thai citizen currently lodges a tax return every year. No they do not - because the majority of Thais do not earn over 150K Baht per year (and many do not bother).

 

IMO unless a tax resident or citizen is required to pay taxes, then there is no need to lodge a tax return.

 

Yes I could be wrong - but if Thailand demands all Expat tax residents who do not work here (those retired or married without a work permit) have to lodge a tax return, but not all Thais have to lodge a tax return who are working, that will result in a wave of complaints about racial discrimination. Mine will be one of the first they get.

 

In the UK if the revenue (HMRC) send you a tax return you have to complete and send it on time irrespective of whether you have a tax liability or not. 

 

There have been numerous news articles about people being sent £1,500 fines and penalties for failing to send a return, when they had no tax liability in the first place! One guy was homeless! 

 

I'm afraid that expats have plenty to worry about, irrespective of what is said in the op piece above. 

 

Perhaps the smartest move for the mobile expat is to live under 180 days in Thailand and the rest of the time in a low tax jurisdiction. For those with families and jobs it is much more difficult. 

 

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

This will affect wealthy Thais, e.g. who have foreign capital gains or foreign income (except W2) in the US for which they don't pay taxes in the US assuming their own governments will tax them. However, earlier they could relocate the prior years gains into the current year without paying any taxes in the US or Thailand. That loophole is closed. As an American or permanent resident, I assume you pay your taxes in the US for your worldwide income and there will be no further taxes. For other nationalities, I have no idea. If they are already avoiding paying taxes in any countries will be subject to Thailand taxes. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[Moonlover]

9 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Most hilarious thread for a long time. 

Isn't it just. And this is the result of some professional trying to tell us all not to worry! It's a hoot.

[Gottfrid]

17 hours ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

Dot ask me what will happen, this is Thailand and you never know.  ????

So, that about sums it up then. If you started with that, you would have saved me some time.

[bob smith]

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I doubt they will target foreigners, it's the Thais they're after. 

Yep.

 

it remains to be seen how this will be implemented properly but I don’t think they would risk the negative backlash and exodus that would ensue taxing foreigners on their income earned abroad.

 

it would be the biggest case of shooting themselves in the foot that Thailand has ever seen..

[flexomike]

12 hours ago, dingdongrb said:

As I asked and will question again, why even have pensions direct deposited into a Thai bank?

Because I need it for living expenses 

[freeworld]

This is many years ago now.

 

One year I had brought some income into Thailand which I thought was subject to tax in Thailand.

 

I went to my nearest tax office, quite friendly people, and they did not understand what I wanted to do. This was in about October month so they looked at my bank book with incoming deposits and suggested to sum up the whole lot of deposits and fill in the tax form and pay tax. I said no thats not how it works, I want to pay tax only on the income I had earned and brought into the country the same year it was earned and explained again. They were confused so sent me to another tax office where I spoke to a manager. They understood, took copies of all the relevant doc, i handed it over to them and they filled in the tax forms and I ended up paying something like 400 baht tax.

 

All in all it was quite a pleasant experience and nothing like the suspicion, grilling and unfriendly attitude of tax people in my home country.

Edited October 3, 2023 by freeworld

[Pattaya57]

Putting aside how rediculous it is that people think sending your already taxed savings by bank transfer will be taxed again by Thailand, tax years differ between countries so it's not practical to prove tax already paid

 

Thai tax year is calender year and 2024 tax filing must be done by 31 March 2025. However Australia tax year is 1 July 2024 to 30 June 2025 and tax filing must be done by 31 May 2026. So any income earned in July 2024 will not be taxed in Aus until May 2026, 14 months after Thailand wants proof that we paid tax. 

 

The whole thing has to be a misunderstanding otherwise it makes a mockery of the double tax agreements Thailand has with 61 countries. 

[ChaiyaTH]

7 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Perhaps the smartest move for the mobile expat is to live under 180 days in Thailand and the rest of the time in a low tax jurisdiction. For those with families and jobs it is much more difficult. 

No reason at all to live the rest of the time in a low tax juridisction, you can simply live under 180 days in 2 countries and use a third as tax residency, with effectively zero tax. You can bet money on that many people will do this too, if Thailand enforces this. 

From that point onwards, Thailand will go downhill only faster than in the past 10 years. Because people will over time likely stop going to Thailand entirely, or only for a few weeks a year, if being forced out most of the year, due to this. So let's see what the monkies decide.

Edited October 3, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[dingdongrb]

1 hour ago, flexomike said:

Because I need it for living expenses 

......and yet I use the money I pull from my USA bank using an ATM here in Thailand for my living expenses. 

 

Your reply makes no sense!

[Moonlover]

13 hours ago, dingdongrb said:

11 hours ago, scorecard said:

Point taken but for some older folks it's very convenient and consistent and the pensioner doesn't need to instigate further actions.

 

13 hours ago, dingdongrb said:

How is having your pension in your home country or another bank outside of Thailand inconvenient? 

 

Further (difficult) action? -Hmmmmm

 

1) Open new account

2) Contact current pension administrator and change deposit info

 

 

The answer to your question is obvious @dingdongrb and it's already been answered:

 

'The pensioner doesn't need to instigate further actions'.

 

Whilst one is fit and healthy and has their smarts about them, transferring their own pensions from abroad is easy. I've been doing it myself for years.

 

But I've always had this thought in the back of my mind. "What if something happens rendering me unable carry out those tasks. How does my wife get hold of the funds that we need to live on?''

 

And that is why I have now switched to direct payments into my Krungsri account. I'm 77 yrs now, still fit and healthy in body & mind, but one never knows what's lurking just around the corner.

 

The modern buzz words would be 'future proofing' I guess.

[PJ71]

26 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

No reason at all to live the rest of the time in a low tax juridisction, you can simply live under 180 days in 2 countries

Not very convienient if you have a family / kids art school etc,

[dingdongrb]

16 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

The answer to your question is obvious @dingdongrb and it's already been answered:

 

'The pensioner doesn't need to instigate further actions'.

 

Whilst one is fit and healthy and has their smarts about them, transferring their own pensions from abroad is easy. I've been doing it myself for years.

 

But I've always had this thought in the back of my mind. "What if something happens rendering me unable carry out those tasks. How does my wife get hold of the funds that we need to live on?''

 

And that is why I have now switched to direct payments into my Krungsri account. I'm 77 yrs now, still fit and healthy in body & mind, but one never knows what's lurking just around the corner.

 

The modern buzz words would be 'future proofing' I guess.

If I have any health issues or die or for some reason locked out of my USA account my better half could use my BKK Bank debit card and draw funds from the 800k I keep there for my retirement extension.

 

Besides that I do have extra funds (above the 800k) in my BKK Bank there just for any unexpected emergencies (like the 160k THB I used last year for my stent operation).

 

'Prepare for the unexpected'.........duhhhhhh, it's not rocket science.

 

'Old age' should not be a reason.

[Moonlover]

5 minutes ago, dingdongrb said:

If I have any health issues or die or for some reason locked out of my USA account my better half could use my BKK Bank debit card and draw funds from the 800k I keep there for my retirement extension.

 

Besides that I do have extra funds (above the 800k) in my BKK Bank there just for any unexpected emergencies (like the 160k THB I used last year for my stent operation).

 

'Prepare for the unexpected'.........duhhhhhh, it's not rocket science.

 

'Old age' should not be a reason.

Not everyone is in your 'lofty' position! Try being a little less arrogant and show some respect for other people's situations.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Moonlover

[dingdongrb]

5 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Not everyone is in your 'lofty' position! Try being a little less arrogant and show some respect for other people's situations.

 

If folks cannot prepare and fend for themselves then maybe they should not have ventured far from mommy's skirt. Bye...Have a great day..... Cheers!

[hotandsticky]

5 minutes ago, dingdongrb said:

If folks cannot prepare and fend for themselves then maybe they should not have ventured far from mommy's skirt. Bye...Have a great day..... Cheers!

 

Do you not have an 'insincerity' emoji that you could add to your posts.

[DrJack54]

16 minutes ago, dingdongrb said:

If I have any health issues or die or for some reason locked out of my USA account my better half could use my BKK Bank debit card and draw funds from the 800k I keep there for my retirement extension.

Think you should double check your plan.

Often discussed in "banking finance" forum 

[hotandsticky]

4 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Think you should double check your plan.

Often discussed in "banking finance" forum 

He should certainly have a back-up plan if Plan A should fail for any reason.

[Neeranam]

10 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

It's again more about the legal aspect, if it would be a criminal thing to hide it, and even they just find 1 dollar, it's not the tax of the dollar you worry about but the jail time consequences. 

Doubt any countries let alone banks or other providers would just start sharing all their info with Thailand. I mean, I doubt as much that the average western country looks into accounts in Cambodia or wherever, if it's not insane amounts.

 

However technology and new money systems might change this within a decade. That is what one should fear hiding money while having to pay tax. I prefer legally not paying tax / minimizing it.

Indeed, and there's a huge difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. 

Many I speak to seem to think crypto is under the radar, when in fact it is the opposite, every transaction is there on the blockchain. 

 

[DrJack54]

5 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

He should certainly have a back-up plan if Plan A should fail for any reason.

Off topic ...however many farang here think their long term partner/wife can use ATM to withdraw funds upon farang checking out.

 

Get away it?  Perhaps.

illegal? Yes 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by DrJack54

[Neeranam]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Off topic ...however many farang here think their long term partner/wife can use ATM to withdraw funds upon farang checking out.

 

Get away it?  Perhaps.

illegal? Yes 

 

My wife would legally get everything in my bank accounts if I die.

[DrJack54]

Just now, Neeranam said:

My wife would legally get everything in my bank accounts if I die.

Granted reasonably quick if married.

 

Many are not. Me same lovely partner for 11 years not married.

Her access to my 800b+ held in Thai bank account in my name only is an issue.

A WILL is one option

 

 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, DrJack54 said:

Granted reasonably quick if married.

 

Many are not. Me same lovely partner for 11 years not married.

Her access to my 800b+ held in Thai bank account in my name only is an issue.

A WILL is one option

 

 

If you are gay, it's essential to write a will. 

[Neeranam]

There are going to be a lot of 'donations' to temples next year!! 

[DrJack54]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

If you are gay, it's essential to write a will. 

Mental note to self.

Never reply to fools

[Joebuzzz]

19 hours ago, freeworld said:

It does not matter what visa you have, it is tax residence which matters with tax. 180 days and more residing in Thailand one is tax resident.

I believe what the question actually was, is ..... "If my income is a government retirement pension/social security, and is NOT TAXABLE in my country, will I have to pay taxes on it here?"

If the Thai government is going to tax my social security, which is not of a sufficient amount to be taxed in America, will I have to pay taxes on it here?

If so, as I've stated elsewhere, I'm outta here.  It's just the last straw.  There are too many other negatives that are required to tolerate.  Example:  Phil-Health, top tier, $300 a year.  Happy to have ya.  Speak English nationwide at a large percentage, cost of living, etc.  Too many negatives here already.  Next .... taxes, next $100K insurance at $700 a month at 70 yrs. old? 

[retiree]

5 minutes ago, Joebuzzz said:

tax my social security,

Social Security is explicitly excluded from Thai taxation under the Thai - US DTA.   Note, however, that every country's DTA has its own rules for handling of other types of state and private pensions (I think the Brits are particularly unhappy about this).

 

> Speak English nationwide at a large percentage, 

You say that as though it's a good thing ????

 

[hotandsticky]

40 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Off topic ...however many farang here think their long term partner/wife can use ATM to withdraw funds upon farang checking out.

 

Get away it?  Perhaps.

illegal? Yes 

 

Of course it is illegal.

 

Nonetheless, the alternative of incurring legal fees (maybe 30k) to obtain Probate makes the ATM - or preferably online banking route - more attractive.

 

Personally, and fully accepting the illegality, I would say bo11ocks to illegality - my partner is the legal beneficiary of those funds (there is backup Will to that effect) and getting access to them in the most expedient and cost-effective is my major concern.