Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

The Jerusalem Post has more details.  Seems Israeli PM was trying to show which countries have made a peace agreement with Israel. 

 

But the map provoked anger as Palestinian territories were not shown.  Understandable that would be inflammatory.

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189

Why? Have the Palestinians territories made a peace agreement with Israel?

 

There is a hamas supporter in the US congress that has a map in her office that does not show Israel.

 

[deejai33]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Why? Have the Palestinians territories made a peace agreement with Israel?

 

There is a hamas supporter in the US congress that has a map in her office that does not show Israel.

 

I can believe there are people who have maps that do not acknowledge Israel as a country.  As you say, Hamas surely and others.

 

But Israel is a member of United Nation, is treated as a nation by many countries.   OK. Good.

 

Similarly Palestine is a country, recognized by 139 UN members (wikipedia: palestine).

 

The israeli PM should have shown a map with Palestine on it too.

 

If palestine does not have a state, where do 7m+ palestinians go ? 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by deejai33

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

I can believe there are people who have maps that do not acknowledge Israel as a country.  As you say, Hamas surely and others.

 

But Israel is a member of United Nation, is treated as a nation by many countries.   OK. Good.

 

Similarly Palestine is a country, recognized by 139 UN members (wikipedia: palestine).

 

The israeli PM should have shown a map with Palestine on it too.

 

If palestine does not have a state, where do 7m+ palestinians go ? 

 

 

 

 

 

Such maps are routinely posted on these topics (these ones included), guess that would fall under 'others'.

Again, you're trying to make much of relatively minor incident.

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

I can believe there are people who have maps that do not acknowledge Israel as a country.  As you say, Hamas surely and others.

 

But Israel is a member of United Nation, is treated as a nation by many countries.   OK. Good.

 

Similarly Palestine is a country, recognized by 139 UN members (wikipedia: palestine).

 

The israeli PM should have shown a map with Palestine on it too.

 

If palestine does not have a state, where do 7m+ palestinians go ? 

 

 

 

 

 

The article is a month old. Do you think the map is what sparked the atrocities perpetrated by hamas, and if so, does that justify hamas' actions? 

[deejai33]

42 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

The article is a month old. Do you think the map is what sparked the atrocities perpetrated by hamas, and if so, does that justify hamas' actions? 

I do not think it was the trigger for Hamas's attrocities.  

 

On it's own, the map does not justify Hamas's actions.  Ofcourse not.  

 

I posted the map as I first found it on the Ynet news site, refered to by Mr Morch.   I thought it must be 'fake news', not real, but later I found it was not disputed and is actually what the Israeli PM showed the UN.

 

However if the map indicates the israeli governments intention to never have a Palestinian state, or never to have equal rights for Palestinians within a single state, then I can see it would make Palestinians angry.  

 

I'm focussed on learning about the Palestinian-Israel conflict.  And on on positive ways forward.   

 

The israeli PM, Hamas, Palestinian PA leader, USA stance, all seem to be a problem, a hurdle to a viable peace.   

 

I'm trying to appreciate what all sides of the conflict see.  This conflict has gone on all of my life.  

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by deejai33

[deejai33]

45 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Such maps are routinely posted on these topics (these ones included), guess that would fall under 'others'.

Again, you're trying to make much of relatively minor incident.

 

 

 

OK.

 

I was surprised to see it, thought surely it was fake.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

I do not think it was the trigger for Hamas's attrocities.  

 

On it's own, the map does not justify Hamas's actions.  Ofcourse not.  

 

I posted the map as I first found it on the Ynet news site, refered to by Mr Morch.   I thought it must be 'fake news', not real, but later I found it was not disputed and is actually what the Israeli PM showed the UN.

 

However if the map indicates the israeli governments intention to never have a Palestinian state, or never to have equal rights for Palestinians within a single state, then I can see it would make Palestinians angry.  

 

I'm focussed on learning about the Palestinian-Israel conflict.  And on on positive ways forward.   

 

The israeli PM, Hamas, Palestinian PA leader, USA stance, all seem to be a problem, a hurdle to a viable peace.   

 

I'm trying to appreciate what all sides of the conflict see.  This conflict has gone on all of my life.  

 

 

But only one side laughs and brags about killing babies. 

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

But only one side laughs and brags about killing babies. 

 

In general, you are correct. Reveling at such things is more the Palestinians' thing. Pin in culture, on oppression or whatever - it's still there. As far as Israelis go, I think even when there are such reactions, they are usually less 'celebratory'.

 

There was one infamous instance in which such expressions of hate and vileness were expressed - which resulted in wide condemnations in Israel, and (minor) penalties for actions. As can be expected, these were hardcore, right-wing religious zealots from the illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank:

 

Israeli settlers at a wedding party cheer burning of Palestinian baby

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israeli-settlers-wedding-palestinian/

 

Israel convicts 7 over wedding where murdered Palestinian baby was mocked

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-convicts-7-over-wedding-where-murdered-palestinian-baby-was-mocked-2022-04-27/

 

But horrid as this may be, it also highlights that in Israel, this not a widely accepted behavior. Legal and public reactions being very different from the jovial street celebrations and distributing of sweets, customary among Palestinians after 'successful' terrorist attacks (nevermind the scenes in Gaza streets on 7/10).

 

I'm sure that there were other such incidents (if less headline makers) among the same 'crowd'. But maybe the point is that if one can clearly recall a specific one goes toward demonstrating how uncommon, or unacceptable this is.

[TimeMachine]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

If someone raped your daughter you would want to kill them, or at least beat them bloody, and perhaps rape them with a broomstick and if I was on the jury, you would not be convicted. Many people would see it as justified, or at the very least understandable. 

 

But if you tied him up and raped and killed his daughter, cut the baby out of his pregnant wife and killed them both, then killed him and burned down the neighborhood, all the while laughing on video tape, then no, you don't want me on the jury. 

 

This is the situation.

 

 

Sure. There is no rule to knowing what is correct reasoning of morality.  You have given your reaction to your example, but not all would agree to conclude like you. I used to use the term common sense, but can't anymore. I would think it be common sense not to have Joe Biden as President of the most powerful nation on the planet. But he is says I am insane or the lines are moving.

[Yellowtail]

41 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Sure. There is no rule to knowing what is correct reasoning of morality.  You have given your reaction to your example,...

It was not my example, it was your example. 

41 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

...but not all would agree to conclude like you.

Not all, but I think most westerners would agree, Here's what I said:

 

"If someone raped your daughter you would want to kill them, or at least beat them bloody, and perhaps rape them with a broomstick and if I was on the jury, you would not be convicted. Many people would see it as justified, or at the very least understandable. 

 

But if you tied him up and raped and killed his daughter, cut the baby out of his pregnant wife and killed them both, then killed him and burned down the neighborhood, all the while laughing on video tape, then no, you don't want me on the jury. 

 

This is the situation."

 

Do you not agree? 

 

 

41 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

 

I used to use the term common sense, but can't anymore. I would think it be common sense not to have Joe Biden as President of the most powerful nation on the planet. But he is says I am insane or the lines are moving.

Common sense went out with "higher" education.

[TimeMachine]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

it was your example

Not completely , you put extra detail. 

No I don't completely agree with the premise of what you are saying, because the Israel  situation is not a single daughter being raped of mine. Or the repetitive atrocity of your example. It involves something far more reaching and involving many more people who are revengeful  and atrocities being perpetrated on both sides most likely that we can know mostly sketchy details of.

 

So , we have conflicting views over a small discussion. Imagine if we were neighbours how life difficult could be. And the solution. I agree with you or you agree with me. No, not likely. The solution, I don't know. Personally , I would move out and buy another house. But Israelis and Palestinians probably don't have that option. I find different races/cultures have slightly different mindsets and handle disputes differently. I think both sides are making mistakes and highlighting the disgusting nature of humanity. 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

Let's say the Israeli government has done something to upset Hamas. I mean before the Hamas attack. Something that made Hamas do what they did. What were those things? Are Hamas explaining well enough? Is it land issue? Or religious issue? All of the above? At the moment I see both sides capable of killing in retaliation. So one retaliation is justified? Which one? Both? 

Is 30 years of oppression sufficient justification for Hamas, and is 30 years of Palestinians refusing to be quiet and accept no freedom sufficient for the israelis?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, TimeMachine said:

Not completely , you put extra detail. 

No I don't completely agree with the premise of what you are saying, because the Israel  situation is not a single daughter being raped of mine. Or the repetitive atrocity of your example. It involves something far more reaching and involving many more people who are revengeful  and atrocities being perpetrated on both sides most likely that we can know mostly sketchy details of.

 

So , we have conflicting views over a small discussion. Imagine if we were neighbours how life difficult could be. And the solution. I agree with you or you agree with me. No, not likely. The solution, I don't know. Personally , I would move out and buy another house. But Israelis and Palestinians probably don't have that option. I find different races/cultures have slightly different mindsets and handle disputes differently. I think both sides are making mistakes and highlighting the disgusting nature of humanity. 

 

It involves something far more reaching and involving many more people who are revengeful  and atrocities being perpetrated on both sides most likely that we can know mostly sketchy details of.

 

Indeed. However, the israelis are the ones with the trained army with all the weapons and hi tech toys needed to dominate a population with just a few light weapons and no organized militia. The israelis are the ones frequently invading Palestinian towns, arresting boys, demolishing houses and leaving dead Palestinians to mourn ( at least till 3 weeks ago ).

 

 

Imagine if we were neighbours how life difficult could be. And the solution. I agree with you or you agree with me. No, not likely. The solution, I don't know. Personally , I would move out and buy another house. But Israelis and Palestinians probably don't have that option.

 

In the case of the Palestinians, the neighbours are settlers that attack them with the protection of the army, wreck their cars, destroy their property and burn their olive trees, all with the tacit encouragement of the israeli government. Apparently they even murdered a Palestinian trying to harvest olives ( reported on Al Jazeera ).

 

Of all the people on the planet, one would think Jews, with their history of oppression would be the least likely to oppress another people, but one is sadly mistaken.

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

Sure. There is no rule to knowing what is correct reasoning of morality.  You have given your reaction to your example, but not all would agree to conclude like you. I used to use the term common sense, but can't anymore. I would think it be common sense not to have Joe Biden as President of the most powerful nation on the planet. But he is says I am insane or the lines are moving.

The poster that you quoted may be justified in his comments concerning October 7, but he seems to ignore the 30 years of oppression that led inexorably to October 7.

Had he been born a Palestinian in Gaza, he may have a different opinion.

 

As far as biden is concerned, one can only wonder what went so fundamentally wrong in the US that he even won a primary, though at least he did win a primary, unlike the vice president that got roundly defeated, yet could become POTUS.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, deejai33 said:

I'm trying to appreciate what all sides of the conflict see.  This conflict has gone on all of my life.  

It is my understanding that the majority of Palestinians living in Palestine were born under israeli occupation.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It involves something far more reaching and involving many more people who are revengeful  and atrocities being perpetrated on both sides most likely that we can know mostly sketchy details of.

 

Indeed. However, the israelis are the ones with the trained army with all the weapons and hi tech toys needed to dominate a population with just a few light weapons and no organized militia. The israelis are the ones frequently invading Palestinian towns, arresting boys, demolishing houses and leaving dead Palestinians to mourn ( at least till 3 weeks ago ).

 

 

Imagine if we were neighbours how life difficult could be. And the solution. I agree with you or you agree with me. No, not likely. The solution, I don't know. Personally , I would move out and buy another house. But Israelis and Palestinians probably don't have that option.

 

In the case of the Palestinians, the neighbours are settlers that attack them with the protection of the army, wreck their cars, destroy their property and burn their olive trees, all with the tacit encouragement of the israeli government. Apparently they even murdered a Palestinian trying to harvest olives ( reported on Al Jazeera ).

 

Of all the people on the planet, one would think Jews, with their history of oppression would be the least likely to oppress another people, but one is sadly mistaken.

However, the israelis are the ones with the trained army with all the weapons and hi tech toys needed to dominate a population with just a few light weapons and no organized militia. 

 

Where did you get the notion that Hamas has just a few light weapons and no organized militia? Been watching too much Al Jeezera again?

 

Hamas has "a military academy training a range of specialisations including cyber security, and boasts a naval commando unit among its 40,000-strong military wing."

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-hamas-secretly-built-mini-army-fight-israel-2023-10-13/

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Is 30 years of oppression sufficient justification for Hamas, and is 30 years of Palestinians refusing to be quiet and accept no freedom sufficient for the israelis?

 

For the atrocities committed? No, no justification.

 

And those without blinkers on would accept that at least as far as the Gaza Strip goes, a whole lot of what Israel has been doing over the years is directly tied to Hamas's own actions and agenda. People in the Gaza Strip would not be dying in the thousands had Hamas not carried out the 7/10 attack.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It involves something far more reaching and involving many more people who are revengeful  and atrocities being perpetrated on both sides most likely that we can know mostly sketchy details of.

 

Indeed. However, the israelis are the ones with the trained army with all the weapons and hi tech toys needed to dominate a population with just a few light weapons and no organized militia. The israelis are the ones frequently invading Palestinian towns, arresting boys, demolishing houses and leaving dead Palestinians to mourn ( at least till 3 weeks ago ).

 

 

Imagine if we were neighbours how life difficult could be. And the solution. I agree with you or you agree with me. No, not likely. The solution, I don't know. Personally , I would move out and buy another house. But Israelis and Palestinians probably don't have that option.

 

In the case of the Palestinians, the neighbours are settlers that attack them with the protection of the army, wreck their cars, destroy their property and burn their olive trees, all with the tacit encouragement of the israeli government. Apparently they even murdered a Palestinian trying to harvest olives ( reported on Al Jazeera ).

 

Of all the people on the planet, one would think Jews, with their history of oppression would be the least likely to oppress another people, but one is sadly mistaken.

 

 

 

 

 

 

While you do your best to support Hamas by minimizing it's capabilities, intentions and actions carried out, this doesn't wash. Hamas managed to murder a whole lot of Israelis in a single day, even if allowing for your apologist misinformation. Reality Hamas is well organized, possess a large stock pile of rockets, anti-tank missiles, funds and supply. Some of it's men train in Iran, or with the Hezbollah. Quite enough for a 25,000-40,000 strong outfit.

 

Almost all of what you claimed Israel is doing does not happen in the Gaza Strip, where Hamas rules, but in the West Bank.

 

The 'of all the people' bit if more misleading nonsense - as a group, Jews were not invested in violent struggle aimed at destroying countries they were citizens of. Jews were not a threat. Had no inspirations of destroying and overtaking countries.

 

 

[placnx]

15 hours ago, deejai33 said:

I do not think it was the trigger for Hamas's attrocities.  

 

On it's own, the map does not justify Hamas's actions.  Ofcourse not.  

 

I posted the map as I first found it on the Ynet news site, refered to by Mr Morch.   I thought it must be 'fake news', not real, but later I found it was not disputed and is actually what the Israeli PM showed the UN.

 

However if the map indicates the israeli governments intention to never have a Palestinian state, or never to have equal rights for Palestinians within a single state, then I can see it would make Palestinians angry.  

 

I'm focussed on learning about the Palestinian-Israel conflict.  And on on positive ways forward.   

 

The israeli PM, Hamas, Palestinian PA leader, USA stance, all seem to be a problem, a hurdle to a viable peace.   

 

I'm trying to appreciate what all sides of the conflict see.  This conflict has gone on all of my life.  

 

 

To really understand why the US has vetoed so many Security Council resolutions, you have to know about this:

Sorry it's a long read, around 500 pages. Most people only know about AIPAC, Anti-defamation League - tip of the iceberg.

 

Unless a lot of people know about this, how the US Congress is cowed, it will be very difficult for there to be peace in the Middle East.

[placnx]

14 hours ago, Morch said:

 

In general, you are correct. Reveling at such things is more the Palestinians' thing. Pin in culture, on oppression or whatever - it's still there. As far as Israelis go, I think even when there are such reactions, they are usually less 'celebratory'.

 

There was one infamous instance in which such expressions of hate and vileness were expressed - which resulted in wide condemnations in Israel, and (minor) penalties for actions. As can be expected, these were hardcore, right-wing religious zealots from the illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank:

 

Israeli settlers at a wedding party cheer burning of Palestinian baby

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israeli-settlers-wedding-palestinian/

 

Israel convicts 7 over wedding where murdered Palestinian baby was mocked

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-convicts-7-over-wedding-where-murdered-palestinian-baby-was-mocked-2022-04-27/

 

But horrid as this may be, it also highlights that in Israel, this not a widely accepted behavior. Legal and public reactions being very different from the jovial street celebrations and distributing of sweets, customary among Palestinians after 'successful' terrorist attacks (nevermind the scenes in Gaza streets on 7/10).

 

I'm sure that there were other such incidents (if less headline makers) among the same 'crowd'. But maybe the point is that if one can clearly recall a specific one goes toward demonstrating how uncommon, or unacceptable this is.

Thank you for mentioning the settlers. The pogroms which they visit on the indigenous people cause great outrage in Gaza, too, I suppose. These attacks are done with impunity in the presence of IDF.

 

As for the celebration with sweets, it's like the prisoners celebrating a jailbreak. Had they already seen the horrific videos? I remember reading of a call from a Hamas killer to his parents in Gaza, reported in a recent Israeli government video. When the son said how he was a hero for killing a number of people and asked his dad for approval, dad told him to come home. Parents sounded unhappy with him. 

[deejai33]

21 minutes ago, placnx said:

To really understand why the US has vetoed so many Security Council resolutions, you have to know about this:

Sorry it's a long read, around 500 pages. Most people only know about AIPAC, Anti-defamation League - tip of the iceberg.

 

Unless a lot of people know about this, how the US Congress is cowed, it will be very difficult for there to be peace in the Middle East.

Thanks, 500 pages is a lot !  And its 15+ years old.   Seems to have been well received aswell as criticised, perhaps by that lobby.

 

Wikipedia has article on it and google books has sample pages

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

 

 

 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, placnx said:

Thank you for mentioning the settlers. The pogroms which they visit on the indigenous people cause great outrage in Gaza, too, I suppose. These attacks are done with impunity in the presence of IDF.

 

As for the celebration with sweets, it's like the prisoners celebrating a jailbreak. Had they already seen the horrific videos? I remember reading of a call from a Hamas killer to his parents in Gaza, reported in a recent Israeli government video. When the son said how he was a hero for killing a number of people and asked his dad for approval, dad told him to come home. Parents sounded unhappy with him. 

 

The sweets celebration thing are a pan-Arab thing, not limited to Palestinians under Israel's control. That you try to minimize and excuse such behavior says all there is to say about your position and bias. Your interpretation of the the call your referenced is partial and biased as well, the family actually congratulates him. The Parents do not sound 'unhappy' with him at all. Excuses, again. 

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, placnx said:

Thank you for mentioning the settlers. The pogroms which they visit on the indigenous people cause great outrage in Gaza, too, I suppose. These attacks are done with impunity in the presence of IDF.

 

As for the celebration with sweets, it's like the prisoners celebrating a jailbreak. Had they already seen the horrific videos? I remember reading of a call from a Hamas killer to his parents in Gaza, reported in a recent Israeli government video. When the son said how he was a hero for killing a number of people and asked his dad for approval, dad told him to come home. Parents sounded unhappy with him. 

Ah yes, the brave settler heroes that attack unarmed Palestinians, destroy their property, and injure them, all while protected by the army. Done to chase the Palestinians off THEIR land, while the government is arming them to do even worse.

israel can be proud of such brave men, for sure. An example to the world of israeli culture.

[placeholder]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:22 AM, Morch said:

 

No.

Your previous comments, and the current one are the all the same - you find something to nitpick, allege posers imply things, and spin this into a whole side-topic. You do the same thing over and over again across multiple topics and discussions. Nothing new. It's amazing you can't seem to post without engaging in such a manner.

 

The % you cite in regard to the elections refers to the general vote. The Palestinian system is a dual one. So in Parliament, Hamas had an overwhelming majority of 74 our of 132. Further, the original government formed right after the elections was a Hamas government, not a unity one. It was only after it became obvious that a Hamas government would pose a huge problem vs. the international community and Israel, that a unity government was formed.

 

The poll you cited does not indicate wall-to-wall support for a two state solution, no matter how you try to spin it. Hamas's rejections of this, by 'virtue' of being more inclined to act on things, means that it punches above it's weight. All the more so when the side handling negotiations is the the PA. This is not very different than how things are in Israel, or maybe anywhere else - harder to mobilize the Center.

 

So much for 'call out', 'false' and the rest of your nonsense. Pavlovian...pffft.

Another typical Pavlovian response. Nitpicking indeed!

Your original claim on the extent of Palestinian support of Hamas was based on how many seats they won in Parliament. Obviously, this is an invalid way to guage support. The accurate way, if  you're going to use voting as a kind of poll, is to tally the votes, not the seats. But given that those elections took place 16 years ago, what do more up-to-date figures tell us?

You claimed that Hamas enjoyed "significant" support. "Significant" is one of those weasel words that can be applied to a huge range of percentages.  But when it comes down to actual percentages, it turns out Hamas support is extremely weak. A majority of Palestinians in Gaza, and not a bare one either, disapprove of Hamas. Another large majority disapprove of violence against Israel.

Here's a link so you can acquaint yourself with the numbers. 

https://archive.ph/7UuRk

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

 

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Another typical Pavlovian response. Nitpicking indeed!

Your original claim on the extent of Palestinian support of Hamas was based on how many seats they won in Parliament. Obviously, this is an invalid way to guage support. The accurate way, if  you're going to use voting as a kind of poll, is to tally the votes, not the seats. But given that those elections took place 16 years ago, what do more up-to-date figures tell us?

You claimed that Hamas enjoyed "significant" support. "Significant" is one of those weasel words that can be applied to a huge range of percentages.  But when it comes down to actual percentages, it turns out Hamas support is extremely weak. A majority of Palestinians in Gaza, and not a bare one either, disapprove of Hamas. Another large majority disapprove of violence against Israel.

Here's a link so you can acquaint yourself with the numbers. 

https://archive.ph/7UuRk

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

 

 

So basically, you're doing the same thing again.

 

You' are not the arbiter of how to gauge support. You have, apparently, little understanding of why local bases of support carry a strong meaning in Palestinian politics vs. overall support. You seem to be importing USA/Western notions into this, I don't think the translation works that well.

 

If the PA was half as sure as you are about them figures accurately representing support, they'd be far more willing to hold elections by now. They do not.

 

Significant is significant - you want to argue that 20%, 30% or whatever is not significant, that's up to you - nitpick away. I will comment again that the Hamas crowd and support, being more into extreme and religious views are (as I'm aware of things, at least) easier to mobilize. Coupled with reputation for violence, that's a factor.

 

Tell me again how you're not nitpicking. Or better yet, don't.

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

56 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Failing to engage with data much?

From your link: 

How much trust do you have in the Hamas-led government? 

A great deal of faith:  ~12%

Quite a lot:                  ~17%

Not a lot:                    ~23%

                                   ~52%

Not at all:                   ~45%

 

So less than half have no faith in the Hamas-led government. How can you claim that is not significant? Clearly hamas is polling better among Palestinians than President Biden is polling among Americans. 

 

More from your link: 

Which party, if any, do you feel closest to?

Fatah                                     ~30%

Hamas                                   ~27%

Palestinian Islamic jihad        ~7%                

Other,                                     ~14%

No party                                 ~15%

Don't know                              ~7%

 

So combined, Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad parties are the lagest voting block in Palestine, and both are terrorist groups, and both want to exterminate all the Jews in Israel, after raping many of them.

 

[metisdead]

A petty bickering session contravening our Community Standards has been removed.

[Yellowtail]

On 10/29/2023 at 9:21 PM, deejai33 said:

I can believe there are people who have maps that do not acknowledge Israel as a country.  As you say, Hamas surely and others.

 

But Israel is a member of United Nation, is treated as a nation by many countries.   OK. Good.

 

Similarly Palestine is a country, recognized by 139 UN members (wikipedia: palestine).

 

The israeli PM should have shown a map with Palestine on it too.

 

If palestine does not have a state, where do 7m+ palestinians go ? 

 

 

Interesting read about MSNBC playing fast and loose maps:

"The first map pertaining to 1946 labeled the entire territory as “Palestine” with the vast majority of the map colored green, denoting Palestinian control. The following maps dated “UN Plan 1947,” “1949-1967” and “Present” showed Palestinian-controlled territory decreasing dramatically in size over time.

The maps and subsequent analysis gave the impression that a state of Palestine had existed in 1946 when in fact the area was under British Mandatory rule until May 14, 1948."

MSNBC apologizes for 'completely wrong' maps of Israel | The Times of Israel

And a little more interesting:

"The problem with these maps and with Fletcher’s explanation is that no state of “Palestine” existed in 1946 – or ever. The green area is simply a rendering of the territory not under Israeli sovereignty. It does NOT demarcate land possessed by Arabs or by the mythical state of Palestine. In fact, the vast majority of the land (over 90 percent) had no legally recognized owner after the dissolution of the Ottoman empire in the wake of World War I. The disposition of the green areas remains to this day undetermined because the Arabs rejected the United Nations partition resolution in 1947 and because the Palestinians continue to reject any final agreement with Israel."

Update: MSNBC Corrects Mistaken Use of a False Historical Map of Palestine | CAMERA  

 

 

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3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

From your link: 

How much trust do you have in the Hamas-led government? 

A great deal of faith:  ~12%

Quite a lot:                  ~17%

Not a lot:                    ~23%

                                   ~52%

Not at all:                   ~45%

 

So less than half have no faith in the Hamas-led government. How can you claim that is not significant? Clearly hamas is polling better among Palestinians than President Biden is polling among Americans. 

 

If somebody tells you that they have not a lot of trust in you, would you reply "Thanks for your support."?

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3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

More from your link: 

Which party, if any, do you feel closest to?

Fatah                                     ~30%

Hamas                                   ~27%

Palestinian Islamic jihad        ~7%                

Other,                                     ~14%

No party                                 ~15%

Don't know                              ~7%

 

So combined, Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad parties are the lagest voting block in Palestine, and both are terrorist groups, and both want to exterminate all the Jews in Israel, after raping many of them.

Math challenged much? I guess other parties don't count?  And even if the total comes to  37%, does that come anywhere near a majority? What's your point?