Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

Agreed, his opinion remains unchanged that Israeli Gov’t must stop indiscriminate bombing of Gaza’s civilians, especially in the South where they told them to move to for safety reasons.

 

 

Sorry, you say his opinion remains unchanged, why did he just clarify it it then?

[Morch]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Excellent post, and certainly easy to understand.

 

IMO the israelis and Americans already lost public opinion in most of the world over trying to starve millions to death.

It's ironic that Russia is looking better with it's call for an immediate ceasefire than the US with it's hold out for a "pause". What the <deleted> does a "pause" mean anyway? Just keep them alive a bit longer so they can be blown to bits later?

 

And I'm pretty sure that when Israel is talking about crippling Hamas that they are not talking about bringing any back for trial.

 

While the israelis have not shared their plans for after the invasion, one can only surmise that they intend to arrest every Palestinian male left alive and able to walk, and lock them up for a very long time, as by now every Gazan must surely want nothing else than revenge against israelis.

 

You seem to conflate between your opinion and global public opinion, which is it?

 

A pause means no official ceasefire, in a more limited area, and aimed solely at providing aid to civilians. A ceasefire would be more encompassing than that.

 

There were several posts with links detailing what the Israeli plans probably are. You can read them instead of making things up.

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

 

 

Sorry, you say his opinion remains unchanged, why did he just clarify it it then?

People accused him of ignoring the reality of the slaughter of Israeli citizens by Hamas, he never condoned that and that is what he clarified.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I though he made anti Zionist remarks, did I miss something?

The Labour peer Lord Levy told the BBC's Newsnight: "There can be criticism of the state of Israel, but anti-Semitism - using the word 'Zionist' as another form of anti-Semitism - frankly can no longer be tolerated."

[Morch]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

One can only surmise that certain posters consider anyone against the israeli actions concerning the Palestinians is "anti semitic".

 

One can only surmise that certain posters cannot follow the full exchange as they 'ignore' a whole lot of other posters.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

People accused him of ignoring the reality of the slaughter of Israeli citizens by Hamas, he never condoned that and that is what he clarified.

 

 

He added.

 

'But the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas'.”

 

"nothing can justify the deliberate killing, injuring and kidnapping of civilians – or the launching of rockets against civilian targets".

 

[Nick Carter icp]

24 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

UN Chief said …

 

Mr Guterres told reporters: "I am shocked by the misrepresentations by some of my statement... as if, as if I was justifying acts of terror by Hamas. This is false. It was the opposite."

 

There seems to be a lot of that here too.  
 

It’s Shameful.

 

 

 

   He stated his honest opinion, then received condemnation for his opinion and them back tracked to appease other people .

   His original statement still stands and he heeds to resign or be removed from his job as hes not fit for purpose 

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

The Labour peer Lord Levy told the BBC's Newsnight: "There can be criticism of the state of Israel, but anti-Semitism - using the word 'Zionist' as another form of anti-Semitism - frankly can no longer be tolerated."

If using the word Zionist is used as another form of antisemitism then I agree.  I think the onus is on the user of the word to be extremely clear.  Zionism is a movement/religion not a people.

 

I can say I am anti-religion, most especially Islam, but I have no problem with any peoples or individuals following said religion.

 

I am also against religion being in power as government, I support secular government with an impenetrable wall between church and state.

 

It seems wherever we have religion in power we have problems.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

If using the word Zionist is used as another form of antisemitism then I agree.  I think the onus is on the user of the word to be extremely clear.  Zionism is a movement/religion not a people.

 

I can say I am anti-religion, most especially Islam, but I have no problem with any peoples or individuals following said religion.

 

I am also against religion being in power as government, I support secular government with an impenetrable wall between church and state.

 

It seems wherever we have religion in power we have problems.

 

I think the onus is on the user of the word to be extremely clear.  

 

The user was very clear that he is also anti-Semitic

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   He stated his honest opinion, then received condemnation for his opinion and them back tracked to appease other people .

   His original statement still stands and he heeds to resign or be removed from his job as hes not fit for purpose 

I disagree, I support his assessment.

I do think he should have been a lot clearer condemning Hamas, but he is absolutely correct about stopping the bombing of Gaza in the south where the Israeli government told citizens to move to for safety reasons.  IMHO the bombing of the South is a crime.

 

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

I think the onus is on the user of the word to be extremely clear.  

 

The user was very clear that he is also anti-Semitic

I missed that post, can you point it out for me?

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

I disagree, I support his assessment.

I do think he should have been a lot clearer condemning Hamas, but he is absolutely correct about stopping the bombing of Gaza in the south where the Israeli government told citizens to move to for safety reasons.  IMHO the bombing of the South is a crime.

 

 

 

   Israel are not actually bombing the safe places in the South , there seems to have been one bomb targeting Hamas that hit a neighbouring building and its not been made clear whether that building  was in a safe zone or not .

   If Israel were bombing civilians in the safe South, there would be 100 000's of casualties , which there isnt .

  It was one stay rocket that you are referring to .

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I missed that post, can you point it out for me?

https://aseannow.com/topic/1309894-the-gaza-diplomacy-of-biden-sunak-and-co-seems-to-be-heading-for-failure/page/9/#comment-18447741

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Israel are not actually bombing the safe places in the South , there seems to have been one bomb targeting Hamas that hit a neighbouring building and its not been made clear whether that building  was in a safe zone or not .

   If Israel were bombing civilians in the safe South, there would be 100 000's of casualties , which there isnt .

  It was one stay rocket that you are referring to .

Maybe, maybe not.  It’s impossible to know the real position. Al Jazeera lists 5 locations in South Gaza bombed yesterday, most likely with multiple rockets or bombs.

 

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, though, generally I trust Al Jazeera.

 

I also read Russia Today, though, I support Ukraine in the invasion, but I like to read everything available and form my own opinion.

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

https://aseannow.com/topic/1309894-the-gaza-diplomacy-of-biden-sunak-and-co-seems-to-be-heading-for-failure/page/9/#comment-18447741

 

Thanks

[JBChiangRai]

16 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Israel are not actually bombing the safe places in the South , there seems to have been one bomb targeting Hamas that hit a neighbouring building and its not been made clear whether that building  was in a safe zone or not .

   If Israel were bombing civilians in the safe South, there would be 100 000's of casualties , which there isnt .

  It was one stay rocket that you are referring to .

I think it’s fairly clear that the Israeli government is not targeting Hamas in Gaza in general, if they were only targeting Hamas, we wouldn’t have 6000 civilians killed.

 

You have to destroy a huge amount of property to kill 6000 people.

[James105]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think it’s fairly clear that the Israeli government is not targeting Hamas in Gaza in general, if they were only targeting Hamas, we wouldn’t have 6000 civilians killed.

 

You have to destroy a huge amount of property to kill 6000 people.

 

Where are these numbers coming from?  Were all 6000 of them civilians?  Not a single terrorist amongst them?  Does that number include the 1000/800/500 claimed by Hamas in the hospital own goal that produced a crater the size of a pothole that could never have claimed anywhere close to that many lives.

 

Do you ever question the numbers you propagate on behalf of Hamas? 

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

Where are these numbers coming from?  Were all 6000 of them civilians?  Not a single terrorist amongst them?  Does that number include the 1000/800/500 claimed by Hamas in the hospital own goal that produced a crater the size of a pothole that could never have claimed anywhere close to that many lives.

 

Do you ever question the numbers you propagate on behalf of Hamas? 

I am sorry to disappoint you, but I don’t propagate numbers on behalf of anyone.

 

This kind of sniping has to stop.

Edited October 26, 2023 by JBChiangRai

[James105]

17 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I am sorry to disappoint you, but I don’t propagate numbers on behalf of anyone.

 

This kind of sniping has to stop.

 

If you are posting numbers of "civilian" casualties as a fact then you should really include the source that you are citing them from.    As far as I know this number comes from Hamas so to repeat these numbers in this way is in fact propagating them on behalf of Hamas.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

If you are posting numbers of "civilian" casualties as a fact then you should really include the source that you are citing them from.    As far as I know this number comes from Hamas so to repeat these numbers in this way is in fact propagating them on behalf of Hamas.

I think that number came from the BBC, naturally all numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza will come from Gaza, and therefore Hamas

 

Even so, if half that number is accurate, the claim in my post still stands, the Israeli Gov’t cannot be targeting Hamas only, they must be indiscriminate bombing.

Edited October 26, 2023 by JBChiangRai

[James105]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think that number came from the BBC, naturally all numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza will come from Gaza, and therefore Hamas

 

Even so, if half that number is accurate, the claim in my post still stands, the Israeli Gov’t cannot be targeting Hamas only, they must be indiscriminate bombing.

 

If Hamas fires rockets from the buildings where civilians live then that is a legal and legitimate target for Isreal to strike.   If Isreal also give warnings to those living in the buildings that they are about to strike there (so they can evacuate) in order to take out the rockets being fired at them from that building, who do you think is more to blame for these casualties?  Isreal or Hamas?  

 

Hamas could end this right now by turning themselves in to face justice for the murderous, barbaric atrocities they committed and return all the hostages.    It's within their power to prevent any more civilian losses in Palestine, and if they cared even one iota for the people who live there then that is what they could do.   

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Agreed, his opinion remains unchanged that Israeli Gov’t must stop indiscriminate bombing of Gaza’s civilians, especially in the South where they told them to move to for safety reasons.

 

You keep making this misleading comment about 'the South'. There was nothing said about all southern Gaza being a safe zone.

 

IDF announcements to the population specified designated areas in the south of the Gaza Strip as 'safe zones'. This was clearly communicated by audio, video, leaflets and IMs - including maps. All of this was linked more than once on these topics when it happened.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I though he made anti Zionist remarks, did I miss something?

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1309894-the-gaza-diplomacy-of-biden-sunak-and-co-seems-to-be-heading-for-failure/page/9/#comment-18447741

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1309894-the-gaza-diplomacy-of-biden-sunak-and-co-seems-to-be-heading-for-failure/page/10/#comment-18448864

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Maybe, maybe not.  It’s impossible to know the real position. Al Jazeera lists 5 locations in South Gaza bombed yesterday, most likely with multiple rockets or bombs.

 

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, though, generally I trust Al Jazeera.

 

I also read Russia Today, though, I support Ukraine in the invasion, but I like to read everything available and form my own opinion.

 

You trust Al Jazeera - owned by Qatar.

Al Jazeera does doesn't do coverage or reports that runs against Qatari government interests.

Qatar is a long term host of Hamas leadership, and a major donor to the Gaza Strip.

.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think it’s fairly clear that the Israeli government is not targeting Hamas in Gaza in general, if they were only targeting Hamas, we wouldn’t have 6000 civilians killed.

 

You have to destroy a huge amount of property to kill 6000 people.

 

Hamas is embedded within civilians. It is not like there are a whole lot of Hamas 'military' targets out there in the open, and Israel bombing civilians instead. If Israel was after killing civilians, the death toll would be way higher.

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think that number came from the BBC, naturally all numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza will come from Gaza, and therefore Hamas

 

Even so, if half that number is accurate, the claim in my post still stands, the Israeli Gov’t cannot be targeting Hamas only, they must be indiscriminate bombing.

 

Casualty figures are reported by the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas. I think that's mentioned in most reports. It's not like the BBC can verify these figures on its own. The reliability of casualty figures by Hamas has been contested many times in the past, including by UN and aid organizations.

 

Try to understand that what you call 'indiscriminate' does not necessarily conform to the legal, official or operational application. This too was already extensively discussed on these topics.

[thaibeachlovers]

27 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

If Hamas fires rockets from the buildings where civilians live then that is a legal and legitimate target for Isreal to strike.   If Isreal also give warnings to those living in the buildings that they are about to strike there (so they can evacuate) in order to take out the rockets being fired at them from that building, who do you think is more to blame for these casualties?  Isreal or Hamas?  

 

Hamas could end this right now by turning themselves in to face justice for the murderous, barbaric atrocities they committed and return all the hostages.    It's within their power to prevent any more civilian losses in Palestine, and if they cared even one iota for the people who live there then that is what they could do.   

All the Hamas could hand themselves over and the israelis would claim that not all had done so and carry on regardless, IMO.

They told those in the north to evacuate to the south and then killed some trying to go south, and started bombing in the south.

The israelis IMO are not to be trusted, and some in the leadership have reportedly said they want a "permanent solution", which IMO means complete destruction of Gaza.

 

IMO it's the israelis that care not an iota for any Palestinian life, having oppressed them for over 30 years.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

Were all 6000 of them civilians?  Not a single terrorist amongst them? 

Certainly no terrorists among the over 1,500 children killed by israeli bombs on residential areas, some of whom were babies.

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Certainly no terrorists among the over 1,500 children killed by israeli bombs on residential areas, some of whom were babies.

Not sure about that, we are talking Hamas here and child bombers are well known in the group, here's just one link, there are plenty.

 

In Gaza, a game “shuhada” is staged by children on streets to offer mock funeral offerings to the suicide bombers (identified as martyrs by them). The children identify with them as their heros and ideals. Usually vulnerable children like them are carefully selected by a terrorist organization.

They are then divided into small groups which is presided by a teacher. Gradually the youngsters are transformed in to weapons of destruction. They are left with no sense of individualism and identity. The ultimate motive is to be an asset to the group.

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

 

If Hamas fires rockets from the buildings where civilians live then that is a legal and legitimate target for Isreal to strike.   If Isreal also give warnings to those living in the buildings that they are about to strike there (so they can evacuate) in order to take out the rockets being fired at them from that building, who do you think is more to blame for these casualties?  Isreal or Hamas?  

 

Hamas could end this right now by turning themselves in to face justice for the murderous, barbaric atrocities they committed and return all the hostages.    It's within their power to prevent any more civilian losses in Palestine, and if they cared even one iota for the people who live there then that is what they could do.   

 

We don’t know where Hamas are sending rockets from, it’s all speculation.

 

I don’t trust “any” news outlet, as I said, I like to read them all and form my own opinion.

 

Generally, I like Al Jazeera, but as you said, you have to look behind the obvious bias, and the same can be said of some of the posters here.

 

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

You trust Al Jazeera - owned by Qatar.

Al Jazeera does doesn't do coverage or reports that runs against Qatari government interests.

Qatar is a long term host of Hamas leadership, and a major donor to the Gaza Strip.

.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

We don’t know where Hamas are sending rockets from, it’s all speculation.

 

Next to UN buildings, near schools and mosques, close to hospitals.