CAn Foreigner get Tax number and do first ever return online , if not how please?

[RubbaJohnny]

I read the threads but nune the wiser how what when I need to act.

Will it require a trip to immigration for a proof of address.

Will esidncey in Thailand end residency elsewhwere and will Thai government confirm this.

 

I am sure we could all use clarification.

I wrote to Thai embassy in home country zero response

I wrote to my own who said I musy seek local advice.

 

Living in a remote village I dont even know where the tax office is.

 

First question has the new requirement come into force or is it start or end of 2024 please?

If start of 2024 will it want income for this year 2023 or self assessed projection for 2024

My pension is taxed at source and my country has a dual taxation treaty

[The Cyclist]

For now, do nothing ( yet )

 

The new rule starts on the 01 Jan 2024.

 

The Thai tax year runs from 01 Jan - 31 Dec.

 

All will become clear sometime in 2024 before you need to do / file anything in 2025.

 

Do not put yourself on the radar, before you need to, would be my advice.

[kelboy]

Just keep quiet and don't open a can of worms.

[Sheryl]

The new rule does not alter reporting requirements. 

 

The only change us that remitting funds to Thailand in a different year than they were earned no longer automatically  protects that remittance from taxation.  This change comes into effect 1 January.  If your pension is directly remitted then  your tax liability, if any,  is same as ever.

 

As I understand it,  filing a tax return is required if you owe any tax which means you have 160k baht or more of taxable income.

 

Read your applicable DTA carefully to determine if you fall into that category.   

[Startmeup]

6 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The new rule does not alter reporting requirements. 

 

The only change us that remitting funds to Thailand in a different year than they were earned no longer automatically  protects that remittance from taxation.  This change comes into effect 1 January.  If your pension is directly remitted then  your tax liability, if any,  is same as ever.

 

As I understand it,  filing a tax return is required if you owe any tax which means you have 160k baht or more of taxable income.

 

Read your applicable DTA carefully to determine if you fall into that category.   

As of now there is no new rules. No proper disclosure has been made to make any informative decision regarding a tax change. 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2023/11/04/tax-change-for-expats-living-in-thailand/


To answer the OP question yes a foreigner can get a TAX ID, I have one but have not done any tax returns.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Startmeup

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

As I understand it,  filing a tax return is required if you owe any tax which means you have 160k baht or more of taxable income.

 

Read your applicable DTA carefully to determine if you fall into that category.   

 

I think these 2 sentences highlight the source of all the ire and confusion.

 

1 I have never filed a Thai tax return because I do not believe that the income I remit is taxable in Thailand due to the UK - Thai DTA

 

2. But, will I now have to file a Nil tax return, but listing my non taxable income on an annual basis.

 

3. Or, will it be a case of carry on as before, not filing annual tax returns.

 

Personally, I am not really bothered what I might have to do, I would just like clarity on it.

[expat_4_life]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I think these 2 sentences highlight the source of all the ire and confusion.

 

1 I have never filed a Thai tax return because I do not believe that the income I remit is taxable in Thailand due to the UK - Thai DTA

 

2. But, will I now have to file a Nil tax return, but listing my non taxable income on an annual basis.

 

3. Or, will it be a case of carry on as before, not filing annual tax returns.

 

Personally, I am not really bothered what I might have to do, I would just like clarity on it.

 

I am not bothered either, however/whatever the changes and the affect on me, I've no intention of going anywhere - it is what it is <shrug>

I been avoiding these topics mostly because, well, I'll deal with it when/if/however they decide to move forward.  I'm definitely a "don't get out over your skis" kinda guy.  I will wait until they demand something from me.

 

If you have no intention of leaving, then don't stress about it or do anything.

 

That my strategy.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, expat_4_life said:

I am not bothered either, however/whatever the changes and the affect on me, I've no intention of going anywhere - it is what it is <shrug>

 

#metoo 

 

4 minutes ago, expat_4_life said:

then don't stress about it

 

Not stressing - Laughing at the nonsense being posted 

[expat_4_life]

9 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

#metoo 

 

 

Not stressing - Laughing at the nonsense being posted 

 

Did not mean to imply u seem stressed but many people are totally Hair-on-Fire freaking out, something I cant even begin to fathom

(where is my Hair-on-Fire emoji anyway )

Edited November 12, 2023 by expat_4_life

[TroubleandGrumpy]

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I think these 2 sentences highlight the source of all the ire and confusion.

1 I have never filed a Thai tax return because I do not believe that the income I remit is taxable in Thailand due to the UK - Thai DTA

2. But, will I now have to file a Nil tax return, but listing my non taxable income on an annual basis.

3. Or, will it be a case of carry on as before, not filing annual tax returns.

Personally, I am not really bothered what I might have to do, I would just like clarity on it.

 

1. No one knows for sure, but up to you if you want to plan ahead.

2. Unless Immigration make lodging a tax return a requirement to extend your Visa/Permission - then NO - Wait.

All will be revealed - soon - one day - next year - maybe.

[RubbaJohnny]

In many countries paying late lleads to a fine or they assess , thnk of number ? and send you a bill.

 

The only way they can check the number of days they can confirm how many relevant days will be via immigration surely>

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, expat_4_life said:

 

Did not mean to imply u seem stressed but many people are totally Hair-on-Fire freaking out, something I cant even begin to fathom

(where is my Hair-on-Fire emoji anyway)

 

Yes, there appears to be quite a few of them 

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

. No one knows for sure, but up to you if you want to plan ahead.

 

I have done

 

1 - I have stopped my Private Pension being remitted to Thailand after December. 

 

2 - I have googled the location of the nearest Tax Office ( In case I have to go get a TIN )

 

Other than that I will be doing nothing

[Sheryl]

39 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I think these 2 sentences highlight the source of all the ire and confusion.

 

1 I have never filed a Thai tax return because I do not believe that the income I remit is taxable in Thailand due to the UK - Thai DTA

 

2. But, will I now have to file a Nil tax return, but listing my non taxable income on an annual basis.

 

3. Or, will it be a case of carry on as before, not filing annual tax returns.

 

Personally, I am not really bothered what I might have to do, I would just like clarity on it.

I take it then that what you have is  "Government" pension and not the State Old Age Pension? 

 

If so then to my understanding it is exempt from taxation in Thailand so if this is ghe only thing you remit, you owe no tax and under current rules are not required to file.

 

I am in same category, in my case because my only incoming is US Social Security. 

 

Again  there have been no changes to reporting requirements.  Just keep an eye on future developments.

 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

take it then that what you have is  "Government" pension and not the State Old Age Pension? 

 

This is correct.

 

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

If so then to my understanding it is exempt from taxation in Thailand so if this is ghe only thing you remit, you owe no tax and under current rules are not required to file.

 

Thank you. I actually had no idea what the current rules for filing were.

 

So unless something changes I wasted about 2 minutes on google finding my nearest tax office 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

26 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I have done

1 - I have stopped my Private Pension being remitted to Thailand after December. 

2 - I have googled the location of the nearest Tax Office ( In case I have to go get a TIN )

Other than that I will be doing nothing

Good thinking - and as long as you have enough money being remitted into Thailand which is not taxable income.

It looks like a private pension will be - but I think those funds will be one of the many that the Thai RD will provide clarification on.

IMO private pensions will be excluded - depending on the total value of that private pension.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

So unless something changes I wasted about 2 minutes on google finding my nearest tax office 

Unless the Immigration decide to make it a requiremrnt for an annual extension to have filed a tax return.

The minimum amount needed to get an extension, is well over the 150K tax free threshold in Thailand.

[expat_4_life]

29 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I take it then that what you have is  "Government" pension and not the State Old Age Pension? 

 

If so then to my understanding it is exempt from taxation in Thailand so if this is ghe only thing you remit, you owe no tax and under current rules are not required to file.

 

I am in same category, in my case because my only incoming is US Social Security. 

 

Again  there have been no changes to reporting requirements.  Just keep an eye on future developments.

 

 

Good post ...
Contrary to a lot of speculation on the topic, threads like "Change in the tax law does target expats living in Thailand" ... I actually think they are after bigger fish, multi-national companies that do annual remittances of last years off-shore earnings.

I don't see it effecting a lot of pensioners as you have pointed out DTA's, who knows the eventual outcome?  Perhaps to avoid complicating things for us and themselves, they will simply leave retirees alone - some combination of they don't want to discourage current/future retirees and it more trouble than it is worth.

Only time will tell ....

Edited November 12, 2023 by expat_4_life

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Unless the Immigration decide to make it a requiremrnt for an annual extension to have filed a tax return.

 

I will refer you to @Sheryl post above.

 

25 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

f so then to my understanding it is exempt from taxation in Thailand so if this is ghe only thing you remit, you owe no tax and under current rules are not required to file.

 

I don't think immigration is anything to do with taxation, and to suggest otherwise is nothing but scaremongering.

[Moonlover]

The very first announcement, published on Sept 18th said the following:

 

'The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

Read the full article here and stop worrying about it @RubbaJohnny

 

Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024

[TroubleandGrumpy]

51 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I will refer you to @Sheryl post above.

 

I don't think immigration is anything to do with taxation, and to suggest otherwise is nothing but scaremongering.

One of 'those' eh.  Selective and Cognisant reading of what is written - I refer you to Sheryl's word 'currently'.

Up to you though - but dont tell everyone that is is all fine. What does Immigration have to do with  Banking? Health? 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

One of 'those' eh.  Selective and Cognisant reading of what is written - I refer you to Sheryl's word 'currently'.

 

 

Nothing selective about it. It is information on the current rules for filing a tax return.

 

We are all aware that that the rules for taxation of remitted income are changing from the 01 Jan 2024, but I haven't seen or heard anything, and neither has the supplier of said information, heard anything about the rules for filing a tax return on income remitted that is covered by a DTA is changing.

 

If you have information that the rules for filing a tax return are also changing, specifically for income that is covered by a DTA, it would be pertinent, and also very helpful to other readers to post that information.

 

If you do not have information that the current rules for filing are changing, then, yet again, you are fear mongering.

 

You should change your username to DoomandGloom and book your outward travel.

 

Try doing something constructive instead of posting 100's of unfounded negative comments, like packing, selling, and moving to wherever it is you plan to flee to.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nothing selective about it. It is information on the current rules for filing a tax return.

We are all aware that that the rules for taxation of remitted income are changing from the 01 Jan 2024, but I haven't seen or heard anything, and neither has the supplier of said information, heard anything about the rules for filing a tax return on income remitted that is covered by a DTA is changing.

If you have information that the rules for filing a tax return are also changing, specifically for income that is covered by a DTA, it would be pertinent, and also very helpful to other readers to post that information.

If you do not have information that the current rules for filing are changing, then, yet again, you are fear mongering.

You should change your username to DoomandGloom and book your outward travel.

Try doing something constructive instead of posting 100's of unfounded negative comments, like packing, selling, and moving to wherever it is you plan to flee to.

I will Quote what I said - "Unless the Immigration decide to............."  That means IF as in THE FUTURE - meaning NOT the current rules.

Stop being cognitively obtuse and seeing things how you think they are meant, rather than how they are actually meant. 

We are all guilty of doing that - but on this occasion it is not myself - for a change.

 

By the way, DTAs do not work how you think. It is not a matter of saying to yourself 'I have a DTA therefore I will not lodge a tax return'. Unless specific exemptions are allowed and announced, under the current proposed rule change, any tax resident of Thailand who remits into Thailand more than 160K in 2024, is 'technjcally required to lodge a tax return.  Under any DTA in place, that person can claim a 'tax credit' for taxes already paid in their home country, and/or they can claim that the money involved is not subject to income tax in Thailand. But it is up to the Thai RD to decide that - not the taxpayer. 

 

Now I am not trying to be a 'drama queen' but all you have to do is check the internet websites of any tax accountant/lawyer in Thailand - they are all publishing details of what this change means.  That is why so many Thais are complaining - this change has massive implcations across a wide range of people - not just Expats - parents getting sent money by their children working overseas just for a start - Thai businesses who have invested overseas and given only 3-4 months notice of a change - and so many others.

 

By all means do not panic - but do not tell me this change means nothing - it is massive - just look on the web - there is more every day. That is why the Thai RD are scrambling to sort it all out and publish details of the exemptions and how the implementation will be managed and when it will take affect. Very likely they will defer implemntation - maybe 'grandfather' existing business investments - who knows.  If you have lived here a while you will know that 'saving face' is everything - and right now the Thai RD mangement has egg and mud and more, all over themselves.

 

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I will Quote what I said - "Unless the Immigration decide to............." 

 

 

Unfounded speculation AKA fearmongering

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Unfounded speculation AKA fearmongering

Sad person you are mate.  Dont bother responding I wont see it.

[UKresonant]

First question has the new requirement come into force or is it start or end of 2024 please?

 

It is more like an old way of doing will expire, in that (for example) if you rolled up income in a bank in home country or outside Thailand during 2022 and waited until 2023 to remit it to Thailand, in would be considered as savings coming into Thailand. That automatic assumption  will expire after 31st December this year. So money remitted in during 2024, will be much more complex to show as savings, as opposed to income, should you need to do a tax return (first one affected will be the early 2025 one...).

Edited November 12, 2023 by UKresonant

[The Cyclist]

15 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Sad person you are mate.  Dont bother responding I wont see it.

 

 

I am a sad person for not buying into your doom & gloom opinion ?
 

I think that says more about you, than it does about me.

[Sheryl]

12 hours ago, UKresonant said:

First question has the new requirement come into force or is it start or end of 2024 please?

 

It is more like an old way of doing will expire, in that (for example) if you rolled up income in a bank in home country or outside Thailand during 2022 and waited until 2023 to remit it to Thailand, in would be considered as savings coming into Thailand. That automatic assumption  will expire after 31st December this year. So money remitted in during 2024, will be much more complex to show as savings, as opposed to income, should you need to do a tax return (first one affected will be the early 2025 one...).

 

it comes into effect on 1 January 2024. Monies remitted from that time onward will not automatically be exempt just because it was remitted in a different year than earned. if it was earned after you became a Thai tax resident, even if in a prior year, then it is taxable unless exempted under the terms of your country's DTA with Thailand.

 

Should note that DTAs, broadly speaking, can do 2 things: (1) they may exempt specific types of income from taxation in one of the two countries (example: US Social Security, UK Government (but not State) pensions) and    (2) they provide relief from double taxation: if you have income taxable in both countries, any tax paid in one can serve as a credit to reduce tax in the other.

 

The first filing period in which this would apply would be 1st quarter 2025. It remains to be seen if there will be any change to tax forms etc to enable people to declare remittance source.

 

Savings that were earned prior to becoming a Thai tax resident are exempt.  Unknown at this point how one would declare that if required to file.

 

There have been no changes to filing requirements i.e. it remains the case that you are nto required to file if you owe no tax.

[The Cyclist]

12 hours ago, UKresonant said:

First question has the new requirement come into force or is it start or end of 2024 please?

 

Effective from the 01 Jan 2024.

 

The sensible thing to do is only remit money to Thailand after  the 01 Jan 2024 which is covered by a DTA or  you can easily prove that it has been taxed in the UK

 

Remitting grey area  money after 01 Jan 2024 is only asking to be potentially caught up in a whole world of pain with the Thai taxman.

 

Why would anyone want to risk that ?

[VocalNeal]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Effective from the 01 Jan 2024.

 

The sensible thing to do is only remit money to Thailand after  the 01 Jan 2024 which is covered by a DTA or  you can easily prove that it has been taxed in the UK

 

Remitting grey area  money after 01 Jan 2024 is only asking to be potentially caught up in a whole world of pain with the Thai taxman.

 

Why would anyone want to risk that ?

 

You do know that there are gullible people reading this forum who will actually believe that.