Israel and Hamas fight house-to-house battles across Gaza

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Take your conspiracy theories with you, not wanted here

 

That porous soil inevitably permits salt intrusion into ground water is a conspiracy theory now? Wow.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

That porous soil inevitably permits salt intrusion into ground water is a conspiracy theory now? Wow.

[ezzra]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Israel is winning. Hamas and their terrorist supporters are losing.

The IDF is killing more and more terrorists everyday - eventually they will kill a lot of them - hopefully all of them.

The Hamas PR is failing - except with the woke liberals in UN and the ignorants in the West who believe their lies.

War is War - and it was started by Hamas - and it will be finished by Israel.

 

Sadly, Israel is NOT winning as Hamas got Israel by the short and curly with the hostages issue, Israel who place an outmost 

value and importance of it's citizens lives and welfare, unlike the Hamas, is about to enter a deal many israelis are not

happy about just in order to release 40-50 hostages in return for thousands of arch terrorists and a paus in the campaign 

which Israel will pay dearly for it, 

A lot of politics goes into such decision maily in Israel to preserve political clout and government positions,

time will tell where this 'deal' will lead...

[placnx]

On 1/15/2024 at 6:56 PM, Morch said:

 

 

 

@ozimoron

 

You keep making these nonsense posts, over and over again - maybe you really don't get it, maybe you're too immersed in the Hamas narrative, maybe you hope repetition will make it stick. I don't know, I don't really care.

 

You do not get to call what are war crimes, and as there is/was no official investigation regarding such, all you have to offer are opinions and hot air. That you try to present these as decided facts is dishonest. That you do so despite being shown that this is incorrect, is despicable.

 

You have not provided any support. Complaints, including by South Africa, are not 'it', and even South Africa's complain was not decided yet. Moreover, it will not be decided for years to come, even if the court does issue some injunction. You know all this, and still spew the propaganda. Chomsky does not decide what's a war crime and what's not. I challenge to to prove he is.

Now that the ICJ has issued a preliminary ruling, the government of Israel is on trial for genocide.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

Oh, I thought he was claiming that the IDF had actually conducted soil sampling before deciding to salt the earth. It appears that is not the case and that it was just made up claptrap to minimize an apparent war crime.

 

@ozimoron

 

Goes on about yet another imaginary 'war crime', got the audacity to blame others for 'made up claptrap'.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Israel is winning. Hamas and their terrorist supporters are losing.

The IDF is killing more and more terrorists everyday - eventually they will kill a lot of them - hopefully all of them.

The Hamas PR is failing - except with the woke liberals in UN and the ignorants in the West who believe their lies.

War is War - and it was started by Hamas - and it will be finished by Israel.

 

 

Winning how?

Are the hostages any closer to being released? Has Hamas surrendered? Been defeated?

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, placnx said:

Now that the ICJ has issued a preliminary ruling, the government of Israel is on trial for genocide.

 

In your imagination, perhaps. In reality, that's not true. The court did not actually say that there was a 'genocide' - that's you guys being too eager and jumping the gun.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, ezzra said:

Sadly, Israel is NOT winning as Hamas got Israel by the short and curly with the hostages issue, Israel who place an outmost 

value and importance of it's citizens lives and welfare, unlike the Hamas, is about to enter a deal many israelis are not

happy about just in order to release 40-50 hostages in return for thousands of arch terrorists and a paus in the campaign 

which Israel will pay dearly for it, 

A lot of politics goes into such decision maily in Israel to preserve political clout and government positions,

time will tell where this 'deal' will lead...

Some of us will be cheering if the israelis are forced to accept a ceasefire, but I suspect the conflict isn't going well for them to even consider it- so much for never stopping till every Hamas is destroyed!

[Skipalongcassidy]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Some of us will be cheering if the israelis are forced to accept a ceasefire, but I suspect the conflict isn't going well for them to even consider it- so much for never stopping till every Hamas is destroyed!

You say that as if it a bad thing... its not!

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

You say that as if it a bad thing... its not!

 

People like you are why Israel is being prosecuted by the ICJ.

[Skipalongcassidy]

19 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

People like you are why Israel is being prosecuted by the ICJ.

And people like you are the reason terrorists continue to terrorize...

[ozimoron]

On 2/2/2024 at 5:21 AM, Skipalongcassidy said:

And people like you are the reason terrorists continue to terrorize...

 

You explictly support the genocide of Palestinians. I don't support Hamas.

[Bkk Brian]

Well who would have guessed, Hamas currently gives a no no after all the current negotiations. Although seeing as they always lie who knows. 

 

Hamas to Arab media: There is no approval from our side regarding a ceasefire agreement

Qatari Foreign Ministry spokesperson announced Thursday evening that Israel agreed to the ceasefire proposal. 

While initially their were reports of an initial confirmation that Hamas has approved the agreement, this was later denied by Hamas to Arab media.

Palestinian source that leads a faction within the Gaza Strip was quoted in Arab medias saying “There is no agreement on the framework yet, and Hamas has significant reservation. The Qatari statement is rushed and incorrect.”

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1706808918-qatar-says-hamas-gives-initial-approval-for-hostage-deal-with-israel

[ozimoron]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Well who would have guessed, Hamas currently gives a no no after all the current negotiations. Although seeing as they always lie who knows. 

 

Hamas to Arab media: There is no approval from our side regarding a ceasefire agreement

Qatari Foreign Ministry spokesperson announced Thursday evening that Israel agreed to the ceasefire proposal. 

While initially their were reports of an initial confirmation that Hamas has approved the agreement, this was later denied by Hamas to Arab media.

Palestinian source that leads a faction within the Gaza Strip was quoted in Arab medias saying “There is no agreement on the framework yet, and Hamas has significant reservation. The Qatari statement is rushed and incorrect.”

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1706808918-qatar-says-hamas-gives-initial-approval-for-hostage-deal-with-israel

 

Of course not. Their conditions were not met. How many times does this need to be explained to you?

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Of course not. Their conditions were not met. How many times does this need to be explained to you?

Up pops the Hamas spokesman again. What are all their conditions and why on earth should they all be met? Explain that to me with the information you have.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Up pops the Hamas spokesman again. What are all their conditions and why on earth should they all be met? Explain that to me with the information you have.

 

They used the words "permanent ceasefire" for a start. This has been raked over time and time again. You are continuing to harass.

[Bkk Brian]

Not sure wrapping up will be permanent, bit like Northern Gaza.

 

Defense minister vows army will push south to Rafah as Khan Younis offensive wraps up

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant vowed Thursday that the Israeli military will reach and dismantle Hamas’s Rafah Brigade, just as it is currently working to do to its battalions in the Khan Younis area of southern Gaza.

Gallant stated that ongoing operations have severely weakened the terror group’s ability to wage war and that the pressure will force them to agree to release hostages they kidnapped during their October 7 attack on Israel.

“Hamas’s Khan Younis Brigade boasted that it would stand against the IDF, now it’s falling apart, and I am telling you here, we are completing the mission in Khan Younis and we will also reach Rafah and eliminate everyone there who is a terrorist who is trying to harm us,” Gallant told troops of the IDF’s 98th Division during his visit to Khan Younis Wednesday.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/defense-minister-vows-army-will-push-south-to-rafah-as-khan-younis-offensive-wraps-up

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

They used the words "permanent ceasefire" for a start. This has been raked over time and time again. You are continuing to harass.

Yes I know about their "permanent ceasefire" demand, everyone does, what else? you responded to me. Now accusing me of harassing you. You have lost the plot again. So early in the morning.

 

You told me last night you put me on ignore, make your mind up. You've been asked a question. You claim to know it, so.................

 

When will you demand they do as the ICJ ordered them to?

[Morch]

4 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

People like you are why Israel is being prosecuted by the ICJ.

 

@ozimoron

 

Israel is not 'prosecuted by the ICJ' for saying destroying Hamas is a good thing.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

You explictly support the genocide of Palestinians. I don't support Hamas. You are disgusting.

 

@ozimoron

 

I read his post as if referencing Hamas, not all Palestinians.

As for you not supporting Hamas - posting Hamas talking points, ignoring parts of Hamas's agenda that are uncomfortable, describing them as 'freedom fighters' and so on. All that might give a different impression than you're shooting for.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

They used the words "permanent ceasefire" for a start. This has been raked over time and time again. You are continuing to harass.

 

@ozimoron

 

Them Hamas talking points, again.

 

Why would Israel accept a condition which prescribes full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, without hostages being released, even? Just one example. Somehow, you embrace Hamas's narrative, see their conditions as justified, fair, reasonable - and then complain about your being labeled a Hamas supporter. Maybe some reflection is in order, although I doubt you're into that much.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

20 hours ago, ezzra said:

Sadly, Israel is NOT winning as Hamas got Israel by the short and curly with the hostages issue, Israel who place an outmost 

value and importance of it's citizens lives and welfare, unlike the Hamas, is about to enter a deal many israelis are not

happy about just in order to release 40-50 hostages in return for thousands of arch terrorists and a paus in the campaign 

which Israel will pay dearly for it, 

A lot of politics goes into such decision maily in Israel to preserve political clout and government positions,

time will tell where this 'deal' will lead...

I am extremely sad to hear that - obviously that is why Hamas and its supporters took hostages after their atrocities.

IMO any 'trade' of hostages for Hamas terrorists held in Israeli jails is a win for the terrorists and must not happen.

If Israel does that trade, and then does not attack and kill all the terrorists in Gaza - they will have lost me forever.

I will never support Hamas and like terrorists, but like many others I am sick of this crap about Israel year after year, decade after decade.

Israel must either destroy them once and for all, or pharkk off out of my life forever - I will not give a pharrk anymore.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Winning how?

Are the hostages any closer to being released? Has Hamas surrendered? Been defeated?

As per my last response to another poster - winning means killing all Hamas and their supporters.

Making a deal with the devil for hostages by giving up terrorists is not winning.

Forcing Hamas to surrender or die and to give up the hostages is winning.

[ozimoron]

11 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

As per my last response to another poster - winning means killing all Hamas and their supporters.

Making a deal with the devil for hostages by giving up terrorists is not winning.

Forcing Hamas to surrender or die and to give up the hostages is winning.

 

Meaning you include their families in your kill list.

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

As per my last response to another poster - winning means killing all Hamas and their supporters.

Making a deal with the devil for hostages by giving up terrorists is not winning.

Forcing Hamas to surrender or die and to give up the hostages is winning.

 

Other than in fiery statements by some Israeli politicians, there's no likelihood, and little possibility of 'killing all Hamas and their supporters'. The IDF, and the more level-headed Israeli leaders acknowledge that. Even if this was referencing combatants only it would be a very tall order. As for 'supporters' - how far does that go? What sort of 'support' merits death? Judging from the tone of your posts, I guess you're into extremes - which is neither realistic, nor in Israel's wider interests, even.

 

There where hostage deals with the Hamas (and before them, other Palestinian terrorist organizations). So saying 'no deals' is a bit odd. Even in this case - there were already such exchanges earlier on in the war. Not sure what you're on about, really. What I do sense is that you do not get how central this issue is to Israel's ethos. The notion that 'no one gets left behind' etc. is one of the core tenets when addressing such issues. Netanyahu, though actions past and present does this bedrock a whole lot of damage, in return for dubious short term political gains.

 

It is not clear that Hamas could be forced to surrender. It is unlikely Hamas could be made to give up the hostages. This is not what I wish for, but how things are. A realistic take. Hamas can be severely hurt, and just maybe effectively dismantled as a major threat in the Gaza Strip. But this does not really address the hostage issue.

 

I don't think that there is a clear way for Israel to 'win' this. Whichever path is chosen, there will be some 'loss' involved. I'm glad I'm not the one who needs to make the choice.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Other than in fiery statements by some Israeli politicians, there's no likelihood, and little possibility of 'killing all Hamas and their supporters'. The IDF, and the more level-headed Israeli leaders acknowledge that. Even if this was referencing combatants only it would be a very tall order. As for 'supporters' - how far does that go? What sort of 'support' merits death? Judging from the tone of your posts, I guess you're into extremes - which is neither realistic, nor in Israel's wider interests, even.

 

There where hostage deals with the Hamas (and before them, other Palestinian terrorist organizations). So saying 'no deals' is a bit odd. Even in this case - there were already such exchanges earlier on in the war. Not sure what you're on about, really. What I do sense is that you do not get how central this issue is to Israel's ethos. The notion that 'no one gets left behind' etc. is one of the core tenets when addressing such issues. Netanyahu, though actions past and present does this bedrock a whole lot of damage, in return for dubious short term political gains.

 

It is not clear that Hamas could be forced to surrender. It is unlikely Hamas could be made to give up the hostages. This is not what I wish for, but how things are. A realistic take. Hamas can be severely hurt, and just maybe effectively dismantled as a major threat in the Gaza Strip. But this does not really address the hostage issue.

 

I don't think that there is a clear way for Israel to 'win' this. Whichever path is chosen, there will be some 'loss' involved. I'm glad I'm not the one who needs to make the choice.

I hear you and that makes complete sense. But after decades of settlements and appeasements and deals - IMO time us up.  If Israel does not force home their current advantage and destroy Hamas and its supporters (literally), IMO that means they do not want to actually and finally resolve the situation. IMO it means they want a constant state of conflict with the terrorists for decades and decades.  IMO that is akin to invading Europe in WW2 only to withdraw after liberating France etc. - and allow the Naxis to rebuild and do it all again. The biggest mistake made in WW2 was not continuing further East and also destroying the communists in USSR.  Many cyncial pundits claim that the powerful military industrial complex in USA decided behind the scenes that there was a lot more money to be made if 'conflict' continued for decades and decades to come. Perhaps Israel is also seeing the benefit in cotinuing the conflicts - thereby gaining even more ongoing financial and political support from USA.   Either Israel destroys Hamas etc. now, or they will destroy a lot of their current 'goodwill'. They will have certainly lost my support and IMO a lot of others too. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

34 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Meaning you include their families in your kill list.

What say you about the 'families' killed by Hamas? You are OK with that??

Keep in mind, the killing of Hamas 'civilians' by IDF is not deliberate it is accidental - it was very deliberate by Hamas.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear you and that makes complete sense. But after decades of settlements and appeasements and deals - IMO time us up.  If Israel does not force home their current advantage and destroy Hamas and its supporters (literally), IMO that means they do not want to actually and finally resolve the situation. IMO it means they want a constant state of conflict with the terrorists for decades and decades.  IMO that is akin to invading Europe in WW2 only to withdraw after liberating France etc. - and allow the Naxis to rebuild and do it all again. The biggest mistake made in WW2 was not continuing further East and also destroying the communists in USSR.  Many cyncial pundits claim that the powerful military industrial complex in USA decided behind the scenes that there was a lot more money to be made if 'conflict' continued for decades and decades to come. Perhaps Israel is also seeing the benefit in cotinuing the conflicts - thereby gaining even more ongoing financial and political support from USA.   Either Israel destroys Hamas etc. now, or they will destroy a lot of their current 'goodwill'. They will have certainly lost my support and IMO a lot of others too. 

 

It has become evident that there are plenty of extremist zionists on this board who support the genocide of Palestinians. Now being presented with credible evidence of genocidal intent by their leaders they are opening coming out supporting that genocide.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

What say you about the 'families' killed by Hamas? You are OK with that??

Keep in mind, the killing of Hamas 'civilians' by IDF is not deliberate it is accidental - it was very deliberate by Hamas.

 

I ma not OK with that and I have condemned Hamas on numerous occasions. Two wrongs don't make a right. Unlike you, I see war crimes on both sides.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear you and that makes complete sense. But after decades of settlements and appeasements and deals - IMO time us up.  If Israel does not force home their current advantage and destroy Hamas and its supporters (literally), IMO that means they do not want to actually and finally resolve the situation. IMO it means they want a constant state of conflict with the terrorists for decades and decades.  IMO that is akin to invading Europe in WW2 only to withdraw after liberating France etc. - and allow the Naxis to rebuild and do it all again. The biggest mistake made in WW2 was not continuing further East and also destroying the communists in USSR.  Many cyncial pundits claim that the powerful military industrial complex in USA decided behind the scenes that there was a lot more money to be made if 'conflict' continued for decades and decades to come. Perhaps Israel is also seeing the benefit in cotinuing the conflicts - thereby gaining even more ongoing financial and political support from USA.   Either Israel destroys Hamas etc. now, or they will destroy a lot of their current 'goodwill'. They will have certainly lost my support and IMO a lot of others too. 

 

I wouldn't know what settlements, appeasements and deals you're on about. It's not like Israel was all in for peace and it didn't work out. That's not even a remotely accurate description of events. Both sides contributed to things being what they are. Both sides got their extremists and hardliners who do their best to thwart compromises.

 

You can push the narrative you hold as much as you like - but bottom line, there were deals even during this way, and there are ongoing negotiations as we post. While most Israelis loath Hamas, there is significant public support for bringing back the hostages, and acknowledgement that there's a gap between politicians statements regarding the war, and what's actually realistic.

 

Sorry, not interested in the Nazi comparisons to either directions. It got little to do with the actual situation, just serves to muddy the waters and flame. Same goes for MIC references - these are usually either off mark, or very simplistic. Sometimes both.

 

It is surely in Netanyahu's personal interest that the war goes on, at this time. If the war ends, he's bound to face the consequences. So long as it goes on, he can hold on to power, and wait things out. Accordingly he's currently more focused on derailing the negotiations, renovating the pool at his private residence at tax payers expense, and trying out various alternative narratives in which he's not only free of responsibility for 7/10, but actually the one who warned about it beforehand.

 

I think it's important to differentiate between what politicians say, and reality.