Retirement P2S - Change from 65K/m to 800K in bank

[007 RED]

I’m sure that this has been raised before, but unfortunately my searches via Google and AN have only revealed the procedure the other way around e.g. changing from 800K in bank to 65K monthly international funds transfer.

 

Background:  For the past 13 years I’ve been on annual renewal of Permission to Stay based upon my original Non-O (Retirement) visa.  I have been using the 65K per month international transfer into a Thai Bank method since the British Embassy stopped issuing its letter to Immigration.   Next renewal is due in September 2024.

 

Considering the possibility of the Revenue Department taxing my incoming internationally transferred funds next year, I’ve decided to change my annual renewal method to 800K in the bank and thereby lessen the amount that I need to transfer into Thailand each month to hopefully reduce my tax burden.   I already have 800K (plus) in a savings account which has been there for several years, so there should be no problem with ‘seasoning’.

 

My question is:  Do I need to continue making 65K monthly international transfers into my Thai bank account until my next renewal is due, or can I reduce this amount now and just rely upon 800K (plus) when I do my next renewal?

 

I appreciate that each Immigration Office (and possibly individual officers) will have its own interpretation of how such a change can be achieved, but I would welcome any guidance/experience from AN members who have recently gone through this transition.

[DrJack54]

25 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

I appreciate that each Immigration Office (and possibly individual officers) will have its own interpretation of how such a change can be achieved, but I would welcome any guidance/experience from AN members who have recently gone through this transition.

Currently I am doing the opposite at CW.

My recent extension was Nov last year.

I have decided to maintain the 800k in the bank and in parallel start the transfers.

This means I have both options covered if any issue from immigration office.

 

In your situation I would do the same just to cover all bases, especially as you mentioned that you have the 800k already here in Thailand.

 

[007 RED]

33 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Currently I am doing the opposite at CW.

My recent extension was Nov last year.

I have decided to maintain the 800k in the bank and in parallel start the transfers.

This means I have both options covered if any issue from immigration office.

 

In your situation I would do the same just to cover all bases, especially as you mentioned that you have the 800k already here in Thailand.

 

As you have suggested, I'm still maintaining the monthly international transfers, but it would be nice to know if that is really necessary.

 

I appreciate that Immigration most likely wont agree with my logic, but my thinking is:-

 

With the 65K international transfer method, they (Immigration) are looking to see that you have made the correct international transfers for each of the previous 12 months.  Not what you might transfer in the forthcoming 12 months.  Provided you have the necessary documented evidence in your bank statement of your past transfers, they (Immigration) will renew your Permission to Stay for the forthcoming 12 months. 

 

So, if I have 800K (plus) deposited in a savings account prior to the date that the latest Permission to Stay was granted, should that not be acceptable for the next renewal?

 

Hence the reason for my post, to see what any other AN members have experienced when changing from monthly international transfers to 800K in the bank.

 

 

[lopburi3]

Make sure they know you are using income method to extend if you continue to keep 800k in bank account - had issue this year as have always used income but had 800k in account at last extension (in case of any transfer issues) and took the 800k lower in less than 3 months after extension - so this year immigration believed I had failed to maintain required amount.  Seems they do not have any indication of which method you used without reviewing last years paperwork.  All was well once that checked.  But have to mention each year using income as once they see the 800k they believe that is to be used.

 

Edit:  key to knowing they using income at CW seems to be officer underlines each monthly transfer on bank statement for reviewing officers check.

Edited December 10, 2023 by lopburi3

[DrJack54]

https://aseannow.com/topic/1178930-obligations-switching-from-income-to-deposit-extensions/

[007 RED]

9 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Make sure they know you are using income method to extend if you continue to keep 800k in bank account - had issue this year as have always used income but had 800k in account at last extension (in case of any transfer issues) and took the 800k lower in less than 3 months after extension - so this year immigration believed I had failed to maintain required amount.  Seems they do not have any indication of which method you used without reviewing last years paperwork.  All was well once that checked.  But have to mention each year using income as once they see the 800k they believe that is to be used.

 

Edit:  key to knowing they using income at CW seems to be officer underlines each monthly transfer on bank statement for reviewing officers check.

Thanks for your advice/observations.

 

I've been thinking about taking a trip to the Immigration Office and posing the question in the hope of getting the line from the 'horse's mouth'.  The only trouble is that what the senior IO indicates now may well be different come September next year.

 

Interesting point that you made that the Immigration Officer may not have any indication what method I used for my previous P2S.  I just looked at my passport (Photo below) and noticed that for the first time for the previous years, there is a notation (which I have highlighted) indicating in Thai that money abroad (according to Google Translate).

[007 RED]

6 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

https://aseannow.com/topic/1178930-obligations-switching-from-income-to-deposit-extensions/

Again, many thanks.  Its a few years old and there are some conflicting suggestions/recommendations e.g. yes maintain international transfers until next renewal, and no need to maintain the transfers if the 800K is in the bank at the time of the current renewal.

 

I am mindful that each Immigration Office/Officer sets their own criteria, and that this can change from day to day, depending what side of the bed they got out that morning.  That said, I may well take a trip to my Immigration Office (about an hours drive away) and have a chat with the senior there to try and get her ruling on the matter.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I was hoping that if I don't need to maintain the 65K monthly international transfers to satisfy Immigrations requirements, and only transfer funds necessary to day-today living, this might help reduce any tax burden should the Revenue Department implement taxing incoming international funds. 

 

[lopburi3]

2 hours ago, 007 RED said:

Thanks for your advice/observations.

 

I've been thinking about taking a trip to the Immigration Office and posing the question in the hope of getting the line from the 'horse's mouth'.  The only trouble is that what the senior IO indicates now may well be different come September next year.

 

Interesting point that you made that the Immigration Officer may not have any indication what method I used for my previous P2S.  I just looked at my passport (Photo below) and noticed that for the first time for the previous years, there is a notation (which I have highlighted) indicating in Thai that money abroad (according to Google Translate).

Interesting as mine was late June and also has (different wording) short notation that wife translates as "money transfers".  So looks like they have corrected that issue.

[Aldo123]

I suspect the rules for O-Visa retirement extension will change soon - in other words the monthly amount will increase - if you are planning to remain in Thailand longer than six months. As of 1 January they would be taxing that 65k, so they might raise the minimum to 80k in order to deduct tax from the remittance, while still ensuring you are pushing the 65k into the local economy.

 

My own thoughts are to adhere to whatever amount is the minimum remittance required, and also maintain the 800k (so both as some others above are doing). Then use foreign credit cards to pay for everything I possible can (groceries, car insurance, flights, restaurants, etc.) to keep the tax bill as low as possible. But if they try to tax all global income, I'll leave. They'd be crazy to do that, but logic has never been a strong suit here. Always be prepared for the unexpected.

[keithkarmann]

Sorry for jumping onto your posting but if converting to the 800000 baht and doing away with the 65000 per month I would still have to bring in more than 65000 baht. So my question is to reduce any possible tax which may be levied, would it be a good idea to split the monthly input in two, sending 50% in my name and 50% in my wife's name? Personally I don't think they will tax income that has already been taxed but there may be a difference between the tax paid in my home country and the tax levied in Thailand.

[Theowl58]

Hello, your story seems complicated to me. If you have a non-immigrant retirement O and you have at least 800K in the bank and you don't touch it there is no problem. All you need to do is show the very recent copy of the bank's latest Passbook statement. If on top of that you have income or a pension, it's even better. Personally I started with an OA non-immigrant multiple entry pension with compulsory insurance. To extend this visa you just need to have 800K in a Thai bank and compulsory health insurance. We do not ask you to have monthly income. It's either one or the other. As I return to my country of origin for two months every year I take the opportunity to apply for a new Visa. I can also extend it on site. What is very interesting about OA is the multiple inputs.

[Scouse123]

I think and I CERTAINLY HOPE, that posters are reading into this taxing business completely wrong.

 

The Thai government cannot tax you on incoming funds from your home country that have already been taxed or your pensions.

 

I also don't believe they are aiming this at foreigners residing in the country, more likely, at Thais that are circumnavigating the tax system in Thailand by spending a certain amount of time abroad.

 

Anyway, I don't even believe this silly plan will come to fruition and I think its just sound bytes and white noise.

[ningnong]

21 hours ago, 007 RED said:

I just looked at my passport (Photo below) and noticed that for the first time for the previous years, there is a notation (which I have highlighted) indicating in Thai that money abroad (according to Google Translate).

A more accurate translation เงินโอนต่างประเทศ = Foreign money transfer

[007 RED]

3 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

I suspect the rules for O-Visa retirement extension will change soon - in other words the monthly amount will increase - if you are planning to remain in Thailand longer than six months. As of 1 January they would be taxing that 65k, so they might raise the minimum to 80k in order to deduct tax from the remittance, while still ensuring you are pushing the 65k into the local economy.

Sorry, but I would be interested to know on what factual basis do you suspect that the rules for Non-O Extension of permission to stay will change soon?  There have been rumours for the past year that Immigration are re-writing the Immigration Act, but so far nothing has materialised from either Immigration HQ, or the Ministry of Interior, or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 

 

4 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

My own thoughts are to adhere to whatever amount is the minimum remittance required, and also maintain the 800k (so both as some others above are doing). Then use foreign credit cards to pay for everything I possible can (groceries, car insurance, flights, restaurants, etc.) to keep the tax bill as low as possible. But if they try to tax all global income, I'll leave. They'd be crazy to do that, but logic has never been a strong suit here. Always be prepared for the unexpected.

As I asked in my original post, what are the procedures for changing from the monthly international transfers into a Thai bank account method to the 800K in a Thai bank savings account.  The problem in simple terms is, do I need to maintain the monthly transfers until my next renewal (September 24), or is it OK for me to lower that amount to just cover basic life expenses and hope that my local Immigration Office will accept that the 800K (plus) in my Thai savings account has been there for several years, and grant me permission to stay for another year (Sept 24 to Sep25).

 

I'm not sure that using a foreign credit card to pay for all and sundry, as you suggest, is going to be financially worthwhile bearing in mind that most credit card exchange rates are poor, plus may banks impose a surcharge.  In addition, many Thai shops and service providers impose a 3% surcharge for use of credit cards.  In a year, it may be better off paying the tax if it is enforced.

[007 RED]

4 hours ago, keithkarmann said:

Sorry for jumping onto your posting but if converting to the 800000 baht and doing away with the 65000 per month I would still have to bring in more than 65000 baht. So my question is to reduce any possible tax which may be levied, would it be a good idea to split the monthly input in two, sending 50% in my name and 50% in my wife's name? Personally I don't think they will tax income that has already been taxed but there may be a difference between the tax paid in my home country and the tax levied in Thailand.

Thanks for your response.  Like you, I currently transfer more than the minimum 65K per month.  However, we (my wife and I) are careful spenders and we never need all of the funds which I've transferred into my foreign currency account.  This has allowed me over the years build up a very healthy savings account which is there for that 'rainy day'.

 

I like your thinking regarding transferring 50% of your transferable funds to your wife.  Yes, if the Revenue Department do enforce the tax rule of foreign transfers, your potential tax liability will be reduced.  But, your wife may now have to pay tax if she is not already on the amount that you transfer to her.  Obviously, if she is already paying tax (like my wife does), then her tax liability may well increase substantially.  It will be a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, Theowl58 said:

Hello, your story seems complicated to me. If you have a non-immigrant retirement O and you have at least 800K in the bank and you don't touch it there is no problem. All you need to do is show the very recent copy of the bank's latest Passbook statement. If on top of that you have income or a pension, it's even better. Personally I started with an OA non-immigrant multiple entry pension with compulsory insurance. To extend this visa you just need to have 800K in a Thai bank and compulsory health insurance. We do not ask you to have monthly income. It's either one or the other. As I return to my country of origin for two months every year I take the opportunity to apply for a new Visa. I can also extend it on site. What is very interesting about OA is the multiple inputs.

The 'story' as you put it is not complicated at all.  As I mentioned in my original post, I been renewing my Non-O (Retirement) permission to stay for the past 13 years based upon transferring the equivalent of 65,000 THB (plus) per month to a Thai bank account from an overseas source.  I also have savings account which hold substantially more than 800,000 THB for the past several years.

 

To put it as simply as possible, I want to change from the monthly money transfer method to money in the bank method.  What I'm asking is, is it OK to reduce the amount that I transfer so as to cover basic living expenses and when I go for my next renewal in September 2024 can I just present my updated savings account book (plus certified letter from the bank), or will Immigration expect to see me continuing money transfers up until my new submission.

 

The problem is that with the money transfer method, the permission to stay is based upon retrospective transfers which have been made in the past year, not what you might transfer in the forthcoming year.  

 

For your information:  With Non-O (Retirement) Permission to Stay there is no requirement to have compulsory health insurance thank goodness because at my age 77 such insurance is virtually unobtainable or so prohibitively expensive with so many exclusions.  Hence the reason why I have a very healthy savings account for that 'rainy day'.

[hotandsticky]

3 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

The 'story' as you put it is not complicated at all.  As I mentioned in my original post, I been renewing my Non-O (Retirement) permission to stay for the past 13 years based upon transferring the equivalent of 65,000 THB (plus) per month to a Thai bank account from an overseas source.  I also have savings account which hold substantially more than 800,000 THB for the past several years.

 

To put it as simply as possible, I want to change from the monthly money transfer method to money in the bank method.  What I'm asking is, is it OK to reduce the amount that I transfer so as to cover basic living expenses and when I go for my next renewal in September 2024 can I just present my updated savings account book (plus certified letter from the bank), or will Immigration expect to see me continuing money transfers up until my new submission.

 

The problem is that with the money transfer method, the permission to stay is based upon retrospective transfers which have been made in the past year, not what you might transfer in the forthcoming year.  

 

For your information:  With Non-O (Retirement) Permission to Stay there is no requirement to have compulsory health insurance thank goodness because at my age 77 such insurance is virtually unobtainable or so prohibitively expensive with so many exclusions.  Hence the reason why I have a very healthy savings account for that 'rainy day'.

 

 

You need to maintain monthly transfers of 65k until renewal - then also evidence 800k for 2 months.

 

Immigration FIRST check that you have complied with the terms of last time's approval - then you can apply on the new basis.

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

I think and I CERTAINLY HOPE, that posters are reading into this taxing business completely wrong.

 

The Thai government cannot tax you on incoming funds from your home country that have already been taxed or your pensions.

 

I also don't believe they are aiming this at foreigners residing in the country, more likely, at Thais that are circumnavigating the tax system in Thailand by spending a certain amount of time abroad.

 

Anyway, I don't even believe this silly plan will come to fruition and I think its just sound bytes and white noise.

I, like many other expats here in Thailand are hoping that this is a 'storm in a teacup', and that it does not become a reality.

 

Although Thailand has Tax Treaties with 60 plus countries which are intended to avoid the possibility of double taxation, knowing the Thai Government, they may well try to enforce the clause which requires that transfers come from savings accounts, where the funds have been for 12 months prior to being transferred.

 

I'm not holding my breath, but just trying to think ahead for the worse case scenario. 

[007 RED]

5 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

You need to maintain monthly transfers of 65k until renewal - then also evidence 800k for 2 months.

 

Immigration FIRST check that you have complied with the terms of last time's approval - then you can apply on the new basis.

Many thanks.  That is what I am expecting. 

 

May I ask, is your comment based upon personal experience? 

 

I am considering a trip to my local Immigration Office (not that local actually - 1 hour plus drive each way) and having a chat with the Senior there who has been very helpful in the past.  The trouble is, when it comes to my renewal next September, she may have been transferred and the new incumbent may well have a different view. 

[hotandsticky]

9 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Many thanks.  That is what I am expecting. 

 

May I ask, is your comment based upon personal experience? 

 

I am considering a trip to my local Immigration Office (not that local actually - 1 hour plus drive each way) and having a chat with the Senior there who has been very helpful in the past.  The trouble is, when it comes to my renewal next September, she may have been transferred and the new incumbent may well have a different view. 

 

 

Yes, personal experience at Jomtien.

[khunPer]

On 12/10/2023 at 7:34 AM, 007 RED said:

My question is:  Do I need to continue making 65K monthly international transfers into my Thai bank account until my next renewal is due, or can I reduce this amount now and just rely upon 800K (plus) when I do my next renewal?

To my knowledge: Yes.

 

Your annual permission to stay is based on 65k baht being transferred every month. If you don't keep that, your extension of stay is void, which means that you cannot extend it for another year.

 

You will furthermore need 800k baht deposit in the bank two month before you apply for your next extension of stay.

 

However, you could ask you local immigration office, if the will accept a change to deposit-method, before your existing extension of stay expires.

[Brick Top]

I did exactly what your intending and as soon as I received the new Visa extension I stopped transferring the 65,000 every month.

The following year I just showed them the required proof of the 800,000 in my bank and like you I had also had it in my bank for all the time I had been transferring the 65,000.

There were no problems for me and this was at Phuket immigration.

The thing is that now I am in January going to start the 65,000 transfers into Thailand , to enable me to get the Visa extension in February 2025.

I really myself am almost certain that they won't tax us on the 65,000 income method and I am going to send the 800,000 back out to the UK in May 2024 .

The reason for ne is I now prefer to have the 800,000 earning 4.5% interest in the UK

[007 RED]

33 minutes ago, khunPer said:

To my knowledge: Yes.

 

Your annual permission to stay is based on 65k baht being transferred every month. If you don't keep that, your extension of stay is void, which means that you cannot extend it for another year.

 

You will furthermore need 800k baht deposit in the bank two month before you apply for your next extension of stay.

 

However, you could ask you local immigration office, if the will accept a change to deposit-method, before your existing extension of stay expires.

Many thanks for your response.  I have a feeling that you are right in so far that I need to keep making the transfer of funds until my next renewal in September 2024, but as you suggest, I'm going to take a drive to my 'local' Immigration Office and have a chat with the Senior there to get her view on the matter.  She's been very helpful in the past.  The only problem is that if she says that its OK to reduce the amount of funds that I transfer monthly, and rely upon the money in the bank method for my next renewal, you can bet your bottom dollar that she gets transferred and the new boss has the opposite view.  Then I'm up the creek without a paddle.

 

Once again, Thanks.

Edited December 11, 2023 by 007 RED
typo

[007 RED]

Up-Date:

 

Many thanks to those AN members who have provided constructive comments.  Much appreciated.

 

Well, the jury is divided. 50% of AN members who responded indicated that I need to maintain 65K monthly international transfers until I go for my renewal in September next year, the other half say that there’s no need for the monthly transfers and I just have to show that 800K has been in the bank 2 months before going for my renewal.

 

So, as I have mentioned in a couple of my previous posts, I decided to visit my local Immigration Office, which I did this afternoon (well not so local, it’s a 60km drive each way through heavy traffic) and have a chat with the senior there who has been very helpful in the past.

 

Having explained my desire to transfer from the monthly international transfer method to money in the bank method at my next renewal in September 24, she confirmed the following: -

 

1.    I must continue to transfer 65K from an international source to a Thai bank up until the date of submitting my renewal and provide the same proof of these transfers as I have in previous years e.g. 1 year bank statement showing international transfer of funds to Thailand; copy of my foreign account bank book; certified letter from bank confirming that I am the holder of the account and the amount of funds at that date.

 

2.    I must also provide my bank book showing 800K in the account 2 months prior to submitting my renewal, plus a certified letter from the bank confirming that I am the holder of the account and the amount of funds at that date.

 

Then came the shock!  She indicated that as this was to be my first submission for the 800K method, I need to:-

 

1.    Show proof of the origin of the funds in that account.

 

2.    I also need to provide a letter from my Embassy confirming my pension and that the Embassy letter must by authenticated by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 

I explained to her that the funds in my savings account, which amount to several million THB have accumulated over the past 13 years by ‘drip feed’ transfers from my Foreign Currency Account.  There is no way that I will be able to obtain any form of bank statements that will show these transfers dating back more that perhaps the past 12 months.   Because recently these transfers were made via my mobile app, I have some copies of transfer receipts on my phone, which I showed her.

 

Following my comment, she advised that the past 12 months would be acceptable and that I need to print them out and submit them when doing my renewal next year.

 

I pointed out that my Embassy, like several other Embassies, stopped issuing letters confirming pensions several years ago, so there is no way that I can comply with that requirement.

 

She advised that I need to obtain a letter from my pension provider(s) confirming the amount of my pension and that these must be submitted with my renewal application to confirm that I have sufficient funds to live on (God only knows why they need this).

 

I decided to not ask to her questions as to the reason why I must prove where the funds of my 800K in my savings account have come from, or the reason for why I need a letter from my Embassy confirming my pension(s).  I felt that such questions would lead to her ‘digging her heels in’ with a negative outcome.  I left thanking her for her advice.

 

So, in conclusion, I will have to continue transferring 65K (plus) per month from the UK bank account to my Thai Foreign Currency Account up until September next year and ensure that some THB funds are transferred each month to my savings account.  Hopefully my P60s from my pension providers will satisfy her second requirement.

 

All good fun?  

Edited December 13, 2023 by 007 RED
typo

[KannikaP]

If you have 800k in the bank, you still need some transfer on which to live. 65k a month can be spent to the last satang.

Ask you IO if they will accept a Combination Method as Phitsanulok does for me. 400k in the bank and 35k per month = 820k per year. It has worked for me for a few years here.

Edited December 13, 2023 by KannikaP

[scottiejohn]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

If you have 800k in the bank, you still need some transfer on which to live. 65k a month can be spent to the last satang.

Not in CM/CNX!

I have been on the 800,000 for years in a fixed deposit account with no transactions apart from interest in and out and never been asked for any other financial details.

[KannikaP]

13 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Not in CM/CNX!

I have been on the 800,000 for years in a fixed deposit account with no transactions apart from interest in and out and never been asked for any other financial details.

I was not suggesting that the IO would want to see your living expenses, but you still need to get that money from somewhere, and if it cannot be shown as transfers from your country, they may suspect that you are working.

[scottiejohn]

19 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I was not suggesting that the IO would want to see your living expenses, but you still need to get that money from somewhere, and if it cannot be shown as transfers from your country, they may suspect that you are working.

You made it seem that it was a requirement by your IO to show additional income.  My point is that my IO, CM/CNX does not have that requirement.

How does the IO know my daily expenses requirements from overseas.  I could be living off my rich wife, rental income etc!

 

PS;  I do not believe that CM/CNX allow you to split 400,000/35K per month system!  They want either 800,000 or 65K!

Edited December 14, 2023 by scottiejohn