The Problem With EVs

[Issanman]

Interesting and very informative video about the pros and cons of hydrogen usage. 

Hydrogen seems to be an impractical solution for privately owned vehicles.

This lady is pretty damn smart.

 

 

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, Issanman said:

Interesting and very informative video about the pros and cons of hydrogen usage. 

Hydrogen seems to be an impractical solution for privately owned vehicles.

This lady is pretty damn 

 

I would like to hear from the pro Hydrogen posters, especially @Lacessit who I believe is a chemist, their views and challenges to this video. I can imagine that some might say that the technology will advance to offset some of the difficulties presented and yet they won’t acknowledge that battery technology would also similarly progress.

[josephbloggs]

19 hours ago, Issanman said:

Interesting and very informative video about the pros and cons of hydrogen usage. 

Hydrogen seems to be an impractical solution for privately owned vehicles.

This lady is pretty damn smart.

 

 

Thanks for sharing, I found that very interesting and learnt a lot of things I didn't know about hydrogen production and storage.

[Lee65]

Has this consideration been adequately hashed out?  (And I mean adequately, by a capable professional engineer at least.)

 

EVs are heavier than a comparable ICE vehicle.  Therefore EVs require more energy to be moved - and particularly to be accelerated.  If the electricity used to charge the EV is generated from a dirty source, the EV may actually be causing more air pollution per average mile traveled due to this point alone.

 

Someone here is likely to chime in about regenerative braking capturing some of energy which is otherwise lost to heat in deceleration.  Fair point but does not alone suffice to answer the question.  I'd like to see a reasonably thorough treatment using applied physics.  Someone somewhere has no doubt done this - the question is where can it be found.  

[JBChiangRai]

19 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

Has this consideration been adequately hashed out?  (And I mean adequately, by a capable professional engineer at least.)

 

EVs are heavier than a comparable ICE vehicle.  Therefore EVs require more energy to be moved - and particularly to be accelerated.  If the electricity used to charge the EV is generated from a dirty source, the EV may actually be causing more air pollution per average mile traveled due to this point alone.

 

Someone here is likely to chime in about regenerative braking capturing some of energy which is otherwise lost to heat in deceleration.  Fair point but does not alone suffice to answer the question.  I'd like to see a reasonably thorough treatment using applied physics.  Someone somewhere has no doubt done this - the question is where can it be found.  

 

EV's measure their efficiency in terms of kilometers per kilowatt hour.  I have never tried to convert that the equivalent kilometers per liter of fuel but you could do that, either by energy content or by cost.  By cost we know it's a lot cheaper because we know how much it costs to fill up.

 

Air pollution depends on the source of the energy.

Edited January 2 by JBChiangRai

[Lee65]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:56 PM, josephbloggs said:

Home charging is a must, it makes absolutely no sense without that.

 

This might be the most important assertion in the entire thread.  

 

(By "it" is meant EVs I believe.)  

[josephbloggs]

2 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

 

This might be the most important assertion in the entire thread.  

 

(By "it" is meant EVs I believe.)  

Yes, and no one has made any secret of that - EV owners and non EV owners - it is an obvious fact.

[Lee65]

13 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Yes, and no one has made any secret of that - EV owners and non EV owners - it is an obvious fact.

 

So governments are pushing and subsidizing EVs to a subset of the population for which the vehicles may conceivably make sense.

 

It's understandable why a large part of the population will be against EVs since they are paying but cannot benefit because "EVs make no sense without home charging".

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2 by Lee65

[Gweiloman]

13 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

 

So governments are pushing and subsidizing EVs to a subset of the population for which the vehicles may conceivably make sense.

 

It's understandable why a large part of the population will be against EVs since they are paying but cannot benefit because "EVs make no sense without home charging".

 

 

 

 

A lot depends on which part of the world you are talking about. In Thailand, the majority of car owners live in houses, not condos or apartments. In Singapore, the majority lives in flats but an excellent charging infrastructure means that EV owners are able to charge easily. Remember also that Singapore is only a small country and daily mileage is very little for most people. In the UK, a lot of chargers are being installed at work places where EV owners are able to charge at work. And of the best example is China where the majority live in apartments and yet China has the biggest uptake of EVs outside of Norway. Unlike some other governments, the Chinese government puts its money where its mouth is and has a superb charging infrastructure.

 

This is why cities like Beijing and Shanghai are no longer in the lists of most polluted cities in the world.

[Lee65]

9 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

In Thailand, the majority of car owners live in houses, not condos or apartments.

 

You just made that up didn't you.

 

Along with the rest of the 'facts' in your post.

 

And, unsurprisingly, you missed the point altogether.  But I ain't a gonna try to explain it to you.

[Gweiloman]

4 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

 

You just made that up didn't you.

 

Along with the rest of the 'facts' in your post.

 

And, unsurprisingly, you missed the point altogether.  But I ain't a gonna try to explain it to you.

Thailand does not consist of only Bangkok and Pattaya. Go to Isaan. You will be hard pressed to find many car owners living in apartments. Same applies to Chiang Mai and many other parts of Thailand.

 

As for Singapore, I was a one time PR there and lived there for a few years. Every single one of my staff and their families lived in HDB’s.

 

Which ‘fact’ do you disagree with?

[KhunLA]

Old stats, but really can't image much has changed; 2013 study

@Lee65

[Issanman]

 

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, Lee65 said:

 

So governments are pushing and subsidizing EVs to a subset of the population for which the vehicles may conceivably make sense.

 

It's understandable why a large part of the population will be against EVs since they are paying but cannot benefit because "EVs make no sense without home charging".

More nonsense. The Thai government subsidises diesel which is only used by a subset of the population for which the vehicles make sense. Are petrol drivers up in arms? Are the EV drivers up in arms? No, they don't care. Are they put off buying diesel cars? No (well they are put off by them being extremely noisy, dirty and smelly but that's not the point I'm making, they are not put off by the subsidy on diesel).

The Thai government subsidises certain farming sectors which form only a subset of the population. Are non farmers up in arms? No. Are they "put off" by farmers? No.

The Thai government subsidises many industries by way of BOI tax incentives and these form a subset of all industries. Are non BOI companies up in arms? No. Do they turn against BOI companies? No.

I think you might get this point now.

Edited January 2 by josephbloggs

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, Issanman said:

 

13:40

Interesting carbon footprint even point

Car's produced in Norway the breakpoint is 13,000 KM

Cars produced in Poland and China the breakpoint is 126,000 KM

[Gweiloman]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Old stats, but really can't image much has changed; 2013 study

@Lee65

The problem with some posters is that they think they know Thailand after spending a month in Pattaya. You frequently go O&A. I’ve been to all 77 provinces, some of them many times and spent lots of time outside Bangkok. We have a god idea of how people live and the sort accommodation they live in. I stand by my statement that the majority of car owners in Thailand live in landed properties.

[Gweiloman]

31 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

13:40

Interesting carbon footprint even point

Car's produced in Norway the breakpoint is 13,000 KM

Cars produced in Poland and China the breakpoint is 126,000 KM

Break even point for cars in China will come down over time as there is a big push towards renewables, particularly solar and wind power. 
 

There’s lots of debate about how polluting it is to produce EVs. I don’t know one way or the other and honestly, I don’t really care. But it is undeniable that EVs are better for cities and urban areas compared to the toxic fumes belched out by diesel vehicles, especially in Thailand. And no one can honestly say they like the noise these vehicles make as they drive past your house or at a restaurant when you’re having dinner.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

The problem with some posters is that they think they know Thailand after spending a month in Pattaya. You frequently go O&A. I’ve been to all 77 provinces, some of them many times and spent lots of time outside Bangkok. We have a god idea of how people live and the sort accommodation they live in. I stand by my statement that the majority of car owners in Thailand live in landed properties.

Shy a few provinces (bottom 3), but been to most, and slept in the majority of them.   As the chart shows, most live detached homes or townhouses, even at the few large metro areas.

 

Udon Thani, 5th or 6th largest, depending what chart looking at, didn't have any condos complexes till Nov. 2014, and remember when they broke ground & opened.  You drive less than 1 kms off the ring rd at UT, and it turns into rural TH real fast.  

 

Mind boggling what people think they know.

 

 

Edited January 2 by KhunLA

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Break even point for cars in China will come down over time as there is a big push towards renewables, particularly solar and wind power. 
 

There’s lots of debate about how polluting it is to produce EVs. I don’t know one way or the other and honestly, I don’t really care. But it is undeniable that EVs are better for cities and urban areas compared to the toxic fumes belched out by diesel vehicles, especially in Thailand. And no one can honestly say they like the noise these vehicles make as they drive past your house or at a restaurant when you’re having dinner.

As the person in the video explains not all EV's manufactured have the same carbon breakpoint and in the same way not all diesel vehicles produce the same level of toxic fumes

Some manufacturers in Thailand already meet Euro 5 or 6 compliance for their engines

 

Prepare to receive! Euro 5 car standards come into force on 1 Jan. 2024 for small diesel cars - all types of trucks.

https://www.mreport.co.th/news/government-news/306-mandates-euro-5-emission-standards-for-vehicles-starting-2024

Euro 5 the standard for diesel fuel on January 1st 2024

https://www.nationthailand.com/thailand/general/40034126

[HighPriority]

Those pesky evangelical ev drivers are at it again !

Circumnavigating Australia in an ev towing a caravan !!

It'll never happen !

It’ll ruin your weekend… Excuse me whilst I wait for that noisy diesel electric train to pass… clears throat, We all know that electric cars can’t tow any sort of load…

 

Nek minit

 

https://thedriven.io/2024/01/06/ev-nomads-tesla-model-3-doing-lap-of-australia-towing-a-caravan/?fbclid=IwAR0vXGrj-9FhQA0pJbpZ0alD_iDtuv7Y0S0w8qkLM5ajn2CmrXLFYwbVzOM_aem_AYAyIQgw1AcrYoLB5Cak79YK-e_WKeTfK57nuEl8ReLIvZZEiRw4j3Y01iO2PMEO9F8

 

 

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

Those pesky evangelical ev drivers are at it again !

Circumnavigating Australia in an ev towing a caravan !!

It'll never happen !

It’ll ruin your weekend… Excuse me whilst I wait for that noisy diesel electric train to pass… clears throat, We all know that electric cars can’t tow any sort of load…

 

Nek minit

 

https://thedriven.io/2024/01/06/ev-nomads-tesla-model-3-doing-lap-of-australia-towing-a-caravan/?fbclid=IwAR0vXGrj-9FhQA0pJbpZ0alD_iDtuv7Y0S0w8qkLM5ajn2CmrXLFYwbVzOM_aem_AYAyIQgw1AcrYoLB5Cak79YK-e_WKeTfK57nuEl8ReLIvZZEiRw4j3Y01iO2PMEO9F8

 

 

Instead of a lot of complaining and I told you sos, all it takes is a bit of innovative thinking and the determination to make something workable. A new age of motoring is coming.

[HighPriority]

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Instead of a lot of complaining and I told you sos, all it takes is a bit of innovative thinking and the determination to make something workable. A new age of motoring is coming.

Yep, 60 yrs ago the same trip with an ice vehicle was outrageous too, now all you need to do is grab a toothbrush and start driving, one day ev will be the same.

Then of course we’ll have a new fuel source and some will be harking back to the golden age of evs and how nothing will ever manage to supersede them… 🤣

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Lee65]

Apologies in advance if this has already been covered:

 

Chinese BYD electric car explodes while charging outside shopping mall
ViralPress Sep 5, 2023 Updated Sep 5, 2023

 

A one-week-old Chinese BYD electric car exploded while it was charging outside a mall in Thailand. The grey BYD Atto 3 was found by firefighters with smoke gushing out from under its bonnet while parked in front of a shopping centre in Udon Thani province on September 3 afternoon. ...

 

This is a better report:

 

First BYD Atto 3 Catches Fire in Thailand: An Isolated Incident or a Wake-Up Call?glassman555 - September 3, 2023

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7 by Lee65

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

Apologies in advance if this has already been covered:

 

Chinese BYD electric car explodes while charging outside shopping mall
ViralPress Sep 5, 2023 Updated Sep 5, 2023

 

A one-week-old Chinese BYD electric car exploded while it was charging outside a mall in Thailand. The grey BYD Atto 3 was found by firefighters with smoke gushing out from under its bonnet while parked in front of a shopping centre in Udon Thani province on September 3 afternoon. ...

 

First BYD Atto 3 Catches Fire in Thailand: An Isolated Incident or a Wake-Up Call?glassman555 - September 3, 2023

 

 

 

 

it was faulty air conditioning IIRC, no fire just smoke, nothing to do with it being an EV

[HighPriority]

17 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

it was faulty air conditioning IIRC, no fire just smoke, nothing to do with it being an EV

OMG !

Now we’ve gotta be careful of the batteries AND the Aircon’s !!

😱😱

[Bandersnatch]

36 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

Apologies in advance if this has already been covered:

 

Chinese BYD electric car explodes while charging outside shopping mall
ViralPress Sep 5, 2023 Updated Sep 5, 2023

 

A one-week-old Chinese BYD electric car exploded while it was charging outside a mall in Thailand. The grey BYD Atto 3 was found by firefighters with smoke gushing out from under its bonnet while parked in front of a shopping centre in Udon Thani province on September 3 afternoon. ...

 

This is a better report:

 

First BYD Atto 3 Catches Fire in Thailand: An Isolated Incident or a Wake-Up Call?glassman555 - September 3, 2023

 

 

 

 

 

Funny that your first link no longer exists  - probably pulled due to fact-checking showing that it was inaccurate 

 

"BYD electric car explodes" You really think that this photo looks like the car exploded? This was not a traction battery fire but an electrical fault in the 12Volt system.  The traction battery is not located under the bonnet but under the floor of the car.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7 by Bandersnatch

[HighPriority]

An update on the recharging infrastructure for our yank friends

 

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2024-will-be-the-year-we-figure-out-ev-charging/

 

There’s also a couple of further articles at the bottom of the page, one listing USA available models with range and price details.

Quite interesting.

[Gweiloman]

18 hours ago, Lee65 said:

Apologies in advance if this has already been covered:

 

Chinese BYD electric car explodes while charging outside shopping mall
ViralPress Sep 5, 2023 Updated Sep 5, 2023

 

A one-week-old Chinese BYD electric car exploded while it was charging outside a mall in Thailand. The grey BYD Atto 3 was found by firefighters with smoke gushing out from under its bonnet while parked in front of a shopping centre in Udon Thani province on September 3 afternoon. ...

 

This is a better report:

 

First BYD Atto 3 Catches Fire in Thailand: An Isolated Incident or a Wake-Up Call?glassman555 - September 3, 2023

 

 

 

 

Nice try, Try harder next time.

 

You’re obviously ignorant about EV fires. If the traction battery does catch on fire (which can happen), then the Thai firefighters won’t be standing around so casually.

[josephbloggs]

REad this today from the AA. Interesting. They say next year they expect the same amount of callouts for dead EV batteries as for (idiots) who run out of fuel. Range anxiety becoming a thing of the past? 

Yes, this is the UK and nothing to do with Thailand, but many posters have used the UK's charging infrastructure to bash EVs generally. Seems it is less and less of an issue.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-12926897/EV-breakdowns-low-battery-drop-lowest-levels-record-AA-says.html

[Lee65]

Hertz to sell off fleet of 20,000 EVs, revert to gas-powered cars

 

"We took a bold move and are taking a strategic adjustment to our fleet to take 20,000 electric vehicles out of the fleet," Hertz CEO Stephen Scherr said in an interview with CNBC. "It's really to respond to the reality, which is we're trying to bring supply in line with demand and we're addressing a cost issue that happens to be related to the EVs in the context of damage and damage costs."