Israel losing global support over Gaza bombing, Biden says

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, pacovl46 said:

This is precisely the reason why Israel provokes them all the time, they know they’ll bite. So, if Hamas would dissolve and there would be no more terrorist attacks then they would do get the global support and then Israel would have to give in and settle for two states eventually! 

I don't know why you think that if Hamas didn't exist Israel would be nice to Palestinians. Hamas came to be BECAUSE of israeli oppression.

Had not Hamas existed a different organisation would have instead.

It's in human nature to resist oppression. If israel hadn't oppressed Palestinians and allowed a two state solution way back they might have peace now, but we'll never know now.

[spidermike007]

14 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Did I imply that?

No.

 

I also do not agree that it's either 'surgical strikes' or 'genocide'. War incorporates a whole range of military action in between.

Almost all of it not pretty.

 

Slaughtered? That's again, your loaded comment, not a fact.

Civilians are killed because war in dense urban arenas is like that.

 

Consider they were not being bombed on the morning of 7/10.

Consider Hamas went into this knowing there will be a strong reaction.

Consider Hamas does nothing to protect his own civilians.

Consider Hamas leadership opined their death to be a 'necessary sacrifice'.

No question Hamas is nasty and needs to be eliminated. I am simply talking about a reasonable and proportional response, sparing as many civilians as possible. 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I've read many posts divorced from reality on this forum, but that one takes top place prize, IMO.

 

plus they must agree to face the UN criminal court for the atrocities they committed in Israel, and for the war crimes they have been commiting since then by holding hostages, and for hiding themselves and their terrorist military equipment behind civilians in a war zone. 

 

UN criminal court? I know about the ICC but that isn't part of the UN.

 

Even if such an entity exists, to expect Hamas to face criminal charges without the israeli leadership also facing court charges on crimes against humanity and war crimes, is a nonsense.

 

 

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Well, I'm assuming you read you own posts, so that would surely increase the number of 'divorced from reality' ones.

 

You seem to believe that there is some sort of 'same same' requirement, some legal equivalency.

There is no sound reasoning to it - it's merely a reflection of your biased opinion.

 

Your grasp of the 'war crimes' issue and legalities involved is rather shaky. Maybe too many hours watching AJ.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

No question Hamas is nasty and needs to be eliminated. I am simply talking about a reasonable and proportional response, sparing as many civilians as possible. 

 

That's a generic comment often made on these topics, and by politicians as well.

 

What's missing from these statements is a clearer, realistic explanation of what this actually implies and how it could be realistically achieved.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

when the civilians allowed Hamas to build tunnels under their homes, hospitals, schools and mosques....

 

Are you <deleted> serious? Do you think they had a say in it? Do you actually know anything about the reality in Gaza? Who has the guns in Gaza?

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

 

Palestinians have no issue rising up against the much-stronger-than-Hamas Israeli army. So it's not so much a matter of 'cannot' but rather of 'won't'.

 

On many of your posts you go on and on about how Palestinians are ready to fight forever, sacrifice their lives, endure whatever - if you believe your own rhetoric, then what you posted above is at odds with this sentiment.

 

Further, you also refer to Hamas as a resistance movement and as representing the Palestinians (at least on posts where it suits your 'point'). The above description makes them sound like some tyrannical, dictatorial rulers. Again, at odds with views aired earlier.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

From 1946 until 2022 the US gave Israel a total of almost 318 billion dollars. Which is almost 318 billion too much, if you ask me, considering how they behave! 

 

There was actually a USA arms embargo on Israel in the country's early years. USA Aid to Israel became a thing in the Mid-60's or so. Regardless, most of the funds allocated are designated to purchasing stuff from American firms. 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

Further, you also refer to Hamas as a resistance movement and as representing the Palestinians (at least on posts where it suits your 'point').

Rather like you posts hundreds of post on these topics but conveniently don't see the ones about killing civilians with  a white flag, or other attrocities done by Israel.

.

You can find it here. I await your response.

 

[ozimoron]

19 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   So you think that Israel should have enforced the blockade of Gaza more stringently and not allowed money into Gaza ?

   Would you like the blockade to be  lifted and also  simultaneously have the blockade more harshly enforced ?

 

I think that Netanyahu should not have aided and abetted Hamas in an attempt to stave off the PA from becoming the legitimate power in Palestinian territories. Netanyahu aided and abetted their terrorist acts.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The world ignored Gaza before and turned a blind eye to israel's oppression, but nobody's ignoring it anymore. The israeli crimes are being exposed and much of the world is already opposed to israel now. By the time this is over most of the world will be opposed to israel, IMO.

Whatever happens from now on, no one can say they don't know that israel commits crimes against humanity.

 

The world did no such thing, other than in your imagination. There's a whole UN agency dedicated for Palestinian 'refugees'. Israel's transgressions are regular discussion material in the UN, and as far as I recall, the only issue which is a permanent item on the human rights elements of the UN. 

 

The world is not 'opposed' to Israel in the way that you hope for. There is no breaking of ties, commerce, boycotts, embargoes, sanctions or anything. There is no international unconditional embrace of the Palestinian cause, Hamas or anything else related to this.

 

Crimes against humanity, no less. Well, well....if you say so, it must be true.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No serious person that knows about the reality in the West Bank considers the 2 state solution as viable. To make it happen israel has to vacate the West Bank settlements. Do you think that will ever happen?

 

I don't know what Hamas wants overall, as rhetoric is not usually reality, but I do know that they want revenge on israel for israeli crimes against Palestinians over many decades of oppression. How could they not?

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

That would be you either watching too much AJ, or just spewing one of your 'opinions'. So yes, the conditions for a two-state solution are bad, but to say it's impossible? That's a choice. Considering the many fantastic things you believe, shouldn't be a problem to accommodate this one as well.

 

A two-state solution will also require the Palestinians to drop the claim embodied by the 'river-to-the-sea' chants. Do you see that happening? Or, do you see Hamas laying down it's weapons, recognizing Israel and it's right to exist, while embracing a peaceful path? You ignore what's uncomfortable.

 

You don't know what Hamas wants? How come? Hamas leadership is often on AJ, and if that's not enough, it's been discussed on here numerous times.

Nice that you justify them, again - guess you'll deny doing so in a future post.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The world did no such thing, other than in your imagination. There's a whole UN agency dedicated for Palestinian 'refugees'. Israel's transgressions are regular discussion material in the UN, and as far as I recall, the only issue which is a permanent item on the human rights elements of the UN. 

 

The world is not 'opposed' to Israel in the way that you hope for. There is no breaking of ties, commerce, boycotts, embargoes, sanctions or anything. There is no international unconditional embrace of the Palestinian cause, Hamas or anything else related to this.

 

Crimes against humanity, no less. Well, well....if you say so, it must be true.

 

Israel, like any other colonial state, has a “terminal shelf life” and with its genocidal campaign in Gaza, it has “signed its death sentence”, American journalist and Pulitzer Prize Winner Chris Hedges wrote on Sunday.

 

Under the title, “The Death of Israel”, Hedges argued that, although Israel may appear triumphant after achieving the goal of the decimation of Gaza, by that time, “it will have signed its own death sentence.”

 

“Its facade of civility, its supposed vaunted respect for the rule of law and democracy, its mythical story of the courageous Israeli military and miraculous birth of the Jewish nation, will lie in ash heaps,” Heges said.

 

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/israel-has-signed-its-death-sentence-pulitzer-prize-winner/

[Morch]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't know why you think that if Hamas didn't exist Israel would be nice to Palestinians. Hamas came to be BECAUSE of israeli oppression.

Had not Hamas existed a different organisation would have instead.

It's in human nature to resist oppression. If israel hadn't oppressed Palestinians and allowed a two state solution way back they might have peace now, but we'll never know now.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

The Palestinians rejected the two-state solution for decades. They did not seriously push for a Palestinian state before the West Bank and the Gaza were taken by Israel (as in, before the Israeli 'oppression'). You're making up history now as well?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

The Palestinians rejected the two-state solution for decades. They did not seriously push for a Palestinian state before the West Bank and the Gaza were taken by Israel (as in, before the Israeli 'oppression'). You're making up history now as well?

 

No 2 state solution was ever on the table which included Israel relinquishing the illegal settlements or the right to return of refugees.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I think that Netanyahu should not have aided and abetted Hamas in an attempt to stave off the PA from becoming the legitimate power in Palestinian territories. Netanyahu aided and abetted their terrorist acts.

 

I think that you are desperate to shift all responsibility from the Hamas.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

I think that you are desperate to shift all responsibility from the Hamas.

 

I think you are desperate to project any BS you can onto anyone who disagrees with you.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Israel, like any other colonial state, has a “terminal shelf life” and with its genocidal campaign in Gaza, it has “signed its death sentence”, American journalist and Pulitzer Prize Winner Chris Hedges wrote on Sunday.

 

Under the title, “The Death of Israel”, Hedges argued that, although Israel may appear triumphant after achieving the goal of the decimation of Gaza, by that time, “it will have signed its own death sentence.”

 

“Its facade of civility, its supposed vaunted respect for the rule of law and democracy, its mythical story of the courageous Israeli military and miraculous birth of the Jewish nation, will lie in ash heaps,” Heges said.

 

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/israel-has-signed-its-death-sentence-pulitzer-prize-winner/

 

Using such terms as 'colonial, 'genocide' and all the rest of the usual jargon doesn't actually mean a whole lot. It's just hot air.

Chris Hedges biased views on Israel are nothing new.

 

[SunsetT]

20 hours ago, Morch said:

 

What 'genocide'? The one you're hyping? People tend to toss big words, more interested in their shock effect on posts than their actual accuracy, relevance or truth. Spin this any which way you want, but it's not 'genocide' in the sense that the existence of the Palestinian people is on the line, or anything remotely close to it. Could you cite anything credible supporting your 'appears like' bit? And no, I don't mean extremists saying this or that, a daft memo, or your imagination. Something concrete, please. While at it, consider that there are still Palestinians in Norther Gaza, and a whole chunk of Central Gaza Strip which the IDF simply ignored. Not exactly text book land grab tactics, but guess you know better....?

19000 dead and still rising = Genocide. 500000 driven out in the 1947 war but never allowed to return. Slow land grab and killing ever since, and hoping to similarly drive out the remaining population with this war.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Using such terms as 'colonial, 'genocide' and all the rest of the usual jargon doesn't actually mean a whole lot. It's just hot air.

Chris Hedges biased views on Israel are nothing new.

 

 

Nothing new.

 

translation: consistent

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

No 2 state solution was ever on the table which included Israel relinquishing the illegal settlements or the right to return of refugees.

 

All two-state solutions that were negotiated involved at least some measure of Israel illegal settlements being evacuated.

A general 'right of return' to Israel's territory was never in the cards and is not a realistic demand. This was acknowledged even by Abbas.

There was talk about a very limited return of either elderly persons or to specific places where it could be applied.

 

Again, you make them statements like you know what you're talking about, or like they are facts.

 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I think you are desperate to project any BS you can onto anyone who disagrees with you.

 

I think you have nothing.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, SunsetT said:

19000 dead and still rising = Genocide. 500000 driven out in the 1947 war but never allowed to return. Slow land grab and killing ever since, and hoping to similarly drive out the remaining population with this war.

 

the 19,000 dead figure includes Hamas men, Gazans killed by misfired Palestinian rockets, and naturally occurring deaths (as when there's no war on). Lumping them all together and packaging it the way you do is basically repeating Hamas propaganda. Civilians get killed in wars all the time - that does not necessarily imply a 'war crime'.

 

Your claim that the hope is that this war will drive the rest of the population out - that's something you claim, not a fact, nor a policy that I'm aware of.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Nothing new.

 

translation: consistent

 

Being consistent doesn't make views correct, factual or right.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

All two-state solutions that were negotiated involved at least some measure of Israel illegal settlements being evacuated.

A general 'right of return' to Israel's territory was never in the cards and is not a realistic demand. This was acknowledged even by Abbas.

There was talk about a very limited return of either elderly persons or to specific places where it could be applied.

 

Again, you make them statements like you know what you're talking about, or like they are facts.

 

 

"some measure" is intentionally vague on your part. I stand by my statement. You have not contradicted it.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Being consistent doesn't make views correct, factual or right.

 

Many people think he's correct. Not just antisemites.

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I think you have nothing.

The only defense he has is to troll

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Many people think he's correct. Not just antisemites.

 

I haven't said anything about antisemites, in this regard. That's something you injected to the exchange.

 

And 'many people' is a nothing comment.

 

[ozimoron]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The only defense he has is to troll

 

You continue to flame.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You continue to flame.

 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

Show me where I flamed you or anybody else.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Show me where I flamed you or anybody else.