Russia unleashes what may be one of the biggest aerial barrages against Ukraine, Zelenskyy says

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, rabas said:

But knowing a bit about Russia makes your call for genocidal destruction of Ukraine all the worse. You kind of sound like RT.

Hmmmmm. On seeing that I reviewed some of his posts and I find no mention of a "genocidal destruction of Ukraine". Perhaps you can inform me of which words he used to want that?

 

On the contrary, he seems aligned to my view that the entire catastrophe might have been avoided had Ukraine accepted reality and given some land and Crimea to Russia, along with a cast iron guarantee of not joining NATO. If that's not so, my apologies to him.

Whatever the Putin haters opinion of him may be, he's no fool, and only a fool wants to have a war if they can win without it.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, retarius said:

Russia has not caused any mass civilian casualties. He has been exceptionally careful to destroy only military architecture in the vast majority of cases. Look up the numbers of civilians killed, it is the least of any modern war and probably a factor of 50 lower than the Israeli murders which imho are totally intentional and therefore genocidal. Dropping a 2000lb US bomb in the middle of a densely packed refugee camp, that's mass killing or a campaign to bomb all hospitals, a war crime. Bombing a Christmas Market in Belgorod, that's mass indiscriminate killing, Ukraine style. 

Putin stands about as much chance of being defenestrated as you do of growing an open mind. You cannot defenestrate a nuclear power. The war will end only when Ukraine is destroyed or it surrenders, this are the only options open to it now not has turned down peace. 

Did you have to look up your big word? Sorry I studied Latin and Greek at school and am pretty good at Latin (our Greek) derived words. 

 

When the defenders of Zelensky's choice to choose destruction over negotiation are wont to use such words as "orcs" to describe Russians, I fear that your words are falling on barren ground.

I suspect they will be choosing war till the negotiations are a reality ( I hope it's negotiations before the last Ukrainian male gets sent to the front line ).

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

We won't know for certain what could have happened at that juncture and the other link said that UK/USA demands were the fall of the Putin regime. We were fed a lot of disinfo at the start of the war, Putin has only months to live, has cancer, will be removed in a coup , sanctions will collapse the economy- none of which have transpired. Indeed he looks stronger than ever which is what this missile strike was intended to brutally project. Since the collective West is unwilling or unable to further this senseless bloody war it's time to explore avenues for a dirty peace.

It's good to read some sensible posts on here for a change. I look forward to more such.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

This is not a rerun of WW2 or we would be all in and what it has exposed is Russia's vulnerability they would never and could never take on a NATO adversary and they are not foolish enough to do so.

IMO it's a rerun of Vietnam which was the proxy war of my generation.

 

One might be excused for wondering if it's more about making money for the weapons manufacturers than saving the western world from Russian annihilation ( I have become somewhat more cynical since being fooled by the message during Vietnam ). IMO the western world is in no danger from Russia while MAD exists.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, rabas said:

 

Russia intended maximum civilian damage for Putin's propaganda, civilian damage makes news. They had to save up missiles for weeks and blew $1.2 billion on 158 missiles and drones . Russia's total military budget is just $77 billion, which includes nuclear forces, navy, subs, and dooms day weapons development, etc.

 

So Russia did kill several civilians.

 

Days before the Ukrainian air force used one storm shadow missile to obliterate a Russian ship that costs $300 million to replace (and 10 years) along with 1000s of paid for drones and missiles being shipped from Iran, and the lives of almost 100 Russian military personnel. 

 

So after Russia spent $1.2B and lost far more,  Ukraine won the week.

 

Which team would you root for?

 

Full story here:  https://twitter.com/i/status/1741250201200029789

https://twitter.com/RealJakeBroe/status/1741240488236327215

 

Looks like they saved up a few more missiles then, given the more recent air assault.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/2/russia-unleashes-barrage-of-missiles-on-ukraine

2 Jan 2024

Russia has maintained its recent intensification of air attacks on Ukraine as it unleashed a huge overnight assault.

Hundreds of Russian missiles and drones struck the capital, Kyiv, and Kharkiv on Tuesday. The intensified attack on the country’s two largest cities came just a day after Russian President Vladimir Putin pledged to exact “revenge” for a deadly assault on the Russian city of Belgorod.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Looks like they saved up a few more missiles then, given the more recent air assault.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/2/russia-unleashes-barrage-of-missiles-on-ukraine

2 Jan 2024

Russia has maintained its recent intensification of air attacks on Ukraine as it unleashed a huge overnight assault.

Hundreds of Russian missiles and drones struck the capital, Kyiv, and Kharkiv on Tuesday. The intensified attack on the country’s two largest cities came just a day after Russian President Vladimir Putin pledged to exact “revenge” for a deadly assault on the Russian city of Belgorod.

 

Sounds like that makes you very happy. 

 

Apparently Putin is furious at the strike by Ukraine in Belgorod. Oh the irony. Ukraine attacking Russia. That was not part of Putin, the war criminals illegal invasion plan. Lol

[beautifulthailand99]

 

19 hours ago, rabas said:

 

I know the content in your links though Western experts don't have a good record deciphering the complexities of Russian propaganda, disinformation, and lies. If you understand something about Russian culture, as it seems you do, you may know Russians have the same trouble. 

 

But knowing a bit about Russia makes your call for genocidal destruction of Ukraine all the worse. You kind of sound like RT.

 

This is probably one of the best takes I've read on the social media war. Mainstream media with carefully curated narratives have led to this disconnect between expectation/hope and reality. As well as reading a wide range of serious publications I also took time to study Twitter and Redditt groups and detailed analysis by YouTube pundits ( something which is banned here) which allowed the viewing of real-time battle footage and pretty early on it was easy to see that the tired old tropes of shovels/washing machines and a Russian army in complete meltdown were largely propaganda and dangerous takes in understanding the nature of the beast.

 

In any case, a dirty peace where Ukraine gets to re-group, re-arm and see which way the future holds in terms of international support which is vital to victory if that is any longer achievable will prevent any further terrible suffering on both sides. Zelesniy has always hoped for unconditional support/NATO boots on the ground but is starkly apparent to even the most unseasoned observer that this is simply never going to happen.

 

The promised war-winning Western increase in munitions production simply has not materialised and  Russia has transitioned to a war economy, and its seizing of Western companies in response to a sanctions regime whose effects have proved the opposite to those intended, has granted Russia both renewed offensive potential and an economic boom to pay for it.

 

"Russia is never as strong as she looks; Russia is never as weak as she looks." (Attributed to multiple individuals, including Winston Churchill.)

https://unherd.com/thepost/did-social-media-activism-hurt-the-ukrainian-cause/

As a result of the internet attention economy, much of the discourse around the Ukraine war turned into reckless boosterism. Voices urging Ukrainian caution as the Kyiv government’s war aims escalated were shouted down as defeatists or pro-Russian propagandists. An unhealthy dynamic was created, where the most accurate analysis either retreated into closed discussion spaces or was carefully hedged into vapidity to avoid trolling by Ukraine’s online army of foreign cheerleaders. Most dangerously, to even broach the idea that Russia retained vast and underused military potential would bring accusations of closet Putinism.

 

As only the most optimistic Kyiv claims were shared, it created, according to the former Ukrainian defence minister Oleksiy Reznikov’s head of communications Iryna Zolotar, “a confusing narrative where ‘expectations are overstated and do not correspond to the real state of affairs.’” And as Zolotar remarks, “the current strategy had left audiences in the West asking why they should contribute their taxpayers’ money if Ukraine was always ‘about to win.’”

Edited January 3 by beautifulthailand99

[retarius]

19 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

You may want to look at the Russian word 'vranyo' it means and I'm sure you know what it means judging by your wording of your maligned post, it means.....you know your lying and everybody else knows your lying, but the Russians go ahead and lie anyway, it's part of their culture!

I have no doubt the Russia lie and resort to propaganda. Perhaps it is exceeded only by western propaganda justifying wars of choice and minimising the brutality and death toll sin the wars. The Guardian reported this morning that the 'barrage' on Kharkiv killed 5 people overnight. Compare this the the death toll in Gaza.

[Bkk Brian]

16 minutes ago, retarius said:

I have no doubt the Russia lie and resort to propaganda. Perhaps it is exceeded only by western propaganda justifying wars of choice and minimising the brutality and death toll sin the wars. The Guardian reported this morning that the 'barrage' on Kharkiv killed 5 people overnight. Compare this the the death toll in Gaza.

Attempting to compare an illegal invasion into Ukraine where there are no human shields and Gaza where Hamas uses the whole population as its sacrificial lambs shows your ignorance.

Edited January 3 by Bkk Brian

[Wobblybob]

Just now, retarius said:

I have no doubt the Russia lie and resort to propaganda. Perhaps it is exceeded only by western propaganda justifying wars of choice and minimising the brutality and death toll sin the wars. The Guardian reported this morning that the 'barrage' on Kharkiv killed 5 people overnight. Compare this the the death toll in Gaza.

A nice slice of whataboutery to start the day! Which ever way you care to look at it is, Russia's media is total ruled by the Kremlin propaganda machine and will tell the populace what it wants them to believe, Western media are truly independent and can print or say whatever they chose to report without interference from our governments etc, Western media is not always perfect and sometimes get it wrong, but they are still a million miles from the lying Russian bile that continuously is pumped out by Putin and his crones.

You have not made a point by citing the Guardian, only left wing loons subscribe to this garbage!

[Rimmer]

An off topic unattributed / troll post and reply has been removed

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/3/2024 at 5:41 PM, beautifulthailand99 said:

As a result of the internet attention economy, much of the discourse around the Ukraine war turned into reckless boosterism. Voices urging Ukrainian caution as the Kyiv government’s war aims escalated were shouted down as defeatists or pro-Russian propagandists. An unhealthy dynamic was created, where the most accurate analysis either retreated into closed discussion spaces or was carefully hedged into vapidity to avoid trolling by Ukraine’s online army of foreign cheerleaders. Most dangerously, to even broach the idea that Russia retained vast and underused military potential would bring accusations of closet Putinism.

Ain't that the truth! As one that from the start advocated trading land for peace in negotiations I got the "Putin supporter" attacks in spades. I got tired of reporting them in the end and just put them on ignore. Made for a more attack devoid posting experience, but I also missed out on seeing what they were saying. Never mind- it does seem to be edging towards the "negotiating table", especially with the Gaza thing, as that stole the limelight and American attention/ munitions etc. I wonder had Gaza not happened how the situation would be in Ukraine now.

[impulse]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:38 PM, Wobblybob said:

Western media are truly independent and can print or say whatever they chose to report without interference from our governments etc, Western media is not always perfect and sometimes get it wrong, but they are still a million miles from the lying Russian bile that continuously is pumped out by Putin and his crones.

 

Western MSM has become a mouthpiece and cheerleader for the left.  More specifically, for the Democratic party.  With 10x as many US journalists identifying as Dems as Repubs.  A far cry from "truly independent", and getting worse every year.  Unless you're willing to scrounge through the right wing counterbalance, then do some rather time consuming digging through the links and original source material.  Sadly, most Americans would prefer 10 second sound bites, and be hypnotized by the echo.

 

Edit:  I say scrounge because the right wing stuff is usually less well funded and not nearly as slick and entertaining, with a few exceptions. 

 

 

https://www.theamericanjournalist.org/_files/ugd/46a507_4fe1c4d6ec6d4c229895282965258a7a.pdf

 

The linked PDF has a lot of good info, in addition to the posted graph.  But I'd bet 90% of the members here won't even bother.

 

 

Edited January 4 by impulse

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Western MSM has become a mouthpiece and cheerleader for the left.  More specifically, for the Democratic party.  With 10x as many US journalists identifying as Dems as Repubs.  A far cry from "truly independent", and getting worse every year.  Unless you're willing to scrounge through the right wing counterbalance, then do some rather time consuming digging through the links and original source material.  Sadly, most Americans would prefer 10 second sound bites, and be hypnotized by the echo.

 

Edit:  I say scrounge because the right wing stuff is usually less well funded and not nearly as slick and entertaining, with a few exceptions. 

 

 

https://www.theamericanjournalist.org/_files/ugd/46a507_4fe1c4d6ec6d4c229895282965258a7a.pdf

 

The linked PDF has a lot of good info, in addition to the posted graph.  But I'd bet 90% of the members here won't even bother.

 

 

 

A whole lot of 'independents', it seems.

[impulse]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

A whole lot of 'independents', it seems.

 

Claiming to be unbiased and truly being unbiased are two very different things.

 

[Wobblybob]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Claiming to be unbiased and truly being unbiased are two very different things.

 

Who claimed they were unbiased, not me, I correctly stated that compared to their Russian counterparts they are like a breath of fresh air and they are free to print what they like. I wouldn't pay the BBC in 3/8" flat washers.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Claiming to be unbiased and truly being unbiased are two very different things.

 

 

Claiming bias and sources being biased are two very different things.