Help New refrig ground wire

[charleskerins]

29 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Never believe that 110+ volts can’t kill you.

 

That is incorrect, possible but wrong.  The vast majority of times you will receive an electric shock that falls far short of electrocution. The chance of electrocution is vastly reduced if you, like any competent electriction and keep one hand in your pocket. 
The reason is that the majority of accidental electrocutions require a path through the heart, so from hand to hand. Of course a shock that doesn’t travel hand to hand can electrocute but the risk is vastly lower.

This has taken a shocking turn.

[charleskerins]

13 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

They are both feasible. That you don’t want to actually do them is a rather different point.

There is no requirement that the earth neutral and line conductors are together. It is convenient and is the way that the vast majority of appliances are connected. The important point is that the potentially live metal case is earthed, how you achieve that is rather less important.

 

A surge protector has nothing to do with safe earthing.

 

Your appliances that require an earth will virtually always run fine without the earth connection.
They will be perfectly safe to use, until they are not.

They will not kill you, until they do

How long until they decide to kill you? How long before they are not safe?

if you can answer those questions please tell me the next winning lottery ticket number.

 

Recently in our village someone who had been using an appliance perfectly safely for years became the featured guest at the local celebration that is usually reserved for those with terminal cases of old age, disease, Drug addiction etc, she hadn’t been due to be the star for 20 or 30 years.

 

The problem is that it is a low risk case but has the chance of a really really bad outcome, I personally want to delay my introduction to the quite high temperature temple ceremony for as many years as possible.

 

Don't wish to argue because i believe you are trying to help me  ,but feasible means easy/convenient .  I am not prepared  willing , permitted  to excavate a trench in a rented building through concrete  to bury a ground wire . The ground wire outside would also require  excavation through someone else's concrete. I was looking for a safe and convenient method .Thank You for trying to help.

 

17 hours ago, sandyf said:

Obviously it is your choice if you want to use the appliance without grounding the metal casing.

You are incorrect to say it is not feasible. I have seen many Thai houses where an earth cable has been added alongside the surface wiring, just needs a competant electrician.

If it is a matter of cost or landlord permission, that has nothing to do with feasability.

It appears the definition of feasibility has been put on the shelf.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, charleskerins said:

Don't wish to argue because i believe you are trying to help me  ,but feasible means easy/convenient .  I am not prepared  willing , permitted  to excavate a trench in a rented building through concrete  to bury a ground wire . The ground wire outside would also require  excavation through someone else's concrete. I was looking for a safe and convenient method .Thank You for trying to help.

 

It appears the definition of feasibility has been put on the shelf.

You have chose the part of the definition that suits your point of view.

It would appear that you are also confirming what I suggested may be the case in another reply, that there is no earth in the consumer unit. That being the case I would suggest you look for somewhere else, It is my understanding that landlords have a responsibility to ensure the wiring is safe.

You can be a long time pushing up daisies.

 

[charleskerins]

Additional photos         

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, charleskerins said:

but feasible means easy/convenient .

Well having taught English professionally, I can say with a reasonable degree of authority, that your definition is wrong. The definition of feasible = is possible and practical, easy and convenient are not part of the definition.

 

However you have just introduced a point that though totally obvious to you, is vital to anyone trying to assist and can’t be deduced from your questions
 

10 hours ago, charleskerins said:

I am not prepared  willing , permitted  to excavate a trench in a rented building through concrete  to bury a ground wire . The ground wire outside would also require  excavation through someone else's concrete.

An eminently, sensible point of view, neither of these are required.

 

10 hours ago, charleskerins said:

I was looking for a safe and convenient method .

This is where you should actually give full information, with complete information the suggestions under would have been given sooner.

during the Second World War, it was discovered that reinforced concrete is actually an excellent grounding point, what you need to do is find an exposed piece of metal connected to the building steel, this is usually Rebar, but Rebar is not required, at that point you need to make sure that there is a good connection to ground from the piece of metal, for this you really need somebody who actually knows how to check. It seems that you don’t have the ability to do that kind of checking. 

 

The kind of places which will have a good connection through the building to the steel to the concrete and into ground are things like railings, possibly window frames, but window frames are less slightly to have a good connection. Likely you have a suspended ceiling and investigating above the suspended ceiling will provide points where an earth can be attached. 

FWIW one reason why you can be electrocuted in a concrete building is because the building itself is an excellent ground.

Edited January 14 by sometimewoodworker

[charleskerins]

23 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Well having taught English professionally, I can say with a reasonable degree of authority, that your definition is wrong. The definition of feasible = is possible and practical, easy and convenient are not part of the definition.

 

However you have just introduced a point that though totally obvious to you, is vital to anyone trying to assist and can’t be deduced from your questions
 

An eminently, sensible point of view, neither of these are required.

 

This is where you should actually give full information, with complete information the suggestions under would have been given sooner.

during the Second World War, it was discovered that reinforced concrete is actually an excellent grounding point, what you need to do is find an exposed piece of metal connected to the building steel, this is usually Rebar, but Rebar is not required, at that point you need to make sure that there is a good connection to ground from the piece of metal, for this you really need somebody who actually knows how to check. It seems that you don’t have the ability to do that kind of checking. 

 

The kind of places which will have a good connection through the building to the steel to the concrete and into ground are things like railings, possibly window frames, but window frames are less slightly to have a good connection. Likely you have a suspended ceiling and investigating above the suspended ceiling will provide points where an earth can be attached. 

FWIW one reason why you can be electrocuted in a concrete building is because the building itself is an excellent ground.

Interesting     when you google  (feasibility definition ) the first thing that comes up is    "possible to do easily and conveniently"  -Oxford languages    but it's "wrong".  How about intractable ,inflexible , dogmatic   did you ever run across those terms teaching professionally?     thanks for the lesson

[sometimewoodworker]

@charleskerins you seem to be more concerned with trying to prove that feasible = easy than actually looking at the very real alternative options that don’t involve getting a cable down to the ground. 

The options given do actually meet you definition of a feasible, if you have the ability to check the building steel, way to add some larger degree of safety to your fridge. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

 

[charleskerins]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

@charleskerins you seem to be more concerned with trying to prove that feasible = easy than actually looking at the very real alternative options that don’t involve getting a cable down to the ground. 

The options given do actually meet you definition of a feasible, if you have the ability to check the building steel, way to add some larger degree of safety to your fridge. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

 

No im more concerned with the safety of the wiring on here  .I just spent some time on a US website   1/2 the people say the grounding rod outside violates US code and the other half say how to do it.  i have seen them on older houses in the US. Then i watched a This old house episode where he he changed  the outlets  to 3 prong with GFI. His explanation was that the breakers would trip if there was a fault.  I supplied a couple of other photos  it looks like I have a 90 amp service with just 2 breakers???.In the US the frig would come with 3 prongs and you would plug it into a 3 prong.  Here it came with 2 prongs and the grounding wire 

[charleskerins]

48 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

@charleskerins you seem to be more concerned with trying to prove that feasible = easy than actually looking at the very real alternative options that don’t involve getting a cable down to the ground. 

The options given do actually meet you definition of a feasible, if you have the ability to check the building steel, way to add some larger degree of safety to your fridge. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

 

I read the article very interesting - so i'm  curious  - drive a piece of rebar through the concrete  and then run ground wire out to it?  Would I need to patch and enclose it with new concrete patch?  thanks        Is this method still employed today  -the rebar up from the slab to connect ground?

Edited January 14 by charleskerins
nm

[xtrnuno41]

11 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Never believe that 110+ volts can’t kill you.

 

That is incorrect, possible but wrong.  The vast majority of times you will receive an electric shock that falls far short of electrocution. The chance of electrocution is vastly reduced if you, like any competent electriction and keep one hand in your pocket. 
The reason is that the majority of accidental electrocutions require a path through the heart, so from hand to hand. Of course a shock that doesn’t travel hand to hand can electrocute but the risk is vastly lower.

Would you touch the refrigerator with a phase error to  chassis, no (bad) ground,  no RCBO, with one hand in your pocket?

You can choose right or left hand.

A good electrician goes by the saying "look before you leap".

 

@Danderman123  In my country they say less then 166 ohm and the higher it gets the less thrust worthy, as max 1667 ohms.

However then NEC says 25 ohm but then again: 

There is no standard threshold for ground resistance, which is recognized by all standard institutes.
However, the NFPA and the IEEE recommend a ground resistance value of 5.0 ohms or less.

 

SO after more then an age of electricity, no one agrees on a global setting.

You can see on you tube several about grounding, note they say the lower you get, the better the protection.

On which I can agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2OtgeDkTLs

 

This video shows as well, but also they show you three ways on how it is measured.

For the 3 point measuring, I think they shouldnt have used such an old device. But ok.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg6G5VUSsWA

 

Also by using more rods, placed on specific spots and putting them parallel, you can reduce resistance.

Also what happens in which soils you use the rods. 

Also in which time would be important. For instance Thailand, you make it in rainy season, you measure and it is fine with the wet soil due to rain. You put it only1 foot deep. Then you get summer and all dries up, changing the resistance and it is worthless.

You can see in second movie, they made rod 20 feet and resistance almost didnt change. Soil and conditions are important factors.

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Would you touch the refrigerator with a phase error to  chassis, no (bad) ground,  no RCBO, with one hand in your pocket?

You can choose right or left hand.

A good electrician goes by the saying "look before you leap".

 

@Danderman123  In my country they say less then 166 ohm and the higher it gets the less thrust worthy, as max 1667 ohms.

However then NEC says 25 ohm but then again: 

There is no standard threshold for ground resistance, which is recognized by all standard institutes.
However, the NFPA and the IEEE recommend a ground resistance value of 5.0 ohms or less.

 

SO after more then an age of electricity, no one agrees on a global setting.

You can see on you tube several about grounding, note they say the lower you get, the better the protection.

On which I can agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2OtgeDkTLs

 

This video shows as well, but also they show you three ways on how it is measured.

For the 3 point measuring, I think they shouldnt have used such an old device. But ok.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg6G5VUSsWA

 

Also by using more rods, placed on specific spots and putting them parallel, you can reduce resistance.

Also what happens in which soils you use the rods. 

Also in which time would be important. For instance Thailand, you make it in rainy season, you measure and it is fine with the wet soil due to rain. You put it only1 foot deep. Then you get summer and all dries up, changing the resistance and it is worthless.

You can see in second movie, they made rod 20 feet and resistance almost didnt change. Soil and conditions are important factors.

I normally use AWG 8 ground wire, with a 2 meter ground rod.

[sometimewoodworker]

29 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Would you touch the refrigerator with a phase error to  chassis, no (bad) ground,  no RCBO, with one hand in your pocket?

You can choose right or left hand.

Were I to do anything to a refrigerator, or other appliances, that are single insulated and ungrounded, I would first check with my test equipment. However they are not an absolute guarantee so I would use one hand to work on them if they have to be connected during the work but for preference I would disconnect the item to work on it.

 

Bur to answer the question of, if shocked and you can choose one hand which hand to choose? My answer to that it makes no difference. This is due point that a hand to hand shock is very much more likely to cause problems than from one hand to another body part.

 

Of course not getting shocked is the best option.

35 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

A good electrician goes by the saying "look before you leap".

A better one goes by the saying "test before you touch” ;)

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, charleskerins said:

I read the article very interesting - so i'm  curious  - drive a piece of rebar through the concrete  and then run ground wire out to it?  Would I need to patch and enclose it with new concrete patch?  thanks        Is this method still employed today  -the rebar up from the slab to connect ground?

The article is very dated and doesn’t cover current practices in some countries. One of these practices is that in some places you are required to bond your building earth to your building rebar, so yes it is still in current use.

 

Your suggested method is very unlikely to work. In general there maybe points where the foundation rebar (that likely is connected to all the other reinforcement steel) surfaces, most likely in the roof, but possibly in other places like balcony rails. For this you need to do an electrical test.

 

4 hours ago, charleskerins said:

I just spent some time on a US website   1/2 the people say the grounding rod outside violates US code and the other half say how to do it.

Just because one country code doesn’t permit it doesn’t mean that it is wrong or dangerous.

 

4 hours ago, charleskerins said:

Then i watched a This old house episode where he he changed  the outlets  to 3 prong with GFI. His explanation was that the breakers would trip if there was a fault.

While TOH is an excellent show, it is exactly that, a show! And it glosses over and generalises. 

Is a supply protected by a RCCB (USA GFI) safer than one without? Absolutely yes.

Can a supply protected by a RCCB still kill somebody? Absolutely yes, but the chance of it doing that is orders of magnitude smaller and an unprotected one.

Will an RCCB always trip if there is a fault? Absolutely no, usually they trip but there are faults that will not trip an RCCB 

[bluejets]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:59 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

Alternatively run an earth cable from a stake in permanently damp ground to the refrigerator.

Which will do sweet f/a.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, bluejets said:

On 1/13/2024 at 2:59 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

Alternatively run an earth cable from a stake in permanently damp ground to the refrigerator.

Which will do sweet f/a.

Do please explain exactly how running an earth, as described above, will not provide a functional earth to the refrigerator. NB the word stake is shorthand for earth stake if this is not self evident.

 

(NOTE we already know that this is not a practical solution for the OP but that is not the point of the question to you as your claim is incredible but probably makes assumptions that are not explained).

[Crossy]

From our OP's photos we know he has no RCBO (RCD, GFI or whatever we are calling it) so making his fridge a "TT island" isn't going to do much.

 

IF the fridge is an inverter type (so has a mains filter) there could be issues with running it un-earthed and getting tingles off the casework (like one does with desktop computers run without grounding).

 

[charleskerins]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

From our OP's photos we know he has no RCBO (RCD, GFI or whatever we are calling it) so making his fridge a "TT island" isn't going to do much.

 

IF the fridge is an inverter type (so has a mains filter) there could be issues with running it un-earthed and getting tingles off the casework (like one does with desktop computers run without grounding).

 

the refrig is an invertor  type  However the shop had an electric heater installed for clients hair washing (it's a salon)    I found that it did have a ground wire and the installer ran it out the back into concrete  apparently he drove a stake/rod also.   Can i Run the refrig ground into that ground splicing it in?

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, charleskerins said:

the refrig is an invertor  type  However the shop had an electric heater installed for clients hair washing (it's a salon)    I found that it did have a ground wire and the installer ran it out the back into concrete  apparently he drove a stake/rod also.   Can i Run the refrig ground into that ground splicing it in?

 

If at all possible, avoid actually cutting the existing ground wire, strip the insulation off a section then wrap your new ground from the fridge around it making a good connection.

 

If you can, solder that joint.

 

Either way apply decent self-amalgamating tape to keep the wet out and you're good.

 

[Fruit Trader]

On 1/13/2024 at 2:59 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

Alternatively run an earth cable from a stake in permanently damp ground to the refrigerator.

 

A simple ground rod connected to the refrigerator ground terminal will not be useless (do f/a as the experts describe it).

 

Functional in that it will almost certainly handle any inverter filter currents and maybe small fault currents. How it would handle large fault currents to a level defined by the protective device can only be determined with proper fault loop test.
 

[charleskerins]

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

If at all possible, avoid actually cutting the existing ground wire, strip the insulation off a section then wrap your new ground from the fridge around it making a good connection.

 

If you can, solder that joint.

 

Either way apply decent self-amalgamating tape to keep the wet out and you're good.

 

Amen  -thanks!!!

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

A simple ground rod connected to the refrigerator ground terminal will not be useless

So true, [irony] but there maybe some special supper secret Ausie wiring that shows that the rest of the world is wrong!![/irony] NB @Fruit Trader that remark is of course not pointed your way.

6 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

Functional in that it will almost certainly handle any inverter filter currents and maybe small fault currents.

That will rather depend on the ground rod and sq mm of the conductor, it can deal with as much current as the conductor allows (though the cable supplied wit the fridge is rather small)

 

6 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

How it would handle large fault currents to a level defined by the protective device can only be determined with proper fault loop test.

A fault loop test is a really good idea, but just over engineer it by lots, make sure you add an RCCB and you are probably good to go.

Edited January 16 by sometimewoodworker