Netanyahu publicly rejects US push for Palestinian state

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, stoner said:

 

why are you laughing at yourself ? 

Could be the reason why I won't be entertaining you further.....

[placeholder]

20 minutes ago, retarius said:

Netanyahu, a modern day Hitler, currently the most evil man in the world. Self defence does not involve massacring another nation whatever they did to you. Besides that Israel an occupying force and Hamas have a legitimate right to attack Israel. End of story.

US as usual on the wrong side of history and on the right side of warmongering, which is what they excel at, but in this conflict even the stupid US public are not buying Pentagon and government propaganda. 

Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law (or rule) of Nazi analogies,^[1] is an Internet adage asserting: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."^[2]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law}

Netanyahu is bad enough as he is.

[Mavideol]

13 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

100%. And if they threatened to cut off military aid, Netanyahu would be gone in a heartbeat and some kind of treaty signed the next day.

am with u.... right now Net opens his big mouth because he knows Israel has support in the US, but that may change soon

[retarius]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law (or rule) of Nazi analogies,^[1] is an Internet adage asserting: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."^[2]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law}

Netanyahu is bad enough as he is.

He just murdered 25000 Palestinians, he's evil, not 'bad enough'. And the difference between him and Hitler is only one of scale, his racist views on subhuman Palestinians is exactly the same as Hitler's. I suppose you are cheering him on?

[retarius]

19 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The lasting solution is to defeat Hamas first, nothing can be done while they are still active and running Gaza. 

 

The lasting solution is to defeat Hamas.

 

 

Total BS nonsense. What other war has required too total annihilation of your enemy before making a lasting peace. Did Russia adopt that attitude when it defeated Hitler's Germany? No, it made peace despite the atrocities committed by the Nazis. And by the way, collective punishment is a war crime.

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

100%. And if they threatened to cut off military aid, Netanyahu would be gone in a heartbeat and some kind of treaty signed the next day.

Not going to happen for at least a while. In the US, unlike in all other economically developed nations, Israel is still favorably regarded:

 

New Polling Shows How Much Global Support Israel Has Lost

China, South Africa, Brazil, and several other countries in Latin America all went from viewing Israel positively to negatively. And many rich countries that already had net negative views of Israel—including Japan, South Korea, and the U.K.—saw steep declines. Net favorability in Japan went from -39.9 to -62.0; in South Korea from-5.5 to -47.8; and in the U.K. from -17.1 to -29.8.

The U.S. remains the only rich country that still had net positive views of Israel. Net favorability dropped just 2.2 percentage points, from a net favorability of 18.2 to a net favorability of 16 from September to December.

https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/

 

 

[Hawaiian]

33 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

A good number of Israelis including families of hostages don't agree with you. It's no coincidence that this happened a year or so after the most extreme far right religious nutcase government ever was elected in Israel.

Read my posts again. Placeholder caught on right away.  I am referring to a scenario after the conflict is over.  As to the fate of the hostages, nobody knows.  Seems that you are very familiar with nutcases.  Wonder why?

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, retarius said:

Total BS nonsense. What other war has required too total annihilation of your enemy before making a lasting peace. Did Russia adopt that attitude when it defeated Hitler's Germany? No, it made peace despite the atrocities committed by the Nazis. And by the way, collective punishment is a war crime.

For someone who made this vile comment, I won't be engaging with you.

 

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, retarius said:

He just murdered 25000 Palestinians, he's evil, not 'bad enough'. And the difference between him and Hitler is only one of scale, his racist views on subhuman Palestinians is exactly the same as Hitler's. I suppose you are cheering him on?

Unhinged much? I think most members posting in this forum would find it laughable to seem me characterized as someone who would cheer Netanyahu on.

It may be that Netanyahu holds bigoted views of the Palestinians. He's certainly callous enough But if he does hold such views, he's too smart to voice them publicly. Whereas Hitler wasn't exactly reluctant to share his views about Jews and other groups he called subhuman and degenerate. 

Honestly, if you want to help the Palestinian cause, the best thing you could do for it is to refrain from posting.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Not going to happen for at least a while. In the US, unlike in all other economically developed nations, Israel is still favorably regarded:

 

New Polling Shows How Much Global Support Israel Has Lost

China, South Africa, Brazil, and several other countries in Latin America all went from viewing Israel positively to negatively. And many rich countries that already had net negative views of Israel—including Japan, South Korea, and the U.K.—saw steep declines. Net favorability in Japan went from -39.9 to -62.0; in South Korea from-5.5 to -47.8; and in the U.K. from -17.1 to -29.8.

The U.S. remains the only rich country that still had net positive views of Israel. Net favorability dropped just 2.2 percentage points, from a net favorability of 18.2 to a net favorability of 16 from September to December.

https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/

 

 

 

I think it couyld happen quite soon. Biden is likely not to run over his stance because enough younger Americans are furious with him for not applying pressure on Israel.

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, retarius said:

Total BS nonsense. What other war has required too total annihilation of your enemy before making a lasting peace. Did Russia adopt that attitude when it defeated Hitler's Germany? No, it made peace despite the atrocities committed by the Nazis. And by the way, collective punishment is a war crime.

Well, if collective punishment is a war crime, then Russia  has some 'splaining to do:

The Expulsions of Ethnic Germans from East-Central Europe at the End of World War II

The largest number of  those forced migrants, expellees, in fact, were ethnic Germans who were forced out of their  home communities in many parts of East‐Central and Eastern Europe as they fled from the  advancing Soviet military forces or were deliberately expelled by the Soviet authorities and  the new communist‐led governments in East‐Central Europe.  That movement of ethnic  Germans included between 12 and 14 million people, probably the largest single forced  migration in modern history.  Counting deaths due to starvation and disease as well as mob  attacks and massacres, the casualties among the German expellees ran to between 500,000  and 600,000 people, as asserted in recent discussions—although some partisan observers  have claimed that more than two million may have died.   

https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/178402/The Expulsions of Ethnic Germans from East-Central Europe at the End of World War II.pdf?isAllowed=y&sequence=1

[newbee2022]

Biden, please cut off all help for Israel if Netanyahu will not agree 🙏🙏🙏

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I think it couyld happen quite soon. Biden is likely not to run over his stance because enough younger Americans are furious with him for not applying pressure on Israel.

I don't know that all that many are furious. Certainly, far more likely to take a dim view of Israel due to its treatment of Palestinians even before this war.

[placeholder]

Just now, placeholder said:

I don't know that all that many are furious. Certainly, far more likely to take a dim view of Israel due to its treatment of Palestinians even before this war.

I don't think it will much of a game changer for Biden. Fortunately for him, his likely opponent was way over the top in his support for Israel.

[ozimoron]

10 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I don't think it will much of a game changer for Biden. Fortunately for him, his likely opponent was way over the top in his support for Israel.

 

The Abraham Accords were essentially intended to setup a military bloc including the US, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Israel to counter the Houtis, Hezbollah and Iran whose military power is becoming quite formidable. The dancing with the sword stunt (and the accords themselves) was extremely provocative for conflict in the region and I believe was a major contributor to the October 7 Hamas terrorist attack.

 

Diplomacy was always a better option. Note that the Iranians have not gotten directly involved with Israel as yet. Netanyahu's government is doing it's utmost to provoke such a war. Hezbollah has also been quite restrained compared to what they are capable of.

[Hawaiian]

Just now, placeholder said:

I don't know that all that many are furious. Certainly, far more likely to take a dim view of Israel due to its treatment of Palestinians even before this war.

Agree.  The pro-Palestinians demonstrators making the news are not representative of the general American population. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/

[stoner]

37 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Most of the same people defending US aid to Israel are also against US aid to Ukraine. And any other country for that matter.

 

where did you get that assumption from ? also link to back up this claim please. 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

Agree.  The pro-Palestinians demonstrators making the news are not representative of the general American population. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/

 

I never implied that they were a majority. There's enough of them to turn the general election into a loser for Biden. Even if they just stay home which is highly likely. I'm predicting the lowest turnout presidential election as a % of voters in US history. The loss of the youth vote would be particularly devastating for the dems.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

Agree.  The pro-Palestinians demonstrators making the news are not representative of the general American population. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/

On the other hand, given the trend, backers of Israel shouldn't be encouraged by the trend.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

On the other hand, given the trend, backers of Israel shouldn't be encouraged by the trend.

 

The simple fact that 35% of Amercans say that Israel is mainly to blame is really a problem for Biden. It isn't that Biden supports Israel but that he refuses to apply pressure to stop the war crimes.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

You don't think just by itself, his push to defang the Supreme Court is enough to qualify him as an extreme rightist? And given the composition of the current government, does it even matter whether that term corresponds to what Netanyahu may believe?

 

No. He's an opportunist. He's about Netanyahu. Ideology comes in distant second. The whole Supreme Court thing is a product of circumstances - namely his ongoing legal cases. It never featured very highly on his to-do list in the past, and it was not even a key element in the last election campaign. The ones leading the charge (and are more ideologically invested in it) use his predicament to push this through. As pointed out recently, the Israeli representative to the ICJ case is basically the man vilified as the root cause for the 'need to overhaul' the system. Netanyhu picked him knowing it would go down badly with his supporters (it did), because the immediate threat demanded it. Goes to show he's quite capable of shifting positions when it suits. Of course, it also offers the chance to lay it all on him if things go pear shaped.

 

The current Israeli government certainly is right-wing. Some major elements can certainly be labeled as extreme, many are just useful idiots (mostly from Netanyahu's party), non entities, who just wait to see where the wind blows, and then shout as hard as they can.

 

I think it matters which labels are used, as it gives incorrect insights as to decision, positions and stances of leaders.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Do you think he is guilty?

 

With regard to his court cases? Yes.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Hawaiian said:

I will not comment further because I am not that well versed on the internal politics of Israel.  And neither is the rest of the world.  Many are easily influenced by what they see and read in the media.

 

I daresay most leaders dealing with Israel are well informed about it's domestic politics.

Agree that many are influenced by media memes, this forum being no different.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

A Palestinian state is not going to be established until all the Arab parties can renounce the concept of destroying Israel, including Hamas.

IMO Israel would be open to a Palestinian state, IF it had security guarantees from the Palestinians themselves.

If someone is trying to kill me, I see no reason not to respond in kind.

 

There is no unified Israel point of view on this. Apart from the security considerations (which are legit), there are many Israelis which see things from a right-wing religious perspective - meaning it's an ideological issue, so not so easily dismissed or agreed upon. There are extremists on both sides, each holding on to it's own version of not coming to terms.

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, stoner said:

 

i'm all ears on how you defeat an idealism and mindset. 

 

You do not. Or at least not much. It is not required.

All that needs to be done is to take away their being a credible threat.

This can be a lengthy, ongoing effort, but it's not impossible.

 

There are past instances of such groups either being rendered less of a threat, or even beaten hard enough as to affect a change of agenda.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I agree Netanyahu will be forced out but because of October 7 the Israeli right wing is stronger than ever.

Neither side wants two states anyway.

Nothing new in that.

 

I don't think current polls suggest that the right-wing elements will be spared the political culling. What does seem to be on the cards are shifts within the right-wing, with more support shifting to the more extreme elements. Not a bad thing, IMO, makes the lines between acceptable and not clearer.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, stoner said:

 

that won't do anything but anger those left over. which in turn will cause them to push harder against. which in turn will create more. aaaaaaaaand cycle continues. 

 

What do you suggest, then?

[stoner]

Just now, Morch said:

 

What do you suggest, then?

 

keep reading...

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

if the US stopped sending  $$$  to Israel, he may (quite sure) change his mind....

 

I think he feels secure enough knowing it's unlikely to happen.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

100%. And if they threatened to cut off military aid, Netanyahu would be gone in a heartbeat and some kind of treaty signed the next day.

 

@ozimoron

 

More of your nonsense.

 

How would Netanyahu be 'gone in a heartbeat'? By what process?

As for an 'some kind of treaty' being signed 'the next day' - you're either fantasizing, or have no clue as to the complexity of the issues involved.