WDSmart Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Yes, Palestinians do not accept Israels right to exist . Israel could have done what the USA did and killed all the locals and wiped out the American Indians ? Israelis then could live peacefully like Americans do Yes! I've used that very analogy before myself. (But wouldn't now since it is over a century old.) That's called "genocide," isn't it? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Hamas the the elected leaders of Gaza Palestinians Again, look back at the polling data from July 2023 - 70% of them do not want Hamas, they want the PA. Try to understand that they have not had an election in over 18 years. Blurring the line between Hamas and Palestinians is exactly why Israel now has to face genocide hearings for the next few years to try and prove their innocence. Are you also advocating for the destruction of all Palestinians? If not, then why are you trying to conflate the two? If so, then you've outed yourself as someone who wishes to destroy an entire population. Not a good place to be. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Just now, ozimoron said: How do you level 85% of the buildings with 200 2,000 bombs and more ammo than was dropped in just about any war in the last 50 years and claim with a straight face that Israel was trying to minimize casualties? This is precisely why SA took it to the ICJ. And why 100 countries voted in the UN for an immediate ceasefire. Easy, its in the ICJ testimony submitted by Israel and here https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/how-is-the-idf-minimizing-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza I've still got a straight face thanks....... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Just now, Bkk Brian said: Easy, its in the ICJ testimony submitted by Israel and here https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/how-is-the-idf-minimizing-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza I've still got a straight face thanks....... The testimony failed to impress 17 judges. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 29 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: The truth is, in July 2023, a few weeks prior to the Oct 7, 70% of Gazans wanted the PA to lead Gaza, they were sick and tired of Hamas, and have not had a chance to elect them out since they won in 2006/7. The start of the conflict was very unpopular. Palestinians did not want this war, and do not want Hamas in control. The Palestinian Authority doesn't accept Israel's right exist either . The P.A and Hamas oppose each other , but they both oppose Israel . You seem to be making the false claim that Gazians want the P.A in charge , so they can have peace with Israel . But the P.A have a similar stance to Israel as Hamas do . Neither of them accept Israels right to exist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 2 minutes ago, ozimoron said: The testimony failed to impress 17 judges. Really? no ceasefire, do you want to go through this again? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 15 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: The Palestinian Authority doesn't accept Israel's right exist either . The P.A and Hamas oppose each other , but they both oppose Israel . You seem to be making the false claim that Gazians want the P.A in charge , so they can have peace with Israel . But the P.A have a similar stance to Israel as Hamas do . Neither of them accept Israels right to exist Categorically false. Try again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 12 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: Categorically false. Try again. Here is Abbas, the P.A leader stating that Palestinians will never recognise Israel as a Jewish state Abbas: Palestinians will never recognize Israel as Jewish state https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-palestinians-will-never-recognize-israel-as-jewish-state/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Here is Abbas, the P.A leader stating that Palestinians will never recognise Israel as a Jewish state Abbas: Palestinians will never recognize Israel as Jewish state https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-palestinians-will-never-recognize-israel-as-jewish-state/ They suspended recognition after Donald Trump put their consulate in Jerusalem. They have recognized Israel for a long long time. Trump got them to 'suspend' recognition. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/3/6/pa-reconsiders-recognition-of-israel Quote The PA and the PLO — both of which recognize Israel — are both led by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah movement. According to Erekat, Trump’s decision last December to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital “was intended to isolate Jerusalem but has instead isolated the U.S.” “We can only implement the [PLO] Central Council’s recommendation to suspend recognition of Israel until Israel recognizes the state of Palestine,” Erekat said. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 6 hours ago, WDSmart said: As I've noted in detail in a prior post, I refer to the people of Israel as "Israelis" and the right-wing, militant faction there as "Zionists." Just as I refer to the people of Gaza and The West Bank as "Palestinians" and the right-wing, militant faction there as "Hamas." Your labels are the product of ignorance. Zionists can be left-wing, pro-peace, secular, and against the government - but still serve in the IDF, and/or fight in the Gaza Strip. That's not an opinion - these are facts. Same goes for your contrived nonsense regarding Hamas - All of the Hamas men are Palestinians. There are no non-Palestinian Hamas members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 51 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said: Really? no ceasefire, do you want to go through this again? If there's not a dramatic reduction in civilian deaths, destruction of civilian infrastructure and facilitation of humanitarian aid there will be an order for a ceasefire in a month. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 9 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: They suspended recognition after Donald Trump put their consulate in Jerusalem. They have recognized Israel for a long long time. Trump got them to 'suspend' recognition. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/3/6/pa-reconsiders-recognition-of-israel The USA can put its Embassy wherever it wants to in Israel and that is between Israel and the USA and no other Country . The P.A decided themselves to suspend recognition of Israel, that was the P.As choice and decision by them . Trump didn't get the P.A to suspend recognition of Israel , the P.A did it themselves 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 5 hours ago, Brickleberry said: We can't expect Zionists & Hamas to come to any agreement. Both parties believe they have sole rights to all of the land between the river and the sea. Israel is right to try and remove Hamas, but they are doing it in the wrong way. You don't blow up entire buildings because one or two terrorists - who are using guerrilla warfare tactics - have popped off a few rounds and then scurried back into their tunnels. You don't warn an entire population to move, and then blow up all of the buildings. Surely warning the terrorists that this area will be bombed is not a good strategy for killing the enemy. But it does make life in Gaza even more unbearable for the poor souls left to live in the rubble. This is why I believe they are committing ethnic cleansing of the area, and committing thousands of war crimes as they are being very indiscriminate with their methods. Anyone who is afraid of the ICC investigating war crimes is obviously guilty of them, and this is precisely why Israel won't allow any investigations. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56687437 Remember the late Rabin? That Prime Minister of Israel (which you labeled as a Palestinian leader)? He was a Zionist. You described him as a man of peace or something. But he was also the Chief of the IDF at one time, Minister of Defense and so on. And that's just one example. Being a Zionist is not quite what you imagine. It's a wide enough definition which allows for multiple points of view. Not all of them have to do with extremism, religious views, or expansion. Equating Zionism with Hamas's ideology is nonsense - Hamas does not have anything resembling this range of views and positions. Do you have any practical views on what Israel should be doing differently when fighting Hamas? Or does all you can come with is pointing out how not to? What you believe is immaterial - and warning civilians is actually an existing provision. If it was not done, you'd have more of a point regarding possible war crimes. You linked an article from 2021, well done. Maybe try for something more updates - the chief ICC prosecutor actually visited Israel shortly after the war started. This was covered on topics here back when. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, WDSmart said: Yes, there are two sides, and neither side is what it pretends to be. One side is trying to expel those who are forcibly occupying land that they have lived in for centuries and believe is theirs. The other side is trying to occupy land that they believe has been given to them by the most powerful Western states of the world and their "God" by expelling the former occupants I see no end to this conflict. Israel is nor forcibly occupying it's territory. There was that 1947 UN vote. Maybe you heard about it. Similarly, Israel is not trying to occupy the Gaza Strip. Learn the facts, then twist them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, WDSmart said: I'm only responding to the @OneMoreFarang post quoted above... Let's say you live in a great big two- or three-story house a total of 10 rooms. You live there mostly with your family and just a few others. One day, someone comes who claims to "own" the house and tells you that they have given it to another family who will be moving in over the next several weeks. As this new family moves in, they slowly force your family out of the rooms they occupied, often by force, and eventually into just two rooms, which are, of course, now very crowded. That's an analogy of what's happened to the large house called "Palestine" that is now called "Israel." The two single rooms where your family lives now are on different floors, and the occupants are not allowed to freely visit each other. These rooms are called "Gaza" and "The West Bank." How would you feel, and what would you try to do about it? Again, and as always, this is MY OPINION as to what has happened in Palestine over the past hundred years or so. What is it with you wannabe 'pro-palestinian' posters and them over-simplistic analogies? Again, and as always, your opinion is based on faulty knowledge, and is mostly nonsense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, Neeranam said: Israel have absolutely no right to tell Gazans to get out of their homes, what utter nonsense. The legal expert have spoken....if Israel would not tell them to evacuate, it would be a war crime. Warning civilians is one of them things armies are supposed to do. Most do not bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 5 hours ago, WDSmart said: We agree there will be no end to this conflict. I won't bother responding to your points one by one, but I will say I only completely disagree with #1 if you believe in the story of Exodus in the Old Testament or the Torah. Anyway, in the 1920s, the Jewish population in the territory called Palestine was only about 9%. Palestine | HISTORY , Religion & Conflicts | HISTORY You ask for your 'mistakes' to be pointed out. They are pointed out. Your response - 'I won't bother yada yada yada'. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, WDSmart said: Yes, the UN voted for that. The occupants of the territory, the Palestinians, didn't. There were Jews living there as well. Not just Palestinians. They did not vote as well. What's your point? How could they vote in the UN without being a country first? And no, there was no Palestinian State before that. Ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, Neeranam said: Attributing the start of this conflict solely to one party is contentious, given the region's intricate history. Some narratives suggest that Israel's establishment in 1948 catalyzed tensions and subsequent conflicts in the region. The partition of Palestine by the United Nations, leading to the creation of the state of Israel, resulted in the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, engendering deep-seated resentment and hostility. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War, immediately following Israel's declaration of independence, saw neighboring Arab states invading to support Palestinian interests and contest Israel's existence. Subsequent events, including the 1967 Six-Day War, where Israel captured territories such as the West Bank and Gaza Strip, further entrenched hostilities and fueled Palestinian resistance movements. Israel's policies regarding settlements, land annexation, and occupation have been contentious points, exacerbating tensions and contributing to the perpetuation of the conflict in the region. Israel played a significant role in initiating and perpetuating this conflict. A. You are routinely attributing all sorts of blame solely to Israel. B. I don't believe you authored the bit above. Copy/pasted, maybe with minor edits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said: There will be an end to the conflict only when one side is destroyed - whichever one. 1920s?? Are you serious - the Jews lived in those lands thousands of years ago. When WW2 ended there was still a lot of Jews living in those lands. When WW2 ended many more Jews returned to their 'homeland'. History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel - Wikipedia No shortage of past conflicts in which people said or thought along similar lines, and which nowadays are either settled or almost forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 21 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: The USA can put its Embassy wherever it wants to in Israel and that is between Israel and the USA and no other Country . The P.A decided themselves to suspend recognition of Israel, that was the P.As choice and decision by them . Trump didn't get the P.A to suspend recognition of Israel , the P.A did it themselves Ah, like when you say Israel isn't to blame for killing thousands, it's all Hamas' fault? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, Neeranam said: They don't have equal rights. It's easier for Jews from other countries to become an Israeli citizen that a Palestinian who marries an Israeli , for example. Yes....and? Do Palestinians have better rights elsewhere in the Middle East? Do people in the ME, in general, have better rights and freedoms? You don't seem that 'upset' or 'excited' about any of that. Israel is certainly not perfect, but not quite as horrible as you paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 minute ago, Brickleberry said: Ah, like when you say Israel isn't to blame for killing thousands, it's all Hamas' fault? No, its not like that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Just now, Nick Carter icp said: No, its not like that LOL. Double standards on display ;) have a good day! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 4 hours ago, Neeranam said: It was a stupid, racial thing for him to say anyway, implying that all Muslims are terrorists is one of the reasons I want nothing to do with him. By saying 'well said' means you are an Islamophobe too. There was nothing said about 'all Muslims'. You're just making up stuff and tossing baseless accusation in order to flame others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 18 minutes ago, Wobblybob said: Why do you feel to go off topic and announce that you have childishly put posters with far more intellect than yourself on ignore. Personally I don't think that they'll be none too bothered as reading your posts is absolutely dire. We can still read their posts and reply to them , they can still read our posts by clicking on them , its just that they cannot reply to our posts without acknowledging that they've been reading the posts . They put themselves at a disadvantage by not being able to reply to points raised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said: As far as I am concerned all the people who murdered and raped and took hostages on Oct 7 th should be punished. And the people who didn't do that should not end up dead as collateral damage. There are no 'clean' wars. Innocents always get hurt. Putting up an impossible bar is not a valid position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 4 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: LOL. Double standards on display ;) have a good day! It was a bit to taxing to think about it and to compare the two . Like : Is the USA putting its Embassy in Jerusalem similar to blaming Hamas for the deaths in Gaza Errrrrrrrr , let me think about that for a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, Brickleberry said: There is no point talking - you say they are trying to minimize casualties but this is categorically untrue. You bring up the Nazis and Japan, but they have no relevance to this conversation. They are both countries who went to war. Gaza is an occupied territory that has been under siege for 18 years. No parity at all. Hamas went to war against Israel. Let's get that straight - then you can try and twist things to fit your agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, Brickleberry said: Again, the court case is not about Hamas. It is about Israel's behavior in Gaza now, and protecting the innocents. There was no mention of the hostages, then? Nothing whatsoever said about Hamas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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