Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[Brickleberry]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

Again, another wannabe 'pro-palestinian' poster who says I'm on 'ignore', then replies to my post.

 

There was no ruling on Hamas because it wasn't what South Africa's motion was about. The fact that the court saw fit to add a comment on that regardless, speaks volumes. IF you think that will go away, or will not be meaningful - you're deluding yourself.

 

 

 

No, that is not how international law works:

 

 https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react/experts-react-what-the-international-court-of-justice-said-and-didnt-say-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel/

 

Quote

Lastly, it is worth noting that the ICJ only has jurisdiction over states, not over acts committed by Hamas and other Palestinian groups. It thus could not have issued orders to preserve evidence related to crimes that may have been committed by these groups in this case. Nor does the ICJ have the power to issue an order relating to evidence of war crimes or crimes against humanity. To ensure future accountability, Israel should seek to preserve evidence relating to all atrocity crimes in this conflict.

 

[Brickleberry]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

This was debated and linked all over the place on the earlier topics. Polls showing all sorts of polls and positions. Is your nonsense claim now that the figures you cited are eternal? That it was always like this? No changes? No shifts?

 

Even when you 'retract' or 'admit', you don't really do so - but keep digging. Just to remind of the last two - 'thousands of children and women imprisoned by Israel', 'Rabin the Palestinian pro-peace leader'. More such before that.

 

My results are from July 2023 - the most recent prior to the conflict.

 

My comment on an old thread was made when I was a bit drunk... I am happy to admit i was wrong in that regard.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I wonder why he believe this to be true. Any idea?

 

   He has stated it numerous times .

 

[Morch]

34 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

If Israel was trying to kill terrorists, they wouldn't warn them to evacuate and blow up all of the buildings. They are clearly trying to make Gaza unlivable.

 

@Brickleberry

 

If Israel would not have provided warning, and killed many more civilians, you'd complain about that.

Providing civilians with warning before attacks is one example of how things are supposed to be. Many armies do not bother.

Not sure what you're on about with regard to the warnings, it's practically one of the sole things that Israel cannot be faulted much on.

[connda]

There seems to be two kinds of opinions here:
Firstly - those who believe genocide in any form is a crime against humanity and that all who commit genocide need to be brought to justice.
Secondly - those who believe in an Eye For An Eye and believe that one side or the other is in the right and should be allow to continue their slaughter. 

I am staunchly in the first category.  Globally, I don't believe I'm in the minority.  In this forum, I am in the minority.
Just saying.  I find the Eye For An Eye position to be savage, uncivilized, and unconscionably position to hold.  That's probably the latent Christian that still resides within me.  Color me a Buddhist-tinted Christian.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I'm so glad you mentioned this! Actually yes, the Palestinian people went on peaceful protests for over a year and a half. The great march of return.

 

Every Friday they would march to the wall peacefully and do you know what happened? Israeli snipers on the wall shot thousands of them IRA style. Kneecaps and elbows to permanently disable them.

 

To this day, Israel has refused the ICC permission to investigate these crimes. They even shot dead a world famous journalist at the time. Thousands were shot at, hundreds were killed (including children). Do you know how many Israelis were hurt or killed during these protests? Zero.

 

https://afsc.org/news/what-great-return-march

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56687437

 

 

@Brickleberry

 

 I was referring to protests against against Hamas, which you claim was extremely unpopular.

 

But as for the protests (which yeah, I do have/had an inside track on) you are wrong. They were not about acknowledging Israel as per a two-state solution. They were about 'the right of return' - which de-facto implies an end to Israel. As for protests being 'peaceful' try selling it to someone who doesn't have a clue. They were indeed planned as such, but nothing much but the slogans remained after Hamas took over the operation.

 

Again, nothing to do with what you initially posted about, nothing to do with my comment.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

If there's not a dramatic reduction in civilian deaths, destruction of civilian infrastructure and facilitation of humanitarian aid there will be an order for a ceasefire in a month.

Crystal ball time now, if and more if's. We can all do if's

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

If Israel would not have provided warning, and killed many more civilians, you'd complain about that.

Providing civilians with warning before attacks is one example of how things are supposed to be. Many armies do not bother.

Not sure what you're on about with regard to the warnings, it's practically one of the sole things that Israel cannot be faulted much on.

 

No, my problem is with 2000 pound, unguided (dumb) bombs being used in the first place!

 

Don't you get it? Hamas are underneath Gaza. These bombs have little to no effect on the tunnels, and the Hamas terrorists hiding in them. They are great at demolishing neighborhoods and civilians very far away from the bombed site though:

https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html

Quote

The heavy munitions, mostly manufactured by the US, can cause high casualty events and can have a lethal fragmentation radius – an area of exposure to injury or death around the target – of up to 365 meters (about 1,198 feet), or the equivalent of 58 soccer fields in area.

 

However, Israel can take out commanders in Lebanon with extreme precision, and no civilian casualties. Does this not make you wonder what they are doing?

[ozimoron]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Crystal ball time now, if and more if's. We can all do if's

 

The court required that Israel do more.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

No, same issue.

 

 

 

@Brickleberry

 

There were two instances of that, on different grounds, and with somewhat different emphasis. I have touched on the other in a reply to another post above.

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   There wasn't much reaction at all when the Embassy got moved to Jerusalem .

Mass unrest was expected, which just didnt materialise

 

So it came later, what of it?

It was a stupid decision, which did nothing for USA interests.

[Neeranam]

10 minutes ago, connda said:

I am staunchly in the first category.  Globally, I don't believe I'm in the minority.  In this forum, I am in the minority.
Just saying.  I find the Eye For An Eye position to be savage, uncivilized, and unconscionably position to hold.  That's probably the latent Christian that still resides within me.  Color me a Buddhist-tinted Christian.

Me too. 

We are in the minority as the Israelis fundamentalists force anyone against them to leave.

[Brickleberry]

54 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

I was referring to protests against against Hamas, which you claim was extremely unpopular. What a lame deflection.

 

But as for the protests (which yeah, I do have/had an inside track on) you are wrong. They were not about acknowledging Israel as per a two-state solution. They were about 'the right of return' - which de-facto implies an end to Israel. As for protests being 'peaceful' try selling it to someone who doesn't have a clue. They were indeed planned as such, but nothing much but the slogans remained after Hamas took over the operation.

 

Again, nothing to do with what you initially posted about, nothing to do with my comment.

 

 

And the right of return was a key part of the demands in the Oslo accords... this is what they want to bring peace. This was one of the many reasons Arrafat declined - not only because they would have very limited right to return (I think 5000 was the figure?).

 

Hamas were actually against the peaceful protests, but still the Palestinians did it. Showing they want peace, and ignoring Hamas. It was also a march to demand an end to the occupation and blockade of the Gaza strip.

 

It would not mean the end of Israel at all! This is another lie perpetuated by those who would offer fear. Israel would still have twice as many Jewish residents than Arabs, even if every single person in the Gaza strip moved to Israel. Note, not every single person in Gaza is a refugee of Israel, I think the figure is around 65%.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The court required that Israel do more.

Yes we all know that, its page 12 already, I would repeat some of my posts where it has all the measures but you can look back.....lol

[Nick Carter icp]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So it came later, what of it?

It was a stupid decision, which did nothing for USA interests.

 

   Isn't it normal and regular for Countries to have their Embassy in the Capital city (of the other Country) ?

   It would be questioning Israels choice of their own Capital city to have an Embassy elsewhere 

[Morch]

26 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

By this reasoning, BNP members are British, so all British people are racist?

(If you are unaware - I don't know where you hail from - the BNP was a hugely racist party in Britain a few years back)

 

This is exactly why Israel has been taken to court successfully. No distinction between the two.

 

@Brickleberry

 

No, this is not my reasoning, this is you spewing some irrelevant analogy. Already opined on what these are worth in this context.

 

The point made was that some of you are trying to paint the Hamas as being non-Palestinian, a separate entity, something that doesn't have to do with or reflects on Palestinians. This is beyond bizarre. We're talking about a movement which (depending on which poll and date) is either the first or second largest in Palestinian politics. Then you've got all the social projects which run deep, and the military wing. 

 

You can make distinctions between the PA and Hamas. Or claim that many Palestinians do or do not support Hamas (fully or partially etc.), but what you're trying to do is a step further - and it does not hold.

 

Again, there was nothing said about all Palestinians, there wasn't even something said about all Hamas members (of which many are not military wing).

 

By the way, Hamas itself does not practice these distinctions - certainly not with regard to casualty figures. All are presented as Palestinian civilians.

 

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Yes we all know that, its page 12 already, I would repeat some of my posts where it has all the measures but you can look back.....lol

 

The court is cognisant of the measures Israel has already taken. They clearly don't consider them to be enough and required Israel to do more. More means more. And the court directed Israel to report on the measures it has taken during the month to prevent civilian casualties and to permit food and humanitarian aid. The implication is clearly that if the court doesn't consider those measures to be sufficient it will order a ceasefire. It can only ignore South Africa's request for a ceasefire as long as it thinks other methods are working.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

No, that is not how international law works:

 

 https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react/experts-react-what-the-international-court-of-justice-said-and-didnt-say-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel/

 

 

for all your obfuscation - the ICJ saw fit to reference the hostage situation. What does that tell you?

[Bkk Brian]

39 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The court is cognisant of the measures Israel has already taken. They clearly don't consider them to be enough and required Israel to do more. More means more. And the court directed Israel to report on the measures it has taken during the month to prevent civilian casualties and to permit food and humanitarian aid. The implication is clearly that if the court doesn't consider those measures to be sufficient it will order a ceasefire. It can only ignore South Africa's request for a ceasefire as long as it thinks other methods are working.

 

No ceasefire, report in one months time on what they have done to address measures below them.

 

Court also states that Hamas must release all hostages with no pre conditions.

 

Provisional measures ruled by the judges of the ICJ:
Israel shall :
* take all measures to avoid breach of genocide treaty.
* insure that the IDF does not commit offences of genocide treaty.
*  take all measures to prevent and punish those committing incitement to genocide.
* take immediate measure to provide humanitarian aid.
* take all measure to preserve evidence.
 * submit a report - in one month - describe its action to follow the provisions measures.

[Brickleberry]

54 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

 I am engaging in a topic i care deeply about. Thousands of Palestinians are imprisoned by Israel, hundreds of women + children.

 

For someone who picks out every little detail in others posts, you don't ever seem to admit when you are wrong. For instance, the ICJ cannot rule against Hamas because it is not a country.

 

[ozimoron]

38 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

No ceasefire, report in one months time on what they have done to address measures below them.

 

Court also states that Hamas must release all hostages with no pre conditions.

 

Provisional measures ruled by the judges of the ICJ:
Israel shall :
* take all measures to avoid breach of genocide treaty.
* insure that the IDF does not commit offences of genocide treaty.
*  take all measures to prevent and punish those committing incitement to genocide.
* take immediate measure to provide humanitarian aid.
* take all measure to preserve evidence.
 * submit a report - in one month - describe its action to follow the provisions measures.

 

Correct. And what do you believe the court will do if it finds the report unsatisfactory? Nothing?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

My results are from July 2023 - the most recent prior to the conflict.

 

 

They are not 'your' results, they are results you picked up from the net. And there were plenty of those posted on earlier topics - enough to support almost any position, with the right spin. Nothing original. Again, you fail to bridge the gap between them results and the lack of any of these sentiments materializing.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

Correct. And what do you believe the court will do if it finds the report unsatisfactory? Nothing?

Yes I know its correct, I posted it earlier.....lol 

 

Lets wait and see after a month now shall we, I will let you do the speculating. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, connda said:

There seems to be two kinds of opinions here:
Firstly - those who believe genocide in any form is a crime against humanity and that all who commit genocide need to be brought to justice.
Secondly - those who believe in an Eye For An Eye and believe that one side or the other is in the right and should be allow to continue their slaughter. 

I am staunchly in the first category.  Globally, I don't believe I'm in the minority.  In this forum, I am in the minority.
Just saying.  I find the Eye For An Eye position to be savage, uncivilized, and unconscionably position to hold.  That's probably the latent Christian that still resides within me.  Color me a Buddhist-tinted Christian.

 

I believe you're framing things to fit your argument, rather than faithfully describing posters' positions.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

31 minutes ago, connda said:

There seems to be two kinds of opinions here:
Firstly - those who believe genocide in any form is a crime against humanity and that all who commit genocide need to be brought to justice.
Secondly - those who believe in an Eye For An Eye and believe that one side or the other is in the right and should be allow to continue their slaughter. 

I am staunchly in the first category.  Globally, I don't believe I'm in the minority.  In this forum, I am in the minority.
Just saying.  I find the Eye For An Eye position to be savage, uncivilized, and unconscionably position to hold.  That's probably the latent Christian that still resides within me.  Color me a Buddhist-tinted Christian.

 

   I don't think that there's  anyone who believes that Israel should behave like Hamas and commit war crimes and genocide . 

   Israel aren't attacking Gaza as revenge m they are hunting down those terrorists who committed war crimes and murder 

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

No, my problem is with 2000 pound, unguided (dumb) bombs being used in the first place!

 

Don't you get it? Hamas are underneath Gaza. These bombs have little to no effect on the tunnels, and the Hamas terrorists hiding in them. They are great at demolishing neighborhoods and civilians very far away from the bombed site though:

https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html

 

However, Israel can take out commanders in Lebanon with extreme precision, and no civilian casualties. Does this not make you wonder what they are doing?

 

@Brickleberry

 

Shifting the goalposts? Unsurprising. Your comment was about them warnings. Not you move on to other things, because obviously that was a daft complaint if there ever was one.

 

Hamas are not just in the tunnels. That's something you say, but is not true. You assume all bombs were used to attack tunnels - I don't know if that's a fact or not. Taking out a building that was booby-trapped (a whole lot of these), collapsing a building to seal a tunnel entrance, clearing a path to tanks - there are many other reasons to use them.

 

Israel can carry out super-targeted strikes on some occasions - when the intelligence is available, and the condition apply. There were some of these in the Gaza Strip as well (linked on these topics courtesy of @Bkk Brian - the one with the cat avatar). Mostly the conditions are not the same. If they were, I'm sure Israel would go for that - much better all around. If and when war breakes out with Hezbollah, you'll see the same issue - as they have their own tunnel network.

[Morch]

36 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The court required that Israel do more.

 

@ozimoron

 

The court did not order Israel to stop.

 

[Brickleberry]

24 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

No, this is not my reasoning, this is you spewing some irrelevant analogy. Already opined on what these are worth in this context.

 

The point made was that some of you are trying to paint the Hamas as being non-Palestinian, a separate entity, something that doesn't have to do with or reflects on Palestinians. This is beyond bizarre. We're talking about a movement which (depending on which poll and date) is either the first or second largest in Palestinian politics. Then you've got all the social projects which run deep, and the military wing. 

 

You can make distinctions between the PA and Hamas. Or claim that many Palestinians do or do not support Hamas (fully or partially etc.), but what you're trying to do is a step further - and it does not hold.

 

Again, there was nothing said about all Palestinians, there wasn't even something said about all Hamas members (of which many are not military wing).

 

By the way, Hamas itself does not practice these distinctions - certainly not with regard to casualty figures. All are presented as Palestinian civilians.

 

 

 

I am sorry, but that is ludicrous. I did not try to paint Hamas as being 'non-Palestinian' - but they are clearly not 'the Palestinian people' I and many others refer to. When I refer to the Palestinian people, I mean any citizen who is not a member of Hamas' terrorist, military brigades - Israel puts the number at around 30,000 Hamas terrorists. In actual fact, many countries only regard the military wing of Hamas as a terrorist organization. The political wing still has relations with other western states. 

 

The fact that all polling that I can find prior to the conflict on October 7th shows that Palestinians did not want Hamas in charge speaks volumes. The fact they have not had a chance to elect new leaders in over 18 years speaks volumes.

 

This is exactly what the court case is about, and why Israel lost its case. There must be a distinction between the Palestinian people and the military wing of Hamas.

 

Whilst it is true that Hamas does not separate civilian deaths from militant deaths, that does not mean they are the same. We certainly shouldn't be copying the terrorists in any case.

[Brickleberry]

22 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

Shifting the goalposts? Unsurprising. Your comment was about them warnings. Not you move on to other things, because obviously that was a daft complaint if there ever was one.

 

Hamas are not just in the tunnels. That's something you say, but is not true. You assume all bombs were used to attack tunnels - I don't know if that's a fact or not. Taking out a building that was booby-trapped (a whole lot of these), collapsing a building to seal a tunnel entrance, clearing a path to tanks - there are many other reasons to use them.

 

Israel can carry out super-targeted strikes on some occasions - when the intelligence is available, and the condition apply. There were some of these in the Gaza Strip as well (linked on these topics courtesy of @Bkk Brian - the one with the cat avatar). Mostly the conditions are not the same. If they were, I'm sure Israel would go for that - much better all around. If and when war breakes out with Hezbollah, you'll see the same issue - as they have their own tunnel network.

 

This is why it is impossible to engage with you. You just make stuff up. I am clearly talking about the same thing in the post you referenced.

 

I did not say Hamas were only in the tunnels. Again, completely making stuff up! Then again, it is so much easier to do this than to engage in anything substantive. I actually talked about their guerilla warfare tactics, and how Israel can't bomb every building just because a Hamas pops off a few shots with his piddly little rifle, and scurries back down into his tunnel to the underground 'city' Israel keeps banging on about.

 

I did not say that I assume all bombs were supposed to target tunnels. Again, completely making things up. I actually said the bombs are targeting the entire Gaza strip to make it unlivable.

 

Logic also dictates that if you warn the area that they will bomb all of the buildings, then the enemy will not be there when you bomb it. So what is the point of destroying almost half of all housing in Gaza - population over 2 million, when there are only 30,000 Hamas members? You are clearly just trying to bomb all of the buildings and make it unliveable.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/world-bank-report-finds-45-of-residential-buildings-in-gaza-ruined-beyond-repair/

 

Quote

World Bank report finds 45% of residential buildings in Gaza ruined beyond repair

 

 

Your final point is just unbelievable.

 

[Amethyst]

More off-topic, flame and bickering comments have been removed.

 

Please CEASE with the recurring snarky comments and insults aimed at your fellow forum members!