Allegations of UN Agency Staff Involvement in Hamas Attacks Prompt U.S. Funding Pause

[Brickleberry]

9 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  You made the false  claim that UNRWA members just supported Hamas and I pointed out that UNRWA members were actually members of Hamas who participated in the terror attacks , rather than just being supporters .

   There are huge differences between  just being a supporter and being an active member 

No, I didn't. Stop lying and moving the goalposts to attempt to justify your nonsense post. I stated in my original comment the following:

 

Note that you have not responded to any of the other valid points raised in the post, nor have you admitted that your choice of words would lead people to believe you implied all. It is also worth noting that no one has seen any of the evidence, so we do not know what they are supposed to have done yet.

 

If I say the Israeli government, that would refer to all of the Israeli government? Yes, it would. If I say some of the Israeli government, or the right wing elements of the government, that would refer to some. Choose your words carefully next time.

 

Edited January 28 by Brickleberry

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

No, I didn't. Stop lying and moving the goalposts to attempt to justify your nonsense post. I stated in my original comment the following:

 

Note that you have not responded to any of the other valid points raised in the post, nor have you admitted that your choice of words would lead people to believe you implied all.

 

If I say the Israeli government, that would refer to all of the Israeli government? Yes, it would. If I say some of the Israeli government, or the right wing elements of the government, that would refer to some. Choose your words carefully next time.

 

 

   I was replying to this post of yours 

 

"Is it really surprising that an agency that has to hire local people will have some local people supporting Hamas? 

 

[Brickleberry]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I was replying to this post of yours 

 

"Is it really surprising that an agency that has to hire local people will have some local people supporting Hamas? 

 

 

And this was a general comment in response to Morch - who stated that the UNRWA should be dissolved and a new one started. We were talking about future operations, not the present day. Please stop taking my posts out of context, read what they are in response to. Note the future auxiliary verb 'will'. This indicates a future state, not the current one.

 

I suggested that the UNRWA had done a good job of keeping Hamas sympathizers out of the organization - 0.0007% were accused - because Israel has claimed only 12 individuals have done something during Oct 7.

 

We do not know what they accused of, so It would be wrong to imply they were busy killing babies or whatever other nonsense Israel supporters spout.

[Brickleberry]

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   When were Israel previously caught lying ?

 

Countless times over decades. However, lets stick to the most recent conflict. This is an article from October 10th 2023 outlining Israeli propaganda and fake videos.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/israel-attacks-video-disinformation.html

 

It doesn't even include the 40 beheaded babies - or babies being put in ovens, or babies hanging on a washing line, a pregnant woman with her baby cut out... there are endless lies that have been debunked in Israeli media. That all came a little later than 3 days after the main event.

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

And this was a general comment in response to Morch - who stated that the UNRWA should be dissolved and a new one started. We were talking about future operations, not the present day. Please stop taking my posts out of context, read what they are in response to. Note the future auxiliary verb 'will'. This indicates a future state, not the current one.

 

I suggested that the UNRWA had done a good job of keeping Hamas sympathizers out of the organization - 0.0007% were accused - because Israel has claimed only 12 individuals have done something during Oct 7.

 

We do not know what they accused of, so It would be wrong to imply they were busy killing babies or whatever other nonsense Israel supporters spout.

 

   You still don't understand , the 12 UNRWA employees were MEMBERS of Hamas , they were not sympathisers .

   There were not 0.0007 % Hamas sympathisers in UNRWA , that is the amount of Hamas members

They participated  in a terror attack

  

 

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Countless times over decades. However, lets stick to the most recent conflict. This is an article from October 10th 2023 outlining Israeli propaganda and fake videos.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/israel-attacks-video-disinformation.html

 

It doesn't even include the 40 beheaded babies - or babies being put in ovens, or babies hanging on a washing line, a pregnant woman with her baby cut out... there are endless lies that have been debunked in Israeli media. That all came a little later than 3 days after the main event.

 

Link is behind a paywall and I cannot open  .

   Anyway you are telling lies , a French journalist   reported about 40  dead babies and some had been beheaded and the Israeli Government, the IDF stated that it could not confirm the reports .

   So you are wrong on that , Israel was not lying , Israel was telling the truth .

(It turns out that there was a translation confusion , she wrote babies when she meant to write children)

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Get it right. 12 members of staff out of 13,000.

Disgusting accusation.

 

@Brickleberry

 

12 so far. Almost surly more. Let the investigations and overhaul deal with that instead of making pathetic excuses.

[Morch]

55 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

But no independent evidence of any kind, right? Not saying it didn't happen but the Jerusalem Daily Propaganda (oh, did I get that wrong, my bad) is a bit suspect absent any corroborating evidence. Shall I start posting Arab propaganda to match you?

 

@ozimoron

 

Pathetic.

[Morch]

49 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

OMG. The BBC is quoting that an Israeli advisor told them. They did not make a statement of fact or claim they had verified anything. Stop insulting people's intelligence.

 

@ozimoron

 

More inane deflections.

[Brickleberry]

14 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You still don't understand , the 12 UNRWA employees were MEMBERS of Hamas , they were not sympathisers .

   There were not 0.0007 % Hamas sympathisers in UNRWA , that is the amount of Hamas members

They participated  in a terror attack

  

 

Again, I refer you back to the post where I originally stated 'they had done this". I did not claim they were just sympathizers. That came later in response to a different comment. Will you please stop badgering me about nonsense drivel.

 

If you had read the posts correctly, we would not be talking about this. Why not respond to any of the other points raised in the discussion? You have such a narrow focus on one specific thing that has no relevance, and it is something you are incorrect about.

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Countless times over decades. However, lets stick to the most recent conflict. This is an article from October 10th 2023 outlining Israeli propaganda and fake videos.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/israel-attacks-video-disinformation.html

 

It doesn't even include the 40 beheaded babies - or babies being put in ovens, or babies hanging on a washing line, a pregnant woman with her baby cut out... there are endless lies that have been debunked in Israeli media. That all came a little later than 3 days after the main event.

 

@Brickleberry

 

The evidence presented regarding the topic at hand was obviously not considered a lie.

Any other deflections you wish to try?

[CharlieH]

Reported troll comments and response removed.

 

 

[Brickleberry]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

12 so far. Almost surly more. Let the investigations and overhaul deal with that instead of making pathetic excuses.

 

At long, long last. You have admitted it is only 12 out of 13,000.

 

Your tune has changed. Now you claim to advocate for investigations, whereas previously you were asserting it was widespread and rampant in the UNRWA and they should be disbanded. Who is making pathetic excuses? You have just agreed with everything I have said in all of my posts.

[Brickleberry]

12 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

Link is behind a paywall and I cannot open  .

   Anyway you are telling lies , a French journalist   reported about 40  dead babies and some had been beheaded and the Israeli Government, the IDF stated that it could not confirm the reports .

   So you are wrong on that , Israel was not lying , Israel was telling the truth .

(It turns out that there was a translation confusion , she wrote babies when she meant to write children)

 

You can access it if you press the 'reader view' button.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, Brickleberry said:

 

You can access it if you press the 'reader view' button.

 

 

   Why don't you write it yourself ?

Can you back up your claim that Israeli Gov has lied about things ?

 

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

At long, long last. You have admitted it is only 12 out of 13,000.

 

Your tune has changed. Now you claim to advocate for investigations, whereas previously you were asserting it was widespread and rampant in the UNRWA and they should be disbanded. Who is making pathetic excuses? You have just agreed with everything I have said in all of my posts.

 

@Brickleberry

 

What is it with you and lying? I never said otherwise. I referenced the point that I doubt these are all of them or that this is what it amounts to.

 

No, my tune did not change. I advocate investigations. I also think it's impossible not to be aware it's much more widespread than that, and I also think that UNRWA should be dismantled and replaced. No contradiction, no change of tune.

 

No, I have not agreed to your nonsense. You are simply misrepresenting what I said.

[simple1]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The ones fired are just the most obvious recent cases. If you believe that's the sum of it - up to you. Obviously, donor countries and even the UN take another view - whether based on common sense, information or awareness to UNRWA's track record.

 

I have no idea why you'd think it 'extremely difficult' to identify staff actually involved with terrorism. Quite the opposite. Belonging to a large organization comes with a more significant 'footprint' as far as intelligence and investigations go. Then there's a question of what comes under 'actually involved'. Does lending an UNRWA car for Hamas use count? Does diverting some budgets? Does letting them take supplies from stocks? Or is it just the actual participation in violence?

 

UNRWA had such investigations before.  Not a whole lot changes. There aren't a whole lot of security agencies able to apply scrutiny in the Gaza Strip.

 

Having some organization, some body to manage aid for the Gaza Strip is ok. There is not requirement that it would continue to be UNRWA, or UNRWA without a serious overhaul.

 

With regard to UNRWA staff providing support for Hamas, I would assume it would be extremely challenging for UNRWA management to identify and fire them given Hamas is the ruling party at the point of a gun. I would assume UNRWA management would be in fear of death to do so, plus making changes counter to Hamas interests. How many Gazans a year are murdered by Hamas - easy to critique in a safe zone...However, I repeat IMO it is out of order to withdraw funding for UNWRA at the moment when there is apparently no other functioning humanitarian organisation with sufficient staff in Gaza.

Edited January 28 by simple1

[Brickleberry]

27 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Why don't you write it yourself ?

Can you back up your claim that Israeli Gov has lied about things ?

 

Waste of time. I send you proof, and you ignore it. I'm not going to copy and paste and entire article for you.

 

You just made the ignore list :) Have fun.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

With regard to UNRWA staff providing support for Hamas, I would assume it would be extremely challenging for UNRWA management to identify and fire them given Hamas is the ruling party at the point of a gun. I would assume UNRWA management would be in fear of death to do so, plus making changes counter to Hamas interests. How many Gazans a year are murdered by Hamas - easy to critique in a safe zone...However, I repeat IMO it is out of order to withdraw funding for UNWRA at the moment when there is apparently no other functioning humanitarian organisation with sufficient staff in Gaza.

 

Dismissing employees is a non-issue. Been done before. Hamas usually keeps quiet about that. As for UNRWA being bullied/terrorized/coerced/whatever by Hamas - that's the issue with Hamas retaining power in the Gaza Strip. As said, taking away their power, fully or partially, is one way to deal with this. Another way would be to apply stricter criteria for funds/supplies provided to UNRWA (or whichever body replaces it) involving more stringent verification measures. I have pointed out to UNRWA being in place for a long time, and said something about organization culture - this was with Hamas relations in mind. I think cozier than people imagine, at least on some levels. The point about 'safe zone' is apt, making the Gaza Strip into more of a 'safe zone' is key. That would imply less Hamas influence/power.

 

UNRWA doesn't seem to be functioning very well as it is. Considering it had years to prepare for such a crisis, and a whole lot of previous experience with war situations, their performance is dismal, even factoring in the hardship paused by the fighting, Israel and the Hamas. The new boss is also a bad pick - embodies much of the issues brought up as criticism.

 

I don't think that UNRWA's funding will be fully cut anyway, it's more like a warning shot to take things seriously. Post-war, there may be changes.

[Brickleberry]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

What is it with you and lying? I never said otherwise. I referenced the point that I doubt these are all of them or that this is what it amounts to.

 

No, my tune did not change. I advocate investigations. I also think it's impossible not to be aware it's much more widespread than that, and I also think that UNRWA should be dismantled and replaced. No contradiction, no change of tune.

 

No, I have not agreed to your nonsense. You are simply misrepresenting what I said.

 

If they are dismantled and replaced, would a new organization not have the same issues? I imagine it is impossible to completely avoid hiring a few Hamas supporters/militants etc. 0009% is quite a good number in my opinion, and unless further information is forthcoming, we should assume the rest are OK.

 

If further evidence comes out that says a large proportion of UNRWA workers are Hamas members, then of course they should be disbanded, but this is highly unlikely.

 

The UNRWA publishes a list of names with Israeli ID numbers to all governments and parties who provide funding, and Israel. This is how Israel knew who they were and where they worked. Everything is open and transparent.

[Morch]

Just now, Brickleberry said:

 

If they are dismantled and replaced, would a new organization not have the same issues? I imagine it is impossible to completely avoid hiring a few Hamas supporters/militants etc. 0009% is quite a good number in my opinion, and unless further information is forthcoming, we should assume the rest are OK.

 

If further evidence comes out that says a large proportion of UNRWA workers are Hamas members, then of course they should be disbanded, but this is highly unlikely.

 

The UNRWA publishes a list of names with Israeli ID numbers to all governments and parties who provide funding, and Israel. This is how Israel knew who they were and where they worked. Everything is open and transparent.

 

@Brickleberry

 

So you're just going to gloss over your obvious lie? How unsurprising.

 

There are two issues involved. One is whether the environment includes Hamas as the ruling power (which may change post-war), the other being the organization's 'culture'. If it's already well ingrained that Hamas need to be accommodated, there's less motivation for change. If the accepted sentiment in the organization is that 'it's like that', there's less motivation for change. UNRWA been in place too long, I don't think it can change. Got to start somewhere. Not expecting things to be prefect, just better.

 

Why is it 'unlikely' that there would be more evidence of UNRWA workers which are Hamas members, or that were aiding Hamas? You provide no reason, and it doesn't make much sense.

 

Everything is not open and transparent. This is you saying so. Israel does not run to UNRWA about each employee that is suspect - because that would expose intelligence sources, plus UNRWA got a track record of not doing a whole lot about things anyway unless faced with threats (like de-funding). It's the same things with other stuff, like the fuel issue back in the beginning of the war - UNRWA can say this and that, but the fact was that a whole lot of fuel ended up in Hamas hands, and the same goes for other supplies.

 

 

 

 

[Brickleberry]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

Why is it 'unlikely' that there would be more evidence of UNRWA workers which are Hamas members, or that were aiding Hamas? You provide no reason, and it doesn't make much sense.

 

There isn't any evidence to suggest otherwise, so yes, it makes complete sense.

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So you're just going to gloss over your obvious lie? How unsurprising.

Do I really have to screenshot your words again to show your lies, like I did on the other thread you badgered me on? Nah, I can't be bothered. This will be my last response to you. On the ignore list you go.

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

Everything is not open and transparent. This is you saying so

 

Yes, it clearly is open and transparent. Evidence below:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68119268

Quote

"It would be immensely irresponsible to sanction an agency and an entire community it serves because of allegations of criminal acts against some individuals, especially at a time of war, displacement and political crises in the region. 

"UNRWA shares the list of all its staff with host countries every year, including Israel. The agency never received any concerns on specific staff members."

Mr Lazzarini added that an investigation by the UN Office of Internal Oversight Services into "the heinous allegations will establish the facts".

 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

Waste of time. I send you proof, and you ignore it. I'm not going to copy and paste and entire article for you.

 

You just made the ignore list :) Have fun.

 

  OK, you claimed that the Israeli Government regularly lies

I asked you to give some examples and you gave an example of where  foreign journalist  got one  word mixed and also a link that I couldn't open , I then asked you whether you could write the claims down yourself and then you blocked me .

   Seems like you made a false claim and when I called you out on it you blocked me .

Hamas and Hamas supports are all quite similar 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

There isn't any evidence to suggest otherwise, so yes, it makes complete sense.

Do I really have to screenshot your words again to show your lies, like I did on the other thread you badgered me on? Nah, I can't be bothered. This will be my last response to you. On the ignore list you go.

 

Yes, it clearly is open and transparent. Evidence below:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68119268

 

 

@Brickleberry

 

How do you mean there is no evidence? There were such investigations in the past, there were reports other reports of this (mentioned earlier in the topic about such things) and investigations will continue for sure. If you believe that only 12 are involved, I'll ask you to stop posting about figures, polls, statistics and so on. There are other unanswered questions - about the fuel, about supplies. It doesn't end here, it doesn't end with these dirty dozen.

 

You can do whatever you like, you twisted my words, I'm sure you could do it again. You've demonstrated this on previous posts.

 

As for the 'ignore' thing, pffft....another coward joins the club.

 

If the head on UNRWA (read up about the guy) says so, it must be true. Where's Mandy Rice-Davies when you need her.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

There isn't any evidence to suggest otherwise, so yes, it makes complete sense.

Do I really have to screenshot your words again to show your lies, like I did on the other thread you badgered me on? Nah, I can't be bothered. This will be my last response to you. On the ignore list you go.

 

Yes, it clearly is open and transparent. Evidence below:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68119268

 

 

I'm shocked....

 

Quote

On the ignore list you go

 

 

Somewhere down in the comments, I recall someone saying:

 

Why I like her:

1. Catchy tunes.

2. Legs.

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

If they are dismantled and replaced, would a new organization not have the same issues? I imagine it is impossible to completely avoid hiring a few Hamas supporters/militants etc. 0009% is quite a good number in my opinion, and unless further information is forthcoming, we should assume the rest are OK.

 

If further evidence comes out that says a large proportion of UNRWA workers are Hamas members, then of course they should be disbanded, but this is highly unlikely.

 

The UNRWA publishes a list of names with Israeli ID numbers to all governments and parties who provide funding, and Israel. This is how Israel knew who they were and where they worked. Everything is open and transparent.

If further evidence comes out that says a large proportion of UNRWA workers are Hamas members, then of course they should be disbanded, but this is highly unlikely.

 

Maybe maybe not, we do know there's still lots to uncover.

 

“A case was compiled by the Intelligence Directorate, incriminating several UNRWA employees for their alleged involvement in the massacre, along with evidence pointing to the use of UNRWA facilities for terrorist purposes,” the IDF statement said.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/27/middleeast/unrwa-israel-hamas-october-7-allegations-intl/index.html

 

Of course there's that telegram group of 3000 UNRWA teachers, so a check of all those messages and who from will be investigated, over 100,000 messages all logged.

[placeholder]

12 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

Yes, Israel gave them the money in order to prevent the formation of unified political representation. It backfired massively.

Not exactly. To be accurate, Israel gave Qatar permission to distribute money in Gaza that would help reduce the locals' dissatisfaction with Hamas. It also had its own people provide protection to Qatar's bag man in distributing the cash. The monthly sum was $30,000,000.

https://archive.ph/qUJwK

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html#:~:text=For years%2C Israeli intelligence officers,keep a power plant running.

[placeholder]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@ozimoron

 

That would be you, either through haste or intentionally posting an untruth. Israel did not 'give them money'. It was Qatar.

 

And that would be you being misleading by not noting that Israel gave Qatar permission to distribute the money and actually sent agents to accompany and provide protection to Mohammed Al-Emadi, the Qatari bagman. It was they who would drive him across the border. It's also instructive to note that when some Republicans wanted to go after Qatar for supporting Hamas, the Israeli govt. intervened on Qatar's behalf.

[Brickleberry]

5 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

With regard to UNRWA staff providing support for Hamas, I would assume it would be extremely challenging for UNRWA management to identify and fire them given Hamas is the ruling party at the point of a gun. I would assume UNRWA management would be in fear of death to do so, plus making changes counter to Hamas interests. How many Gazans a year are murdered by Hamas - easy to critique in a safe zone...However, I repeat IMO it is out of order to withdraw funding for UNWRA at the moment when there is apparently no other functioning humanitarian organisation with sufficient staff in Gaza.

 

The only reason we are talking about this, is to avoid talking about Israel & the ICJ hearing they lost. This is revenge for losing the ICJ case, pure and simple. Easy way to get Israel out of the headlines, and put the pressure on UNRWA. Gives them a nice easy way to say they are all terrorists, and can bomb all their facilities and kill even more UN staff. Over 100 have died already, more than in any other conflict on this planet. Propaganda 101.

 

This is the largest employer in Gaza. 12 employees have been accused. Twelve! Out of 13,000 that work in Gaza - 0.009%. That's like shutting down the NHS because 12 doctors were caught sexually abusing their patients. To make matters worse, this is the only agency that gives aid to the people, right when they need it the most. Over 80% of the worlds hungriest people are in Gaza. They need aid, medical supplies, water, food, medicine, shelter... because Israel has destroyed everything they have!

 

The double standards here are incredible. UNRWA has their funding completely cut off from 9 countries because of 0.009% of workers who have not been proven to be involved, only accused. 

 

Israel is accused of war crimes, apartheid, genocide and has broken international law over decades. They have literally lost a case in the ICJ and were found to be plausibly committing genocidal acts. They have videos from CNN & iTV where we can literally watch their war crimes, shooting unarmed men holding white flags. The entire legal world, and all countries agree that they are occupying territory in the west bank, and this breaks international law. Israel ignores it. No funding is cut, weapons and hundreds of millions are being sent to them. Is it not easy to see why people look at this situation and get so angry with their respective governments and bias? The western world lets Israel get away with literal murder and theft, no accountability at all. In fact, they are given more and more to keep on going. Enough is enough.

[ravip]

13 hours ago, Pouatchee said:

in a nutshell... god damn the human race sucks. when will all this shi1te caused by religion and politics end?

is there any other species that commits genocide on each other because of some guy in the sky, or some arse who got elected by the people?

 

I wish i had never been born

I agree with you 100%.

This is the hard fact that we cannot accept, or deliberately choose to ignore.