Why are we suddenly allowed to publicly criticize Jews?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Parsve said:

I find it strange that Israeli governments always say, "we must never forget the holocaust". Talk about asking for original sin. At the same time, they demand that we overlook the horrors they themselves do to Arabs. Talk about cynical egoists.

 

Oh, look - the old 'same same' meme.

It's not.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

Try every one of them. You're not special, petal.

 

@ozimoron

 

No?

Many groups constantly targeted for two millennia?

Many groups being singled out in the teaching of two of the World's leading religions?

Do tell.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Because Jerusalem is Israel's Capital city and Embassies are usually in Capital cities and the USA supports democracies and also USA aid to Israel supports the USA economy because ALL that aid goes straight back to the USA

 

It was not USA policy up to that point. It was not considered a bright move at the time, and that's still the case.

Jerusalem's status is not widely recognized internationally, nor are Israel's relevant territorial claims.

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, retarius said:

I'm not too sure about this Khun LA....how long is it since you live in the states? I came here in 2005 first and bought a black T-shirt with a picture of GWB and Adolf Hitler together in the front of it. I wore it on the flight back home to Newark. The immigration guy asked me about the T-short and I said I objected to the Iraq War, the slaughter of innocent lives and the lies told to us before the war. He told me to come into a room where I was interviewed by some agents from ? (they wouldn't say). They made me take off the offending T-shirt, searched all bags etc and  then stole the T-shirt. I raged and argued about free speech and they told me that in the real world, what they said went. I left before I got beaten up. It was a heated debate, but I must say, no physical violence. So kudos to the agents on that. 

I only got here a few years before you, 2000.  You don't have tell me about censorship, as the only time I got audited by the IRS, is when I sent emails to WH, objected to their policies, Bush 2 & Obama.

 

I even got audited for years I didn't have to file taxes   Amazing how the audits stopped when the administration changed.

 

Free Speech ain't free ... consequences to be paid if out spoken.  Very effective censorship, worldwide.   As they control most media in the west.

Edited February 6 by KhunLA

[retarius]

54 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems you read my post. But you only concentrate on the last line.

 

Did you ever think or write that "group x" does this or that?

All of group x? All the time?

If we want to be accurate then we should look at each individual anywhere in the world as an individual. Not all Christians think the same, not all Jews do the same, etc.

But I guess we can agree that if you take a million Muslims, they do in average different things than a million Christians or a million Jews.

So, in this case, who kills so many Palestinians? What is the short answer for that?

 

P.S. My neighbor is Israeli, and probably a Jew. I like him and I don't blame him for what is going on in Gaza. 

 

 

When in the US I lived and worked among Jews (Reform not Orthodox). I can honestly say there were no problems and it was totally OK. Our town was about 30% or more Jewish, filled with emigres from Brooklyn. The reception we got was very welcoming from out Jewish neighbours on both sides. At work the CEO and the power structure was also mainly Jewish. I never felt any problem with this not was my progress inhibited. I will note that there were almost no blacks at work despite 'quota' rules for major corporations. I had a very favourable impression of the Jewish community and by extension, Israel, at that time. The impression of Israel, but not my community, changed when I went to Israel in 1989. It was not a place I ever wanted to go back to, largely because of learning about the Palestinian issue.

 

[steven100]

I don't know much about Jews,   so I don't have any comment either good or bad.  

[Morch]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The Taliban in Iraq? Try again.

Yes, civilians get killed in wars, in the past lots of civilian were killed in wars.

In more recent wars often the military tries to avoid killing civilian - it doesn't look good. There are civilian dead, but not too many.

And then there is this war, where it seems Israel wants to kill many Palestinians and get them all out of the land which Israel wants. 

 

And then there are them facts.

 

Was there fighting on this scale within a similar densely populated urban zone with similar set of circumstances? All them comparisons to other situations are great for making bogus points, I concede that - but they aren't really relevant.

 

If Israel was about what you claim - there would be no warnings, no time to evacuate, and a whole lot more casualties. As usual you go for hyperbole.

[retarius]

8 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Criticizing Jews = not ok.

 

Criticizing the Israeli government and leaders = ok.

 

Criticizing any organised religion = ok.

I'm not sure what to make of your post. Jews are a subset of organised religion ie they are one or more of the organised religions. Are you sure we are not allowed to criticise the Jewish religion? And criticising individual Jews is ok....say can we criticise vile, inhuman beings/Jews like Netanyahu? How about criticising land stealing Zionists? as a subset of Jews.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems you read my post. But you only concentrate on the last line.

 

Did you ever think or write that "group x" does this or that?

All of group x? All the time?

If we want to be accurate then we should look at each individual anywhere in the world as an individual. Not all Christians think the same, not all Jews do the same, etc.

But I guess we can agree that if you take a million Muslims, they do in average different things than a million Christians or a million Jews.

So, in this case, who kills so many Palestinians? What is the short answer for that?

 

P.S. My neighbor is Israeli, and probably a Jew. I like him and I don't blame him for what is going on in Gaza. 

 

 

 

I read your post. I think I got it right.

You do this sometimes - give an almost reasonable opinion, the the ending sort of spoils it.

 

You're taking my comment to extremes. Which is understandable given your own argument is weak.

The level of differentiation required in order not to be considered a bigot is not taxing, nor very complicated.

 

You can guess 'we can agree' - but we don't. I'm not party to your simplistic, loaded way of framing things.

 

Couldn't care less who's your neighbor. I don't discuss politics with mine.

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, retarius said:

I'm not sure what to make of your post. Jews are a subset of organised religion ie they are one or more of the organised religions. Are you sure we are not allowed to criticise the Jewish religion? And criticising individual Jews is ok....say can we criticise vile, inhuman beings/Jews like Netanyahu? How about criticising land stealing Zionists? as a subset of Jews.

 

   Americans need to keep quiet about stealing land .

Did the American Indians  gift their land to you as a present ?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, newbee2022 said:

1967 Israel occupied East Jerusalem. Illegally. As West Bank and other areas. Originally Israel is the aggressor since 1946.

 

Get your facts straight.

 

In 1946 there was no Israel.

In 1948 Arab countries declared war on Israel, not the other way around.

In 1973, Israel was attacked by two of it's neighbor countries.

In 2023, Israel was attacked by Hamas.

 

See earlier comment on this topic regarding posters airing their opinions without the benefit of knowing facts, or what they're talking about.

I think there's a connection to the topic's subject matter.

[retarius]

1 hour ago, JimHuaHin said:

An interesting question - but is it really an "accurate" question?

 

I have some Jewish friends in northern America who have been criticizing the current Israeli leadership for many years.  Since the onset of the Israeli genocide/ethnocide in Gaza most of these friends have condemned Israel's actions.

 

The same situation exists in Israel - many many Jews (if not the majority) do not support their current government's actions, and there have been many public protests against the invasion of Gaza, especially by Orthodox Jews; these protests have been brutally put down by Israeli police and military, by order of Netanyahu.

I might be wrong here, but I had imagined that the Orthodox Jews were the zionists. When I lived in the US I had many, many Jewish friends and acquaintances, almost all were Reform whom, I understood for them, were much more liberal in outlook than Orthodox. Is this not true? 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, I saw the news that Israel tells Palestinians to go away from A to B because Israel will bomb A. And then, a few days or weeks later, they tell Palestinians to go away from B to C because they will bomb B. Do you see a pattern? Go away, go away, GO AWAY!

We don't care where you go or if you live. We just want you out of here.

And Israel prohibits lots of food, medicine and other essentials to reach the people who need it. If they die, who cares? 

 

They are told to evacuate to another area within the Gaza Strip. Not out of it. Not quite in line with your argument.

[Nick Carter icp]

13 minutes ago, retarius said:

When in the US I lived and worked among Jews (Reform not Orthodox). I can honestly say there were no problems and it was totally OK. Our town was about 30% or more Jewish, filled with emigres from Brooklyn. The reception we got was very welcoming from out Jewish neighbours on both sides. At work the CEO and the power structure was also mainly Jewish. I never felt any problem with this not was my progress inhibited. I will note that there were almost no blacks at work despite 'quota' rules for major corporations. I had a very favourable impression of the Jewish community and by extension, Israel, at that time. The impression of Israel, but not my community, changed when I went to Israel in 1989. It was not a place I ever wanted to go back to, largely because of learning about the Palestinian issue.

 

 

   I never wanted to go to the USA because of the American Indian issue , you stole their land and killed them all .

   Land theft and genocide 

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Americans need to keep quiet about stealing land .

Did the American Indians  gift their land to you as a present ?

 

9 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Why is it that when Jews are mentioned, the subject often gets turned to the Holocaust ?

Why do Americans' keep going on about the USA all the time ?

   

hmm ... you want to be the kettle or the pot 

 

Hypocrisy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.

[Bangkok Barry]

31 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The 27,000 figure includes Hamas men. It's not just civilians. Lumping them all together is a Hamas propaganda talking point.

 

Murder implies intent. If Israel was bent on killing Palestinian civilians, if this was what it was about - there would have been no warnings issues, not time to evacuate offered, and there would have been a whole lot more casualties on the list.

 

And again - Jews. Israel. Israeli government. Not the same.

 

How many of the 27,000+ were Hamas? How many were 'untargeted' civilians. How many were killed in the south after Israel demanded they move south to 'safety'. The very fact also that Israel was able to cut off just about everything to citizens of Gaza was exactly what the Hamas attack was about. Israel are occupiers of land that belonged to the Palestinians, and this cartoon illustrates perfectly what the conflict is about.

 

Still, interesting to see you supporting and trying to justify mass murder.

[Morch]

44 minutes ago, retarius said:

Because the Jews are doing absolutely terrible things in Gaza. Things that are absolutely beyond the pale for ordinary, decent, humane people. Let's fave it the Jews have had an easy run, implementing apartheid, land theft, committing daily atrocities against a poor, vulnerable, oppressed people....and it has gone on for getting on for 80 years. And all criticism hushed up in the media in the US and to a lesser extent in the west (and if you want to discuss this, I'm willing to give an extremely graphic example). For Hamas killing 1000 odd people and taking a few hostages, the Jews have killed 27000 innocent civilians. Now I have no objection to Jews killing Hamas, but if to kill a terrorist you drop a 2000lb bomb on a group of innocent and oppressed civilians and kill scores of them, then I really have a problem with the morals of that. And I have a problem with any person that condones that violence, because it says to me that such people have no morals worth talking about. 

 

 

@retarius

 

Coming from an openly antisemite poster, such comments are to be treated accordingly.

 

The Jews? All of them are down in Gaza killing Palestinians? All the Jews support that?

 

Beyond the pale? Like, worse than what Hamas did on 7/10? Worse than things that took place in the Syrian Civil War? Under ISIS? Or yes, during WWII? The one who's beyond the pale is yourself.

 

All the people killed in Gaza are innocent civilians? Seriously? Not a single Hamas men among them? 200+ hostages are 'a few''? Including a baby who had his first birthday in captivity?

 

You're a disgrace.

Edited February 6 by Morch

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, retarius said:

I might be wrong here, but I had imagined that the Orthodox Jews were the zionists. When I lived in the US I had many, many Jewish friends and acquaintances, almost all were Reform whom, I understood for them, were much more liberal in outlook than Orthodox. Is this not true? 

 

   Lets get back to basics 

The Israel situation for beginners 

Orthodox Jews are Anti Zionist

 

 

 

While most ultra-Orthodox Jews oppose Zionism in some way, groups like Neturei Karta and the Satmar Hasidim do not recognize the modern State of Israel.

 

 

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ultra-orthodox-anti-zionist/

 

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, retarius said:

Morch is an irritating commenter....I put him on ignore. He's not worthy debating and a rabid zionism supporter.

 

@retarius

 

The truth is annoying to some. So are facts, when they don't square with false narrative pushed.

As for being put on 'ignore' (or pretended to) by an antisemite? Somewhere between 'who cares' and a 'badge of honor'.

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Get your facts straight.

 

In 1946 there was no Israel.

In 1948 Arab countries declared war on Israel, not the other way around.

In 1973, Israel was attacked by two of it's neighbor countries.

In 2023, Israel was attacked by Hamas.

 

See earlier comment on this topic regarding posters airing their opinions without the benefit of knowing facts, or what they're talking about.

I think there's a connection to the topic's subject matter.

You conveniently left out 1967 ... 'Six Day War'

 

Where Israel was the aggressor, and even tried to sink the USS Liberty when they got caught being so, as against the US policy to supply 'defensive' military aid.

 

And why I will never accept israil as a trusted ally.  Killing those that supported you, just doesn't sit right with me, and why I hate ALL FOREIGN AID.

Edited February 6 by KhunLA

[Morch]

38 minutes ago, Drumbuie said:

I met an Israeli lady last summer, here to see her musician daughter perform. She told me that she is one of hundreds of thousands of Jewish Israelis actively protesting against the actions of their Zionist government.

I was with a Jewish friend who also loathes the actions of Netanyahu's government - we all hugged when we said goodbye. 

 

It's not anti-Semitism - and it never was, any more than protesting against Hitler was anti- Caucasian or anti-Christian.

 

It's not pro-Hamas or pro-terrorism. It's pro- people being able to lead peaceful lives without being shot or bombed in their (hospital) beds. 

 

 

 

Most of the Israelis protesting against Netanyahu's government are Zionists.

Zionists does not automatically or exclusively imply right wing, religious, zealot,  and so on.

 

Posters are free to ignore it, or pretend otherwise, but the distinctions on offer are often not adhered to on many of these protests, or even posts on this forum.

[novacova]

14 hours ago, Stocky said:

It isn't (or at least shouldn't be) "criticize Jews", the criticism is of the Israeli government and its actions in Gaza.  It's worth remembering that not all Jews are Israelis, neither are all Israelis Jews.

It is in case you’ve forgotten. It’s worth remembering that Jews residing in foreign countries outside of Israel that have no affiliation with the Israeli government are being criticized, insulted and attacked just for being Jewish in the last few months, most of which is coming from the misled so-called peace loving leftist who in fact have always been on the wrong side of history, time and time again.

[retarius]

I do have to compliment Andy, Andy, Andy for starting this excellent discussion. 

[Morch]

35 minutes ago, retarius said:

I'm not too sure about this Khun LA....how long is it since you live in the states? I came here in 2005 first and bought a black T-shirt with a picture of GWB and Adolf Hitler together in the front of it. I wore it on the flight back home to Newark. The immigration guy asked me about the T-short and I said I objected to the Iraq War, the slaughter of innocent lives and the lies told to us before the war. He told me to come into a room where I was interviewed by some agents from ? (they wouldn't say). They made me take off the offending T-shirt, searched all bags etc and  then stole the T-shirt. I raged and argued about free speech and they told me that in the real world, what they said went. I left before I got beaten up. It was a heated debate, but I must say, no physical violence. So kudos to the agents on that. 

 

@retarius

 

Cool story, bro.

[Nick Carter icp]

45 minutes ago, retarius said:

Morch is an irritating commenter....I put him on ignore. He's not worthy debating and a rabid zionism supporter.

 

   Your side does have a habit of ignoring other peoples opinion , not only that , but also needing to publicly state it 

[wombat]

the wheel turns ...what was once woke is no longer woke?

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, connda said:

For the same reason people can criticize Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists, Confucianists, Animists, Shintoists, Bahaists, and the 100's of other minor regional native and folk religions found globally.

 

How many of them are singled out, historically, consistently with bigoted opinions?

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, retarius said:

When in the US I lived and worked among Jews (Reform not Orthodox). I can honestly say there were no problems and it was totally OK. Our town was about 30% or more Jewish, filled with emigres from Brooklyn. The reception we got was very welcoming from out Jewish neighbours on both sides. At work the CEO and the power structure was also mainly Jewish. I never felt any problem with this not was my progress inhibited. I will note that there were almost no blacks at work despite 'quota' rules for major corporations. I had a very favourable impression of the Jewish community and by extension, Israel, at that time. The impression of Israel, but not my community, changed when I went to Israel in 1989. It was not a place I ever wanted to go back to, largely because of learning about the Palestinian issue.

 

 

@retarius

 

Did you wear your you aforementioned Hitler T-shirt to work?

 

Another great story....from an poster who not long ago opined that Judaism is a 'murderous religion'.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

38 minutes ago, retarius said:

I'm not too sure about this Khun LA....how long is it since you live in the states? I came here in 2005 first and bought a black T-shirt with a picture of GWB and Adolf Hitler together in the front of it. I wore it on the flight back home to Newark. The immigration guy asked me about the T-short and I said I objected to the Iraq War, the slaughter of innocent lives and the lies told to us before the war. He told me to come into a room where I was interviewed by some agents from ? (they wouldn't say). They made me take off the offending T-shirt, searched all bags etc and  then stole the T-shirt. I raged and argued about free speech and they told me that in the real world, what they said went. I left before I got beaten up. It was a heated debate, but I must say, no physical violence. So kudos to the agents on that. 

 

   So ,  just to clarify , you are an anti Zionist /Anti Jew and you wear a T-Shirt with Adolf Hitler on it ?

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, retarius said:

I'm not sure what to make of your post. Jews are a subset of organised religion ie they are one or more of the organised religions. Are you sure we are not allowed to criticise the Jewish religion? And criticising individual Jews is ok....say can we criticise vile, inhuman beings/Jews like Netanyahu? How about criticising land stealing Zionists? as a subset of Jews.

 

@retarius

 

It can get quite confusing for people with closed minds. Here are two more complications:

 

Netanyahu is not religious, and certainly not observant.

There are non-Jews who define themselves as Zionists.