Jailed Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny dead, prison service says

[rattlesnake]

32 minutes ago, heybruce said:

At the time your source was published the eastern regions of Ukraine, with substantial support and encouragement from Russia, and been at war with the central government of Ukraine for months.

 

"In March 2014, following Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity, anti-revolution and pro-Russian protests began in Ukraine's Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, collectively 'the Donbas'. These began as Russia invaded and annexed Crimea. Armed Russian-backed separatists seized Ukrainian government buildings and declared the Donetsk and Luhansk republics (DPR and LPR) as independent states, leading to conflict with Ukrainian government forces.^[27] Russia covertly supported the separatists with troops and weaponry. It only admitted sending "military specialists",^[28][29] but later acknowledged the separatists as Russian combat veterans.^"   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

 

There probably were atrocities committed; after all the Ukraine government at that time was very much a product of Russian dominance.  However the atrocities were trivial compared to how Russia deals with rebellious regions. 

 

"The First Chechen War began in 1994, when Russian forces entered Chechnya on the premise of restoring constitutional order. Following nearly two years of brutal fighting, with a death toll exceeding 100,000 by some estimates, the 1996 Khasavyurt ceasefire agreement was signed and Russian troops were withdrawn from the republic.^[42]"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

 

Ukraine isn't perfect, but it is much better than Russia.

 

Firstly, the post-Yanukovych Ukrainian government is entirely under US control and effectively constitutes a Western stronghold in the country. A couple of sources to illustrate this:

 

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault

The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin

John J. Mearsheimer

https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

 

How the CIA Supports Ukraine – and Vice Versa

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/28664

 

 

Secondly, the Donbass has been consistently the theatre of persecutions and killings by the Western-backed Ukrainian government since 2014, as Anila Lipp reports (also check out Anne-Laure Bonnel):

 

German journalist Alina Lipp personally witnesses civilians dying in Donbass each day: We are under fire here every day, and the shelling is not at all for military purposes. Most of the men are at the front now. There are also women, children, elderly people here.

 

 

For some fundamental information on why the Western establishment wants to subvert Russia at any cost, again, I recommend reading The Grand Chessboard, which was written by Zbigniew Brzezinski, one of the chief architects of the US' modern foreign policy doctrine, member of the Trilateral Commission and the brains behind the first Afghan war, which was effectively a proxy war against Russia in the 80s.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Firstly, the post-Yanukovych Ukrainian government is entirely under US control and effectively constitutes a Western stronghold in the country. A couple of sources to illustrate this:

 

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault

The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin

John J. Mearsheimer

https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

 

How the CIA Supports Ukraine – and Vice Versa

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/28664

 

 

Secondly, the Donbass has been consistently the theatre of persecutions and killings by the Western-backed Ukrainian government since 2014, as Anila Lipp reports (also check out Anne-Laure Bonnel):

 

German journalist Alina Lipp personally witnesses civilians dying in Donbass each day: We are under fire here every day, and the shelling is not at all for military purposes. Most of the men are at the front now. There are also women, children, elderly people here.

 

 

For some fundamental information on why the Western establishment wants to subvert Russia at any cost, again, I recommend reading The Grand Chessboard, which was written by Zbigniew Brzezinski, one of the chief architects of the US' modern foreign policy doctrine, member of the Trilateral Commission and the brains behind the first Afghan war, which was effectively a proxy war against Russia in the 80s.

The views of one political scientist are interesting but in no way definitive.  In scanning the beginning of your link I got the impression that Mearshmeimer favors the kind of global politics practiced by the Nixon/Kissinger duo, which was that great powers have a right to treat smaller countries as pieces on a chessboard.  That was hardly an unqualified success.

 

I didn't bother reading your second link, I saw that it was based on a NYTimes article I had already read.  Did you?  It does not in any way claim or imply that the US government has dominated Ukraine.

 

Funny you didn't address the contrast between Russia's brutal and bloody suppression of a rebellious region, Chechnya, and Ukraines comparatively highly restrained approach in its rebel areas.

[rattlesnake]

12 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The views of one political scientist are interesting but in no way definitive.  In scanning the beginning of your link I got the impression that Mearshmeimer favors the kind of global politics practiced by the Nixon/Kissinger duo, which was that great powers have a right to treat smaller countries as pieces on a chessboard.  That was hardly an unqualified success.

 

I didn't bother reading your second link, I saw that it was based on a NYTimes article I had already read.  Did you?  It does not in any way claim or imply that the US government has dominated Ukraine.

 

Funny you didn't address the contrast between Russia's brutal and bloody suppression of a rebellious region, Chechnya, and Ukraines comparatively highly restrained approach in its rebel areas.

 

Not really, Mearshmeimer is rather opposed to the Kissinger doctrine and the establishment, he is also the co-author of The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy which I mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

Yes, the New York Times was the original outlet to publish this, and it is significant as it confirms that the CIA built secret bases in Ukraine and has effectively waged a shadow war against Russia for the past decade. This is, of course, nothing new to those who have studied the issue seriously (Gladio networks).

 

The comparison with Chechnya is invalid, because the Donbass civilian population has been persecuted since 2014, as mentioned earlier, we are not talking about rebels being strategically quelled.

 

[heybruce]

23 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Not really, Mearshmeimer is rather opposed to the Kissinger doctrine and the establishment, he is also the co-author of The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy which I mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

Yes, the New York Times was the original outlet to publish this, and it is significant as it confirms that the CIA built secret bases in Ukraine and has effectively waged a shadow war against Russia for the past decade. This is, of course, nothing new to those who have studied the issue seriously (Gladio networks).

 

The comparison with Chechnya is invalid, because the Donbass civilian population has been persecuted since 2014, as mentioned earlier, we are not talking about rebels being strategically quelled.

 

Mearshmeimer clearly thought that Ukraine was a chess piece in the game, and one that should be sacrificed to Russia.  Obviously Ukraine disagrees.

 

What repression took place before secessionists, with Russian assistance, took over parts of Donbas?

 

Re-read the NYT article.  There was no shadow war against Russia.  Identify the part of the article that states there was.  There was Ukraine eagerly sharing intelligence with the US in preparation for the ever-present of Russian interference (such as Russia's support for the Donbas separatists) and invasion.  The intelligence sharing proved to be useful.

[transam]

Interesting interview.........

 

 

[transam]

20 hours ago, frank83628 said:

Demonising Putin is not an opinion, its brainwashing

Pot/kettle...........

[frank83628]

2 hours ago, transam said:

Interesting interview.........

 

 

hahahahahahah..killing spree. jeez man, you have been on the 'whacky baccy'

 

Edited March 4 by frank83628

[transam]

29 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

hahahahahahah..killing spree. jeez man, you have been on the 'whacky baccy'

 

I have come to the conclusion you are "Trolling", you are too obvious, try a different tack next time...😉....🤭

[frank83628]

36 minutes ago, transam said:

I have come to the conclusion you are "Trolling", you are too obvious, try a different tack next time...😉....🤭

no, i'm not trolling, i have a different opinion to you, however when i hear total  ridiculous nonsense like 'Putin will go on a killing spree and nobody is safe' as per that interview, i just reply accordingly!!

you're the one who said 'waccy baccky' i the last few threads i've followed, whether to me i cannot remember, i just remember it gave me a good impression of you. perhaps you were being sarcastic, but i don't think so..... but no, not trolling.
 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

no, i'm not trolling, i have a different opinion to you, however when i hear total  ridiculous nonsense like 'Putin will go on a killing spree and nobody is safe' as per that interview, i just reply accordingly!!

you're the one who said 'waccy baccky' i the last few threads i've followed, whether to me i cannot remember, i just remember it gave me a good impression of you. perhaps you were being sarcastic, but i don't think so..... but no, not trolling.
 

I stand by my thoughts, you can stand by your continuous whacky baccy thing..........

[rattlesnake]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:24 PM, heybruce said:

Mearshmeimer clearly thought that Ukraine was a chess piece in the game, and one that should be sacrificed to Russia.  Obviously Ukraine disagrees.

 

What repression took place before secessionists, with Russian assistance, took over parts of Donbas?

 

Re-read the NYT article.  There was no shadow war against Russia.  Identify the part of the article that states there was.  There was Ukraine eagerly sharing intelligence with the US in preparation for the ever-present of Russian interference (such as Russia's support for the Donbas separatists) and invasion.  The intelligence sharing proved to be useful.

 

Apologies for the delayed response.

 

Mearshmeimer simply highlights the obvious interference of the US establishment in Ukraine, as he did previously regarding the Middle-East, but he does not support it, in fact he is very critical of it. What is interesting with Mearshmeimer is that his credentials are so solid that he can't be dismissed as a "conspiracy theorist", not in the age of the Internet anyway when information can actually be verified (unlike Anthony Sutton or Carroll Quigley who were ostracised to various degrees for similar endeavours several decades earlier).

 

What repression took place before secessionists, with Russian assistance, took over parts of Donbas?

The repression of the civilian population of Donbas (they were already living there and did not take over anything) began when the US removed Yanukovych and installed Porochenko in 2014.

 

The confirmed implementation of secret spy bases by the NYT only confirms, again, that the US establishment was using the Ukraine crisis to further its long-standing project to weaken Russia (again, c.f. Brzeziński's The Grand Chessboard).
The US establishment couldn't care less about protecting European interests and was, as always, only furthering its own, as Victoria Nuland confirmed in her leaked conversation from 2014:

 

'F**k the EU,' US envoy says in leaked recording

“So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing, and have the UN help glue it, and you know ... F**k the EU,” she said in the recording.
[...]
Nuland is also heard weighing in on the make-up of the next Ukrainian government.
She is heard telling Ambassador Pyatt that she doesn’t think Vitaly Klitschko, the boxer-turned-politician who is a main opposition leader, should have a role in a new government.

 

https://www.france24.com/en/20140207-ukraine-usa-eu-nuland-leaked-audio

 

[heybruce]

15 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Apologies for the delayed response.

 

Mearshmeimer simply highlights the obvious interference of the US establishment in Ukraine, as he did previously regarding the Middle-East, but he does not support it, in fact he is very critical of it. What is interesting with Mearshmeimer is that his credentials are so solid that he can't be dismissed as a "conspiracy theorist", not in the age of the Internet anyway when information can actually be verified (unlike Anthony Sutton or Carroll Quigley who were ostracised to various degrees for similar endeavours several decades earlier).

 

What repression took place before secessionists, with Russian assistance, took over parts of Donbas?

The repression of the civilian population of Donbas (they were already living there and did not take over anything) began when the US removed Yanukovych and installed Porochenko in 2014.

 

The confirmed implementation of secret spy bases by the NYT only confirms, again, that the US establishment was using the Ukraine crisis to further its long-standing project to weaken Russia (again, c.f. Brzeziński's The Grand Chessboard).
The US establishment couldn't care less about protecting European interests and was, as always, only furthering its own, as Victoria Nuland confirmed in her leaked conversation from 2014:

 

'F**k the EU,' US envoy says in leaked recording

“So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing, and have the UN help glue it, and you know ... F**k the EU,” she said in the recording.
[...]
Nuland is also heard weighing in on the make-up of the next Ukrainian government.
She is heard telling Ambassador Pyatt that she doesn’t think Vitaly Klitschko, the boxer-turned-politician who is a main opposition leader, should have a role in a new government.

 

https://www.france24.com/en/20140207-ukraine-usa-eu-nuland-leaked-audio

 

Nuland was expressing personal opinion, not US policy.

 

The US spies on Russia and Russia spies on the US.  You only show which side you support by claiming one side is doing it for defensive purposes and the other for offensive purposes.

 

You didn't state what repression was taking place before the secessionist took up arms with Russian assistance, you only stated it as if it were a proven fact.  Prove it.

[rattlesnake]

15 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Nuland was expressing personal opinion, not US policy.

 

The US spies on Russia and Russia spies on the US.  You only show which side you support by claiming one side is doing it for defensive purposes and the other for offensive purposes.

 

You didn't state what repression was taking place before the secessionist took up arms with Russian assistance, you only stated it as if it were a proven fact.  Prove it.

 

The opinion of a senior US diplomat who also goes on to say who she wants or doesn't want to see as the next president of Ukraine… and also presciently claimed in January 2022 that "Nord Stream 2 will not move forward if Russia invades Ukraine".

The repression took place after the Donbas population (not an isolated group of secessionists as you imply) rejected the US-backed ousting of Yanukovych and installation of Porochenko.

 

The repression of the Ukrainian government since then has targeted the whole civilian population of Donbass, which is culturally Russian:

 

Copying the Maidan protest and earlier actions in the western regions that had been directed against Yanukovych’s government, groups of local Donbass citizens already in February began to occupy government buildings, calling for a referendum on the region’s autonomy and possibly its secession and annexation to Russia. These groups were initially unarmed, nor were they for the most part separatist.

[...]

But it is clear that the insurgents were, and still are, in their majority local people and that, at least until relatively recently, they enjoyed varying degrees of sympathy among the population, most of whom, however, did not want to separate but only a measure of self-rule.

 

The article goes on to describe the repression of these civilians by Kiev, as I have already explained earlier in this thread.

 

Also, for added context, regarding the "annexation of Crimea" and the issue of sovereignty and US interference:

 

Crimea Overwhelmingly Supports Split From Ukraine To Join Russia

The referendum had widely been expected to pass; Crimea's parliament has already voted to seek annexation by Russia. Government officials in Ukraine, the U.S. and elsewhere say they consider the referendum illegitimate, and the White House released a statement rejecting it.

In a call to Russian President Vladimir Putin, President Obama said that the secession vote "would never be recognized" by the United States.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/16/290525623/crimeans-vote-on-splitting-from-ukraine-to-join-russia

 

[heybruce]

56 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

The opinion of a senior US diplomat who also goes on to say who she wants or doesn't want to see as the next president of Ukraine… and also presciently claimed in January 2022 that "Nord Stream 2 will not move forward if Russia invades Ukraine".

The repression took place after the Donbas population (not an isolated group of secessionists as you imply) rejected the US-backed ousting of Yanukovych and installation of Porochenko.

 

The repression of the Ukrainian government since then has targeted the whole civilian population of Donbass, which is culturally Russian:

 

Copying the Maidan protest and earlier actions in the western regions that had been directed against Yanukovych’s government, groups of local Donbass citizens already in February began to occupy government buildings, calling for a referendum on the region’s autonomy and possibly its secession and annexation to Russia. These groups were initially unarmed, nor were they for the most part separatist.

[...]

But it is clear that the insurgents were, and still are, in their majority local people and that, at least until relatively recently, they enjoyed varying degrees of sympathy among the population, most of whom, however, did not want to separate but only a measure of self-rule.

 

The article goes on to describe the repression of these civilians by Kiev, as I have already explained earlier in this thread.

 

Also, for added context, regarding the "annexation of Crimea" and the issue of sovereignty and US interference:

 

Crimea Overwhelmingly Supports Split From Ukraine To Join Russia

The referendum had widely been expected to pass; Crimea's parliament has already voted to seek annexation by Russia. Government officials in Ukraine, the U.S. and elsewhere say they consider the referendum illegitimate, and the White House released a statement rejecting it.

In a call to Russian President Vladimir Putin, President Obama said that the secession vote "would never be recognized" by the United States.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/16/290525623/crimeans-vote-on-splitting-from-ukraine-to-join-russia

 

The private views of a senior diplomat who is not in a position to make policy and was expressing opinions with colleagues during what she assumed was a private conversation.

 

Not quite the same as Russia's former President and current deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council stating officially that Ukraine and other parts of Europe are past of Russia, is it?

 

"Dmitry Medvedev, deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council and an ally of President Vladimir Putin, described Ukraine on Monday as part of Russia and said what he called historical parts of Russia needed to "come home."

 

"In a bellicose presentation that suggested Russia's military goals in Ukraine are far-reaching, Medvedev, who was Russia's president from 2008-2012, praised the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union and said Moscow would prosecute its "special military operation" until the Ukrainian leadership capitulated."  https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-ally-says-ukraine-is-definitely-russia-rules-out-talks-with-zelenskiy-2024-03-04/

 

You still haven't given evidence of Ukrainian government repression in the east of the country before the separatists, backed by Russia, actively sought secession.  You also didn't provide a link to your source, but it's significant that the quote ended with "they enjoyed varying degrees of sympathy among the population, most of whom, however, did not want to separate but only a measure of self-rule."

 

Do I really have to explain that a referendum in an occupied territory conducted by the occupiers without outside supervision lacks credibility?

[rattlesnake]

48 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The private views of a senior diplomat who is not in a position to make policy and was expressing opinions with colleagues during what she assumed was a private conversation.

 

Not quite the same as Russia's former President and current deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council stating officially that Ukraine and other parts of Europe are past of Russia, is it?

 

"Dmitry Medvedev, deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council and an ally of President Vladimir Putin, described Ukraine on Monday as part of Russia and said what he called historical parts of Russia needed to "come home."

 

"In a bellicose presentation that suggested Russia's military goals in Ukraine are far-reaching, Medvedev, who was Russia's president from 2008-2012, praised the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union and said Moscow would prosecute its "special military operation" until the Ukrainian leadership capitulated."  https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-ally-says-ukraine-is-definitely-russia-rules-out-talks-with-zelenskiy-2024-03-04/

 

You still haven't given evidence of Ukrainian government repression in the east of the country before the separatists, backed by Russia, actively sought secession.  You also didn't provide a link to your source, but it's significant that the quote ended with "they enjoyed varying degrees of sympathy among the population, most of whom, however, did not want to separate but only a measure of self-rule."

 

Do I really have to explain that a referendum in an occupied territory conducted by the occupiers without outside supervision lacks credibility?

 

I rest my case.

 

I have provided ample information on the matter, which those who read this thread can go into to broaden their view and knowledge if they wish to.

 

I acknowledge your unwavering willingness to believe/claim that Putin and the Ukrainian situation are as portrayed by the Western establishment.

[beautifulthailand99]

A lot of Ukrainian patriot's hatred Navalny and celebrated when he died on social media, often with a picture of a sandwich. Mostly because in the past he asserted that Crimea was part of Russia and was a Russian nationalist, albeit an anti-Putin one. Indeed, Zelenskiy's wife turned down an invitation to the White House when it would mean sitting near his widow. Plus actor/comedian Zelesnkiy was turned down to appear at the Oscar's when Navalny's family got seats and an Oscar so it maybe a bit of a hissy fit from the Great One.

 

https://kyivindependent.com/kate-tsurkan-the-problem-with-lionizing-navalny-and-snubbing-zelensky-at-oscars/

 

After all, this is the Navalny who, in 2012, called Ukrainians and Russians “the same people” and said that there is “no more kindred country for Russia than Ukraine.” Such a view is strikingly similar to the one of Putin, who has made false claims that modern Ukrainian statehood was created by the Bolsheviks, “tearing from (Russia) pieces of its own historical territory.”

In 2014, Navalny sparked outrage after failing to unequivocally condemn the illegal Russian annexation of Crimea by famously saying that the peninsula is "de-facto Russian" and asking, "Is Crimea a sandwich or something you can take and give back? I don't think so."

 

Oh and Budanov, unhelpfully for the western narrative,  said he died of a blood clot not poisoning.

 

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/28630

 

“I may disappoint you, but as far as we know, he indeed died as a result of a blood clot. And this has been more or less confirmed,” Budanov told journalists on the sidelines at the “Ukraine. Year of 2024” forum on Sunday.

"This wasn't sourced from the internet, but, unfortunately, natural [causes],” he added.

Edited March 10 by beautifulthailand99

[beautifulthailand99]

On 2/18/2024 at 1:10 AM, rabas said:

 

It's Russians claiming Navalny is a hero. Did you see the mass rally in Georgia? Mostly Russians.

 

The only link between Navalny and Assange is that Assange was functionally a Putin stooge. Had Assange released information only related to wrongdoing, not mass information damaging legitimate US interests, I might consider him a hero too. 

 

I doubt Navalny and Assange would like each other. OTH, Navalny was friends with Garry Kasparov, a truly brilliant Russian who also works tirelessly to expose Putin and save his country. Kasparov is in exile in part because he too tried to run for office. Putin would probably kill him if he could. 

 

Here is Kasperov on why Putin killed Navalny. If you really want to understand Russia, Putin, and the threat to the West, start here. If you don't trust media, you need to listen to folks like Kasperov. 

 

Sorry, Budanov says no. That said, the combination of deprivations that the Putin regime subjected him to and his prolonged fastings certainly killed him in the end. RIP. Why Budanov unhelpfully challenges the Western dominant narrative at this juncture is anybody's guess. But I will have a go !

 

He doesn't want Navalny to be a martyr. Ever since Navalny's death, the Ukrainian leadership has been very busy reminding everyone that he wasn't a saint. They seem to view it as a problem that in the Western perception the important part is that you're anti Putin, not where you stand on the issue of Crimea.

I guess that ultimately their worry is that the West would be too willing to deal with a nationalistic replacement if anything should ever happen to Putin - which is not entirely unreasonable, the whole "Putin's war" trope creates room for exactly that possibility.

 

Also, from that post up thread that the Kyiv Independent wrote they tellingly quoted this ;

We should also not forget that it is the very same Navalny who, following the unprovoked Russian invasion of Georgia in 2008, wrote that he would “really like to hit the rodents at the (Georgian) General Staff with a cruise missile” and advocated for providing military assistance to now Russian-occupied South Ossetia and Abkhazia, not to mention a “complete” Russian blockade of Georgia.

 

 

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/28630

 

“I may disappoint you, but as far as we know, he indeed died as a result of a blood clot. And this has been more or less confirmed,” Budanov told journalists on the sidelines at the “Ukraine. Year of 2024” forum on Sunday.

"This wasn't sourced from the internet, but, unfortunately, natural [causes],” he added.

Edited March 10 by beautifulthailand99

[beautifulthailand99]

Crikey I didn't realise how much Ukrainians actually hated the man. Here's why.

 

https://www.promoteukraine.org/appeal-of-ukrainian-civil-society-regarding-navalnys-installation-in-place-luxembourg/

[rattlesnake]

3 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Crikey I didn't realise how much Ukrainians actually hated the man. Here's why.

 

https://www.promoteukraine.org/appeal-of-ukrainian-civil-society-regarding-navalnys-installation-in-place-luxembourg/

 

Navalny was a racist, crooked scumbag. At least this thread will have shed some light on the Western establishment's latest "hero".

[beautifulthailand99]

7 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Navalny was a racist, crooked scumbag. At least this thread will have shed some light on the Western establishment's latest "hero".

 

Well, Ukrainians aren't shedding any tears for him, that's for certain. To a degree the west is trolling Russia rather than a true concern for his death.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/3/4/why-ukraine-is-wary-of-the-russian-opposition

 

It seemed to make sense for Ukrainians to offer support for Navalny’s movement, at least tactical if not strategic, as it could potentially destabilise Putin’s regime and subvert its war machine. But the troubles of Navalny and his followers did not resonate with Ukrainians, as his past remarks, as well as the Navalnists’ arrogance and disdain, offered little hope that “the wonderful Russia of the future” would have any respect for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Even after the Russian authorities poisoned Navalny with a nerve agent and later imprisoned him on politically-motivated charges, few Ukrainians softened their stances.

Edited March 10 by beautifulthailand99

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

I rest my case.

 

I have provided ample information on the matter, which those who read this thread can go into to broaden their view and knowledge if they wish to.

 

I acknowledge your unwavering willingness to believe/claim that Putin and the Ukrainian situation are as portrayed by the Western establishment.

"ample", "credible" and "convincing" are three different adjectives.  I concede you have provided "ample" evidence.

 

I largely believe the "Western establishment" version of events because it largely (or at least less so than in countries such as Russia and China) is not controlled by their governments and are the versions most consistent with facts.  They do better in the "credible" and "convincing" categories.

[rabas]

14 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Sorry, Budanov says no. That said, the combination of deprivations that the Putin regime subjected him to and his prolonged fastings certainly killed him in the end. RIP. Why Budanov unhelpfully challenges the Western dominant narrative at this juncture is anybody's guess. But I will have a go !

 

He doesn't want Navalny to be a martyr. Ever since Navalny's death, the Ukrainian leadership has been very busy reminding everyone that he wasn't a saint. They seem to view it as a problem that in the Western perception the important part is that you're anti Putin, not where you stand on the issue of Crimea.

I guess that ultimately their worry is that the West would be too willing to deal with a nationalistic replacement if anything should ever happen to Putin - which is not entirely unreasonable, the whole "Putin's war" trope creates room for exactly that possibility.

 

Also, from that post up thread that the Kyiv Independent wrote they tellingly quoted this ;

We should also not forget that it is the very same Navalny who, following the unprovoked Russian invasion of Georgia in 2008, wrote that he would “really like to hit the rodents at the (Georgian) General Staff with a cruise missile” and advocated for providing military assistance to now Russian-occupied South Ossetia and Abkhazia, not to mention a “complete” Russian blockade of Georgia.

 

 

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/28630

 

“I may disappoint you, but as far as we know, he indeed died as a result of a blood clot. And this has been more or less confirmed,” Budanov told journalists on the sidelines at the “Ukraine. Year of 2024” forum on Sunday.

"This wasn't sourced from the internet, but, unfortunately, natural [causes],” he added.

 

I don't disagree with your analysis of Budanov's motives. I assumed he views Navalny as a distraction from more noble causes. Keeping his name and his wife out of politics in case Putin loses his grip on power makes sense. 

 

Edited March 11 by rabas

[rattlesnake]

US intelligence believes Putin probably didn't order Navalny to be killed, Wall Street Journal reports

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-intelligence-believes-putin-probably-didnt-order-navalny-be-killed-wsj-2024-04-27/