Controversy erupts as Thai doctors clash over mRNA vaccine effect

[dinsdale]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Jessica Koth, director of public relations for the [National Funeral Directors] association, told us in an email that “[f]uneral service professionals are in no way qualified to draw any conclusions about COVID vaccines and blood clots. We’re not medical examiners or physicians or scientists.”

 

Watch .........the.......video. No such claims were made. You are just strawmanning.

[johng]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

“[f]uneral service professionals are in no way qualified to draw any conclusions about COVID vaccines and blood clots. We’re not medical examiners or physicians or scientists.”

Totally irrelevant  they don't need to be

"medical examiners or physicians or scientists"   to notice that something is different  something has changed  they do the job day in day out  they are qualified to notice something different.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

35 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Watch .........the.......video. No such claims were made. You are just strawmanning.

 

In his YT video, Campbell's repeated questioning prods Hirschman to claim that the clots only began with the arrival of COVID vaccines in 2021, but then also to claim that they were not seen prior in 2020 during the first year of the pandemic. So that's exactly what he's insinuating in his video.

 

 

Edited February 24 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

35 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Again no one has claimed that the vaccines are linked to the white clots.

 

No one? So you didn't bother to read the OP post in this thread, which recounted the following:

 

"Thai doctor Thiravat Hemachudha sparked controversy when he shared information about the potentially fatal effect of the messenger Ribonucleic Acid (mRNA) Covid-19 vaccine, citing English YouTuber John Campbell.

 

Thiravat shared information from the English YouTuber, and retired nurse educator, Campbell, on Facebook on February 19. Thiravat talked about a white clot that was found in people and dead bodies with a history of the mRNA Covid vaccines."

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1320487-controversy-erupts-as-thai-doctors-clash-over-mrna-vaccine-effect/

 

That pretty much sounds like folks linking the clots with COVID vaccines... of course, without any evidence or proof of the connection, and the notion of such a connection having previously been debunked by various medical experts, as recounted in my earlier posts here above.

 

And of course, that's exactly what numerous anti-vax posters have been doing and trying to do throughout this ridiculous thread -- claim some connection between the clots and COVID vaccines.

 

So much for your "no one."

 

 

 

Edited February 24 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[dinsdale]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

In his YT video, Campbell's repeated questioning claims that the clots reported by Hirschman only began with the arrival of COVID vaccines in 2021, but not prior in 2020 during the first year of the pandemic. So that's exactly what he's insinuating in his video.

 

 

So. Insinuation and statement are two different things. He's simply questioning if there is a causal link. Is there? Maybe, maybe not but what is certain is that independant investigation is required.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, dinsdale said:

So. Insinuation and statement are two different things. He's simply questioning if there is a causal link. Is there? Maybe, maybe not but what is certain is that independant investigation is required.

 

 

 

"there is no evidence that the clots are related to vaccination, nor are they necessarily abnormal. Many of the clots shown, in fact, appear to be postmortem clots, or blood clots that form after death, which would have nothing to do with vaccination or why someone died."

...

"Burnett, the Columbia physician, explained in a TikTok video debunking the “documentary” that the clots have many features characteristic of postmortem clots.

 

“If you look at postmortem clots just with the naked eye, they’re gelatinous and they’re rubbery. And if you listen to the embalmers on this documentary, that’s exactly how they’re describing these new, strange clots,” he said.

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2022/12/scicheck-died-suddenly-pushes-bogus-depopulation-theory/

 

 

 

[John Drake]

On 2/22/2024 at 1:08 PM, Dogmatix said:

What are long term effects of Sino Vax and Sino Pharm which did nothing except line the pockets of certain Thai politicians and Thai Chinese owned businesses?

 

Apparently, nothing. I've seen no stories or claims that the Chinese vaccines caused dangerous side effects. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know. 

[johng]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"Burnett, the Columbia physician, explained in a TikTok video

Hold on I thought "Social media sources" where not allowed 

TikTok

 

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

there is no evidence that the clots are related to vaccination

So far there is also no evidence that thay are not..this is the whole point people (experts in their fields) are saying they see something different.

Calling for a rigorous investigation  is met with claims of "misinformation" and  "Antivaccerism"

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And more:

 

Mike Adams’ flawed analysis of a clot sent by embalmer Richard Hirschman doesn’t demonstrate any link between blood clots and COVID-19 vaccines

 

12 Sep 2022

...

"Irene Sansano, an anatomical pathology specialist at the Vall d’Hebron University Hospital in Barcelona, Spain, said in an email to Health Feedback that the clots found by Hirschman “don’t look different” from the ones they regularly find in blood clot autopsies at the hospital. She also explained that thromboembolisms (circulating blood clots) are frequent among deceased people and are mainly caused by “obesity, sedentarism, smoking, and now COVID-19”.

...

However, the claim [of some association between the clots and COVID vaccines] is based on anecdotal evidence and flawed experiments that don’t support such an association. COVID-19 itself is much more likely to cause blood clots than the vaccines, which remain an effective strategy to prevent severe COVID-19 and the cardiovascular complications associated with it."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/mike-adams-flawed-analysis-clot-embalmer-richard-hirschman-doesnt-demonstrate-link-between-blood-clots-and-covid-19-vaccines-epoch-times/

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And more on the recycling of the bogus, unsupported link between COVID vaccines and the blood clots, as originally cited in a notorious 2022 anti-vax film that's been widely debunked and discredited. But that didn't stop John Campbell from coming along now lately and resurfacing the same discredited nonsense by re-interviewing embalmer Hirschman, who made the same claims in the film.

 

And what did actual medical doctors and experts have to say on the subject?

 

Experts Debunk Claims From New Anti-Vax Documentary

November 30, 2022

...

"It features several embalmers and funeral directors who claim to be coming forward for the first time to share their concerns over supposedly unusual blood clots found in deceased individuals they prepared for burial. But the main individual featured in the film is Ryan Cole, MD, who has a history of promoting false claims about the COVID vaccines and cancer.

...

Eric Burnett, MD, of Columbia University's Irving Medical Center, said neither of those claims holds up to scrutiny.  "I see a lot of blood clots in the hospital," Burnett told MedPage Today. "Just looking at those blood clots from the movie, they look like very common postmortem blood clots, and I feel like it was just the shock and awe value of using these images of blood clots taken out of context to scare people."

 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/101975

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

25 minutes ago, johng said:

Hold on I thought "Social media sources" where not allowed 

TikTok

 

 

 

The source I cited was not a TikTok video... But instead, a FactCheck.org article that made mention that the quoted doctor also had done a TikTok video on the topic debunking the false claims:

 

"Burnett, the Columbia physician, explained in a TikTok video debunking the “documentary” that the clots have many features characteristic of postmortem clots.

 

“If you look at postmortem clots just with the naked eye, they’re gelatinous and they’re rubbery. And if you listen to the embalmers on this documentary, that’s exactly how they’re describing these new, strange clots,” he said.

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2022/12/scicheck-died-suddenly-pushes-bogus-depopulation-theory/

Edited February 24 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And more dismissing the claims previously made by embalmer Hirschman, repeated via Campbell's YT video, suggesting a link between the blood clots and COVID vaccines:

 

There’s no scientific evidence that vaccines are responsible for strange blood clots observed by embalmers

This anomaly may be the result of the coronavirus itself, since infection can cause blood vessel inflammation, damage to very small vessels and clots.

...

"Experts we talked to say there’s something to the claim about a greater incidence of blood clots, but they dismiss the idea that it’s linked to the vaccines. What embalmers are noticing, they say, could well be the effects of COVID-19 infection itself, and those effects are occurring in people who are vaccinated and unvaccinated.

...

“The association between COVID-19 and blood clots was recognized early in the pandemic among hospitalized COVID-19 patients,” said Yazan Abou-Ismail, a hematologist at University of Utah Health. “These patients experienced blood clots both in deep veins and arteries, which sometimes led to strokes and heart attacks. Although these conditions have mostly been seen in patients with severe COVID-19 illness, people with moderate illness have also developed blood clots.”

 

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/theres-no-scientific-evidence-that-vaccines-are-responsible-for-strange-blood-clots-observed-by-embalmers/

 

[johng]

I see not much has changed here  very sad to say.

[rattlesnake]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:23 AM, Roo Island said:

Right back at you on this one. Follow the science, not YouTubbers.

 

In the midst of the crisis, YouTube and other major social media platforms censored all alternative views on the vaccine harshly and were the last place to go for the truth. Dr Campbell, at the time, was very much pro-jab and I have never watched any of his videos.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

all alternative views on the vaccine

 

"Alternate views on the vaccine" translating into discredited, unsupported and flawed or misleading claims put forth mostly by a variety of figures with extensive histories of misinformation, and typically not individuals who had/have any direct professional experience with infectious diseases and COVID vaccines.

 

That's a more accurate description than your use of the term "alternate," unless you mean folks operating in their own "alternate reality" apart from actual medicine and science.

 

 

[rattlesnake]

11 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

"Alternate views on the vaccine" translating into discredited, unsupported and flawed or misleading claims put forth mostly by a variety of figures with extensive histories of misinformation, and typically not individuals who had/have any direct professional experience with infectious diseases and COVID vaccines.

 

That's a more accurate description than your use of the term "alternate," unless you mean folks operating in their own "alternate reality" apart from actual medicine and science.

 

 

 

You mean people like Thiravat Hemachudha, head of the Thai Red Cross Emerging Infectious Disease Health Science Centre of the Faculty of Medicine at Chulalongkorn University, who was a vocal proponent of the jab during the crisis and is now calling for investigations?

 

Has he become a conspiracy theorist, all of a sudden?

 

“There is an organised effort to cover up information and facts about the number of people who have died or are suffering from Long COVID by means of under-reporting their numbers and an effort to prevent public access to such information on social media, leaving many people unaware that they are being affected by Long COVID from vaccination and depriving them of proper treatment.”

 

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/allegations-made-over-cover-up-about-long-covid/



 

Edited February 24 by rattlesnake

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

36 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

You mean people like Thiravat Hemachudha, head of the Thai Red Cross Emerging Infectious Disease Health Science Centre of the Faculty of Medicine at Chulalongkorn University, who was a vocal proponent of the jab during the crisis and is now calling for investigations?

 

Has he become a conspiracy theorist, all of a sudden?

 

“There is an organised effort to cover up information and facts about the number of people who have died or are suffering from Long COVID by means of under-reporting their numbers and an effort to prevent public access to such information on social media, leaving many people unaware that they are being affected by Long COVID from vaccination and depriving them of proper treatment.”

 

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/allegations-made-over-cover-up-about-long-covid/



 

 

And yet, for some reason, we have Hemachudha publicly citing John Campbell's videos as credible information, even going so far as to say via the OP report:

 

"Thiravat also attached links to Campbell’s videos for others to see the source of his information. He cited that Campbell was credible due to several cooperations with the National Health Service in England and many medical schools and universities."

 

Anyone claiming credibility for Campbell (who isn't even an MD) and his tarnished misinformation record on COVID (as documented by numerous posts and supporting links above) has clearly gone down the rabbit hole, as Hemachudha appears to have done lately, with his Thai language articles and posts attacking COVID vaccines often citing widely discredited and debunked anti-vax reports from the U.S. as his sources.

 

How much credibility should Hemachudha be given on this topic when he's relying on a documented misinformation purveyor as his source, and ignoring the numerous fact check reports and the opinions of multiple experts in the field both posted above that say embalmer Hirschman's claims relating to COVID vaccines are not credible?

 

Edited February 24 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[dinsdale]

28 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"Alternate views on the vaccine" translating into discredited, unsupported and flawed or misleading claims put forth mostly by a variety of figures with extensive histories of misinformation..."

How about efficacy debate. Censored. Safety debate. Censored. Possible other treatments. Censored. Any negative comment about the vaccines. Censored. All were called conspiracy theories. The only narrative allowed was the one supporting the vaccines. This is not how it should be in a democratic system where freedom of speech is one of the main underpinnings.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, dinsdale said:

How about efficacy debate. Censored. Safety debate. Censored. Possible other treatments. Censored. Any negative comment about the vaccines. Censored. All were called conspiracy theories. The only narrative allowed was the one supporting the vaccines. This is not how it should be in a democratic system where freedom of speech is one of the main underpinnings.

 

Geez, where were the censors when it came to the bogus, debunked anti-vax claims that are at the heart of this thread?

 

In other circles, there's plenty of opportunity to debate and assess all the things you mention. But real scientists and researchers are very capable of distinguishing differing views on factual, credibly derived info vs. outright unsupported and misleading claims based on junk so-called science by those with long track records of documented misinformation.

 

 

[dinsdale]

18 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

n other circles, there's plenty of opportunity to debate and assess all the things you mention. But real scientists and researchers are very capable of distinguishing differing views on factual, credibly derived info vs. outright unsupported and misleading claims based on junk so-called science by those with long track records of documented misinformation.

Many real doctors and scientists were threatened if the didn't follow the narrative. People lost employment because they didn't want to be jabbed. This is not democracy. Again I say that going against the claim that the jabs were safe and effective as claimed was a consipracy theory in the early days. Now it's a fact. And you keep going on about misinformation well here's some for you...

 

 

Edited February 24 by stats
misinfo claim removed

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For example, on the issue of distinguishing credible science from non-credible nonsense by non-credible authors:

 

Paper claiming ‘extensive’ harms of COVID-19 vaccines to be retracted

February 19, 2024

 

A journal is retracting a paper on the purported harms of vaccines against COVID-19 written in part by authors who have had similar work retracted before.

 

The article, “COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines: Lessons Learned from the Registrational Trials and Global Vaccination Campaign,” appeared late last month in Cureus, which used to be a stand-alone journal but is now owned by Springer Nature. (It has appeared frequently in these pages.)

 

Graham Parker, Director of Publishing and Customer Success at Cureus, told Retraction Watch:

I can confirm we will be retracting it by the end of the week, as we have provided the authors with a deadline to reply and indicate whether they agree or disagree with the retraction.

https://retractionwatch.com/2024/02/19/paper-claiming-extensive-harms-of-covid-19-vaccines-to-be-retracted/

 

----------------------------------------

 

The authors of the above journal article include some of the most prolific originators of COVID misinformation, including Peter McCullough, Steve Kirsch, Stephanie Seneff, and Jessica Rose.

 

"Two of the paper’s authors, Steve Kirsch and Peter McCullough, have often spread misinformation related to COVID-19 and the vaccine."

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/feb/09/instagram-posts/experts-say-mrna-covid-19-vaccines-have-saved-mill/

 

"Russell Blaylock and Stephanie Seneff, who are associate editors at IJVTPR, also have a history of propagating COVID-19 and vaccine disinformation in the past."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/preventing-deaths-isnt-sole-benefit-covid19-vaccination-contrary-epoch-times-article/

 

"Of course, in the age of sophisticated molecular biology and genetics, antivaxxers can always find a special case that seems to show that the impossible is actually possible, and Jessica Rose is just continuing in this antivax tradition of misusing science..."

 

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-return-of-the-revenge-of-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-permanently-alter-your-dna-and-lab-leak/

 

 

 

[dinsdale]

8 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

For example:

 

Paper claiming ‘extensive’ harms of COVID-19 vaccines to be retracted

February 19, 2024

 

A journal is retracting a paper on the purported harms of vaccines against COVID-19 written in part by authors who have had similar work retracted before.

 

The article, “COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines: Lessons Learned from the Registrational Trials and Global Vaccination Campaign,” appeared late last month in Cureus, which used to be a stand-alone journal but is now owned by Springer Nature. (It has appeared frequently in these pages.)

 

Graham Parker, Director of Publishing and Customer Success at Cureus, told Retraction Watch:

I can confirm we will be retracting it by the end of the week, as we have provided the authors with a deadline to reply and indicate whether they agree or disagree with the retraction.

https://retractionwatch.com/2024/02/19/paper-claiming-extensive-harms-of-covid-19-vaccines-to-be-retracted/

 

 

Exactly. Great example. Cheers. The vaccines "purportedly" have caused deaths, injuries, blood clots, been found in multiple organs in the body, been found in mothers milk all puportedly of course. 

Edited February 24 by dinsdale

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

 

Acknowledged rare serious vaccine side effects vanishingly small compared to the lives saved and illnesses prevented from COVID:

ICMRA statement on the safety of COVID-19 vaccines

"COVID-19 vaccines significantly reduce the risk of severe disease, hospitalisation and death from infection with SARS-CoV-2. 

...

Evidence from the more than 13 billions of vaccine doses given worldwide shows that COVID-19 vaccines have a very good safety profile in all age groups. The benefits of the approved vaccines far outweigh the possible risks.

...

False and misleading information about the safety of COVID-19 vaccines on social media often exaggerates the frequency and severity of side effects. Misinformation also wrongly attributes unrelated medical events to the vaccines.

...

Millions of lives are estimated to have been saved by COVID-19 vaccination."

 

International Coalition of Medicines Regulatory Authorities
ICMRA brings together 38 medicines regulatory authorities from every region in the world, with the WHO as an observer.

 

https://icmra.info/drupal/strategicinitiatives/vaccines/safety_statement

 

 

Edited February 24 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[rattlesnake]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

And yet, for some reason, we have Hemachudha publicly citing John Campbell's videos as credible information, even going so far as to say via the OP report:

 

"Thiravat also attached links to Campbell’s videos for others to see the source of his information. He cited that Campbell was credible due to several cooperations with the National Health Service in England and many medical schools and universities."

 

Anyone claiming credibility for Campbell (who isn't even an MD) and his tarnished misinformation record on COVID (as documented by numerous posts and supporting links above) has clearly gone down the rabbit hole, as Hemachudha appears to have done lately, with his Thai language articles and posts attacking COVID vaccines often citing widely discredited and debunked anti-vax reports from the U.S. as his sources.

 

How much credibility should Hemachudha be given on this topic when he's relying on a documented misinformation purveyor as his source, and ignoring the numerous fact check reports and the opinions of multiple experts in the field both posted above that say embalmer Hirschman's claims relating to COVID vaccines are not credible?

 

 

"How much credibility should Hemachudha be given on this topic when he's relying on a documented misinformation purveyor as his source, and ignoring the numerous fact check reports and the opinions of multiple experts in the field both posted above that say embalmer Hirschman's claims relating to COVID vaccines are not credible?"

 

Definitely a lot more than all of us here, given his background, experience and expertise.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Except I'm not asking anyone here to take MY word for these things...

 

But instead, regarding the credibility of Campbell, the half-dozen plus sourced fact check and other reports previously posted above showing where he had repeatedly presented misleading or misinformation about COVID-related topics, raising doubts about his credibility.

 

 

And regarding the embalmer interviewed by Campbell, another half dozen or so sourced fact checks and other reports previously posted above saying there is NO credible evidence to support his/their claims and insinuations that COVID vaccines may have been or were responsible for the reported blood clots.

 

I won't requote them all here, because the details have all been posted earlier in this thread in the following links:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1320487-controversy-erupts-as-thai-doctors-clash-over-mrna-vaccine-effect/?do=findComment&comment=18718651

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1320487-controversy-erupts-as-thai-doctors-clash-over-mrna-vaccine-effect/?do=findComment&comment=18718582

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1320487-controversy-erupts-as-thai-doctors-clash-over-mrna-vaccine-effect/?do=findComment&comment=18718553

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1320487-controversy-erupts-as-thai-doctors-clash-over-mrna-vaccine-effect/?do=findComment&comment=18718540

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1320487-controversy-erupts-as-thai-doctors-clash-over-mrna-vaccine-effect/?do=findComment&comment=18718489

 

But in summary:

 

"Other experts have come to the same conclusion when asked before by fact-checkers about such claims from funeral service providers, including Hirschman and O’Looney.

 

“The images look to me more like postmortem clots, mainly due to the color, the shape, and particularly because of the amount,” Nikolaus Klupp, an associate professor of forensic medicine at the Medical University of Vienna, told Health Feedback in September."

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2022/12/scicheck-died-suddenly-pushes-bogus-depopulation-theory/

 

Listen to the experts. Not the misinformation peddlers.

 

[dinsdale]

7 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Listen to the experts. Not the misinformation peddlers.

I agree but IMO the experts were silenced and the misinformation peddlers are those who pushed the narrative and forced populations into conformity NOT based on evidence based science. Lockdowns were a perfect example of this.

Edited February 25 by dinsdale

[Roo Island]

 

16 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

And how did you rate the guidance from governments through Covid? Many would call much of that disinformation.

 

Since the first signs of long Covid, then excess death rates, and now several new post covid medical problems, Campbell has simply tried to make people aware of these things. His concerns are always supported by the inclusions of relevant medical specialists. He is not a conspiracy theorist and I'm glad that there are some people like him in "our society".    

The US had a horrible leader who was a covid denier and supporter of misinformation. But. There were lots of great sources of information from a variety of medical institutions. None of which required using social media.

 

Campbell spreads misinformation for profit on social media. Ignore him.

[Roo Island]

16 hours ago, johng said:

Says you !!  and of course "the fact checkers"

Who fact checks the fact check checkers ? 

who funds the "fact check checkers" ?

Here's my guess who funds them  the same who fund the MSN  "AKA"

legacy media or "trusted media sources"  guess who.

 

His Wikipedia page which HE can't edit/emend to counter the accusations against him.

Typical reply from those who fall for the misinformation. Who fact checks the fact checkers. Followed by bashing MSM.

 

He can edit his wiki page. Under their guidelines.

[dinsdale]

3 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

 

The US had a horrible leader who was a covid denier and supporter of misinformation. But. There were lots of great sources of information from a variety of medical institutions. None of which required using social media.

 

Campbell spreads misinformation for profit on social media. Ignore him.

Everything he posts is supported by citations from legitimate sources. If you agree or disagree is up to you but at least he gives the opportunity to make informed decisions.

[Roo Island]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

No. Campbell is an accused peddler of COVID and COVID vaccines misinformation, as has been claimed by your so-called fact check rubbish - strange that it contains no actual direct links to the examples of misinformation that Dr. Campbell is accused of spreading.

Guilty of spreading misinformation.

 

https://healthfeedback.org/authors/john-campbell/