The Prisoner: McGoohan at his written-best with Lava Lamps, and no Kiss, Kiss; Bang Bang!

[GammaGlobulin]

2 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

Must part company on Straw Dogs. It has not aged well. The Susan George character is a mysogenistic male fantasy: the feral child-woman. Dustin Hoffman goes from nerd to psycho-killer a little too easily to be believed. Actually, no character at all in that film remotely makes sense.

 

Some say that this quality of the film is part of it's allure.

And, it was the reason that Quentin Tarantino called this film...."ART".

 

IMHO, on the contrary, I beg to differ and I believe this film, Straw Dogs, has aged well and remains surprisingly watchable and relevant today.

This film is not for the more modern brainwashed generations, the very ones who tend to see the world in back and white.

These recent generations are almost incapable of seeing see their world in nuanced ways; this is due to their failure to read widely, presumably, and changing politics, and PC, and their hypocrisy.

 

Here is a little news story I found in Cornwall-LIVE....

Very nice, I think...

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/history/straw-dogs-made-village-cornwall-4693206

 

Each to his own, but this film is far more memorable than any of Peckinpaugh's other films.

It's above the rest.

The Wild Bunch is a thing of the past, and no longer that interesting (at least to me).....

 

Just an opinion and a feeling, and...I am probably mistaken, as usual.

 

 

 

 

 

[Prubangboy]

31 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

 

This film is not for the more modern brainwashed generations, the very ones who tend to see the world in back and white.

These recent generations are almost incapable of seeing see their world in nuanced ways; this is due to their failure to read widely, presumably, and changing politics, and PC, and their hypocrisy.

 

This is an important point, but one I view very different from you, my old cineaste friend.

 

Ultimately, the young get to decide what staggers on into history. And it probably won't be Straw Dogs.

 

It would be impossible to film a scene like the rape scene in that film today. The talent wouldn't do it and the wider audience wouldn't sit through it. A lot of stuff from that era just seems cruel for no purpose. The mindless harassment of HotLips Houlihan in MASH is another example. I laughed hard at it back then, now it's def cringeworthy.

 

Changing tastes, changing morals should not be regarded as inferior; they are just a fact of life. Please get out of the way if you can't lend a hand, because The Times, They Are a Changing.

 

The Wild Bunch derives heavily from the work and atmosphere of the great, great adventure writer, B.Traven. Like Cross of Iron (another under-rated book), Peckinpah was generally only as good as his source material. The book that Straw Dogs was based on was very thin, . the film is much better.

 

The drunken, mysogenist genius was trope of our era that is fading fast. See also: Henry Miller, Charles Bukowski, Jack Kerouac, Norman Mailer.

 

The  cultural context moves on, and then soon after, the art born out of that context disappears.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

Here is a little news story I found in Cornwall-LIVE....

Very nice, I think...

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/history/straw-dogs-made-village-cornwall-4693206

 

Each to his own, but this film is far more memorable than any of Peckinpaugh's other films.

It's above the rest.

The Wild Bunch is a thing of the past, and no longer that interesting (at least to me).....

 

Just an opinion and a feeling, and...I am probably mistaken, as usual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

10 minutes ago, Prubangboy said:

It would be impossible to film a scene like the rape scene in that film today. The talent wouldn't do it and the wider audience wouldn't sit through it. A lot of stuff from that era just seems cruel for no purpose. The mindless harassment of HotLips Houlihan in MASH is another example. I laughed hard at it back then, now it's def cringeworthy.

 

The problem is that much of society today does not find REAL VIOLENCE in the real world cringeworthy.

They cringe and object in politically correct sort of ways to what they see on their phones.

Yet, they could care less about the violence and tragedies of real life around them.

 

I would say that you, for some reason, are a bit oversensitive, or even hypersensitive, even though I realize that you are not one of the younger generations.  What does it mean to be cringeworthy for you? HotLips' Persecution?

 

I did not grow up with such a false sense of reality and real life that I would be bothered by the treatment of Hot Lips.

 

On the other hand, I am in no way a Trump-like boor.

 

Also, I believe you are wrong in your interpretation of Straw Dogs if you believe that film glorified the misogynistic view. This was the original, and mistaken, interpretation by many when the film was first released.  And, this misinterpretation of the film is still with us, I see, even here.

 

  

[Prubangboy]

I'm less invested in stuff I liked in the past. You're trying to revisit this lost world of your memory. Good luck.

 

Not much is like James Brown, who I loved 60 years ago and I still spin today. I change, and it's great to see that change reflected in my reaction to stuff.

 

Stuff fades off into the mist. Me too, soon enough.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/20/2024 at 4:47 PM, Korat Kiwi said:

I do remember Mogul... just.  My father use to watch it religiously. 

 

We had an old black and white tv, if he was over the the shed (Tobacco farmer: always fixing stuff) we had to run across and tell it was on. 

 

Absolutely no noise allowed from any of us kids while it was on.  Maybe ask if he wanted a cup of tea during the ads. 

 

 

As the series was made in black and white that was no problem then.

 

I was the same when Blake's 7 was on. No one disturbed me or else. My most number one watch ever. Hill St Blues might have been, but I remortgaged the house and bought a VDO recorder ( yes they were that expensive back then- Betamax and I've still got it ).

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

The problem is that much of society today does not find REAL VIOLENCE in the real world cringeworthy.

They cringe and object in politically correct sort of ways to what they see on their phones.

Yet, they could care less about the violence and tragedies of real life around them.

 

I would say that you, for some reason, are a bit oversensitive, or even hypersensitive, even though I realize that you are not one of the younger generations.  What does it mean to be cringeworthy for you? HotLips' Persecution?

 

I did not grow up with such a false sense of reality and real life that I would be bothered by the treatment of Hot Lips.

 

On the other hand, I am in no way a Trump-like boor.

 

Also, I believe you are wrong in your interpretation of Straw Dogs if you believe that film glorified the misogynistic view. This was the original, and mistaken, interpretation by many when the film was first released.  And, this misinterpretation of the film is still with us, I see, even here.

 

  

This was the original, and mistaken, interpretation by many when the film was first released.

I didn't realise that woke existed even back then. Bit sad.

 

I didn't even think that scene was a big deal.

 

 

Yet, they could care less about the violence and tragedies of real life around them.

So very, very true.

Where are the demonstrations supporting the people of Burma against their fascist military? Nowhere to be seen. Sudan? Not happening. Tibet? Likewise. Hong Kong. No, nothing at all.

 

The sheeple only care about what they are instructed to care about by their "influencers" ( what a truly vile word that has become ).

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

The mindless harassment of HotLips Houlihan in MASH is another example.

It wasn't mindless, and she deserved it. I guess no one that has not served would understand it, but it's part a reaction to a war lover, and part reaction to a bully, and partly to a realisation that war is insane and the only way to beat it is by becoming hardened to the insanity. War does produce great humour, The goon show was created by people that served in the insanity. Perhaps there is no real humour in media today because so few of us now have lived through a real war. If not for the laugh track would we know where to laugh?

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

I'm less invested in stuff I liked in the past. You're trying to revisit this lost world of your memory. Good luck.

When the present is <deleted> and the future will be worse, there is nowhere else to take refuge but in the past.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

Ultimately, the young get to decide what staggers on into history. And it probably won't be Straw Dogs.

I doubt any of the "young" even know what Straw Dogs refers to. Apparently they like Barbie movies. In any event the stuff they watch like Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy is just rubbish with great special effects. I've sat through enough of them to know. In the end they became so <deleted> I didn't bother any more. Superman vs Batman 5555555555555

 

15 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

It would be impossible to film a scene like the rape scene in that film today. The talent wouldn't do it and the wider audience wouldn't sit through it.

LOL. You never watched any torture porn like "Saw" or "I want to spit on your grave" then. Of course actors would do it if they needed the money, but audiences are too soft and woke now, so I doubt any producer would allow it.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Each to his own, but this film is far more memorable than any of Peckinpaugh's other films.

It's above the rest.

The Wild Bunch is a thing of the past, and no longer that interesting (at least to me).....

 

Just an opinion and a feeling, and...I am probably mistaken, as usual.

You are. The Wild Bunch was art, while Straw Dogs was just another movie- well made, but nothing special. I did like the part when someone ( I presume Hoffman ) dropped the big trap on the bad guy's head ( Oliver Reed's I hope ). It's always great when a bad guy gets what s/he deserves, and it's only in movies that that happens.

 

Sadly, some woke person decided to remove the slow motion bullets erupting in an explosion of blood from The Wild Bunch DVD, which rendered it just another western, though really well made, if a trifle long.

However, the ballet of death at the end will never be equaled, IMO. It was longer when I saw it first, but after removing the slow motion part it wasn't very long at all.

[Korat Kiwi]

40 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As the series was made in black and white that was no problem then.

 

I was the same when Blake's 7 was on. No one disturbed me or else. My most number one watch ever. Hill St Blues might have been, but I remortgaged the house and bought a VDO recorder ( yes they were that expensive back then- Betamax and I've still got it ).

Oh... Joyce Davenport (Veronica Hamel) now she was a true vixen! 

 

 

Frank Furillos' bit of fluff on the side. 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I don't know how many films I have watched that I have afterwards read a critic's opinion of and wondered what the <deleted> they were on about. I think they just like to justify their jobs by writing a load of cobblers about movies.

The one I quoted fits that category.

Perhaps people that rarely see movies see things in them that I was oblivious to, but most movies are just entertainment for me, not some great social event. I have seen a great many movies in my life, and only ever saw one so bad that I had to walk out of it ( badly made, not about bad things ).

 

Out of Africa won loads of Oscars, but I thought it very average.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, Korat Kiwi said:

Oh... Joyce Davenport (Veronica Hamel) now she was a true vixen! 

 

 

Frank Furillos' bit of fluff on the side. 

I guess we vary in our liking of women then. She left me indifferent, but Wendy Padbury ( one of Dr Who's assistants back when the series was made in black and white ) really stirred my hormones.

[Korat Kiwi]

31 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It wasn't mindless, and she deserved it. I guess no one that has not served would understand it, but it's part a reaction to a war lover, and part reaction to a bully, and partly to a realisation that war is insane and the only way to beat it is by becoming hardened to the insanity. War does produce great humour, The goon show was created by people that served in the insanity. Perhaps there is no real humour in media today because so few of us now have lived through a real war. If not for the laugh track would we know where to laugh?

MASH was a great series and like you said,  they were facing the daily and ongoing task of repairing the realities (People/casualties) of a bloody war. 

 

When they managed to get some down time they tried to enjoy it.  Pranks/gags and jokes were one way of dealing with the ongoing stress. 

 

There were some very down to earth episodes through out the whole 11 seasons (256 episodes). Very well written and portrayed by various actors. 

 

Again this was a must watch series in our home, as soon as the 'suicide is painless' theme came on.... It was QUIET! in the house. 

 

China Beach was also a series that I enjoyed. Great music too

[Korat Kiwi]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I guess we vary in our liking of women then. She left me indifferent, but Wendy Padbury ( one of Dr Who's assistants back when the series was made in black and white ) really stirred my hormones.

  She's cute in a goofy sort of way...

 

No offense meant! 

 

[Korat Kiwi]

A bit like the Flying Nun 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/20/2024 at 5:35 PM, GammaGlobulin said:

Straw Dogs (1971) is still Sam Peckinpah's all-time Masterpiece.

Nah. The wild Bunch made Peckinpah and was the best one he made. I kept expecting a repeat of it in his after movies but they always left me disappointed.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, Denim said:

Yes. A classic of the time.  Right up there with Kubricks Barry Lyndon.

 

Kubrick is not an easy man to work with. 

They made much of the fact that Barry Lyndon was lit only by candles. Other than that I remember nothing of it.

I certainly remember Dr Strangelove. Who could ever forget Slim Pickens riding the bomb that would destroy the world, waving his hat as he descended to oblivion.

 

Of course, the movie that made Kubrick was 2001. To this day I do not understand what the <deleted> he was thinking when he made the journey through time or whatever it was at the end. Perhaps he just liked the pretty patterns. The rest of the movie was memorable, but none as memorable as the opening scene set to Strauss's 'Sunrise' theme.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 minutes ago, Korat Kiwi said:

  She's cute in a goofy sort of way...

 

No offense meant! 

 

No offense taken. I like em petite, and I guess I was always destined to marry a Thai woman that barely came up to my shoulder.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 minutes ago, Korat Kiwi said:

A bit like the Flying Nun 

 

For a moment I thought Wendy was Sally field. I was a great fan of Field in Gidget, but I thought the nun series was daft. Again, a petite woman.

[thaibeachlovers]

24 minutes ago, Korat Kiwi said:

MASH was a great series and like you said,  they were facing the daily and ongoing task of repairing the realities (People/casualties) of a bloody war. 

 

When they managed to get some down time they tried to enjoy it.  Pranks/gags and jokes were one way of dealing with the ongoing stress. 

 

There were some very down to earth episodes through out the whole 11 seasons (256 episodes). Very well written and portrayed by various actors. 

 

Again this was a must watch series in our home, as soon as the 'suicide is painless' theme came on.... It was QUIET! in the house. 

 

China Beach was also a series that I enjoyed. Great music too

The tv series ran longer than the actual war!

 

If one watches series 1 it was far more cruel in it's humour, like the movie, than in later series when it became much more "gentle" Getting rid of Hot Lip's squeeze was just the start of making it a kinder series. After he went there wasn't anyone left to hate.

[GammaGlobulin]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt any of the "young" even know what Straw Dogs refers to. Apparently they like Barbie movies. In any event the stuff they watch like Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy is just rubbish with great special effects. I've sat through enough of them to know. In the end they became so <deleted> I didn't bother any more. Superman vs Batman 5555555555555

 

LOL. You never watched any torture porn like "Saw" or "I want to spit on your grave" then. Of course actors would do it if they needed the money, but audiences are too soft and woke now, so I doubt any producer would allow it.

 

STRAW DOG:

 

 

 

 

IMPORTANT NOTE:  This guy Bard used some strange romanization for the Chinese word GRASS!

 

No worries, though, because I properly chastised Him, and he promises to prioritize PinYin in the future.  Bard is like a dumb child in so many respects. You just gotta watch them, every minute, so that they don't get into too much trouble on their own....!

 

 

 

 

So, anyway...

 

THANK YOU for pointing out this important aspect of the film Straw Dogs, which is it's Title.  Yes, and this is important to the understanding of the director's Meaning when he created this Amazing and Fantastic Masterpiece of a Film!!!!!

 

 

====

Alternatively:  One can decide if the Straw Dog in the title has anything or nothing to do with the term STRAW MAN: An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.

 

 

 

Edited April 21 by GammaGlobulin

[GammaGlobulin]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't know how many films I have watched that I have afterwards read a critic's opinion of and wondered what the <deleted> they were on about. I think they just like to justify their jobs by writing a load of cobblers about movies.

The one I quoted fits that category.

Perhaps people that rarely see movies see things in them that I was oblivious to, but most movies are just entertainment for me, not some great social event. I have seen a great many movies in my life, and only ever saw one so bad that I had to walk out of it ( badly made, not about bad things ).

 

Out of Africa won loads of Oscars, but I thought it very average.

 

Instead of paying to see Out of Africa, maybe you should have spent the time immersed in Baby Doll.

 

"What you done is bit off more than you can chew...."

 

 

Edited April 21 by GammaGlobulin

[Prubangboy]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Nah. The wild Bunch made Peckinpah and was the best one he made. 

Agreed. He made a handful of thoughtful westerns, just a westerns were fading into oblivion under pressure from the new indie film taste emerging. The Wild Bunch is the last great western. Dances With Wolves was admirable, but a bit of a slog.

 

Until I saw Mean Streets (like pages out of my youthful diary) I rated WB as the best film of all time.

 

Mean Streets remains my #1 film. GoodFella's overtook it for a decade or two, but Mean Streets was looser and more true to life. Nothing is glamorized; everything is ugly. You don't really want to be the De Niro character at all, whereas in Taxi Driver and Raging Bull, he was some variety of heroic.

 

Back in the day, great films were usually under 90 minutes -certainly all of the euro art films were. People rating stuff like Barry Lyndon highly have to overlook a lot of bloat. Most Kubrick films would benefit from a half hour trim.

 

Citing Saw and I Spit on Your Grave as proof of an audience hunger for brutality forgets that these are pretty old films. You can not show a woman or a minority being seriously humiliated these days, even if a vengeful, killing rampage eventually settles the score. Even Tarantino has "gone soft".

 

Like I said, I look at this neutrally, as the simple passing of time and taste. I don't have a dog in this fight either way. I def agree with TBL that old films should not be altered to suit the tastes of the moment.

 

In his Playboy interview, Peckinpah took great pains to explain that the rape scene in Straw Dogs was not an anal rape scene. This never occurred to me, even after re-watching it after reading the interview. It shows that it was considered over the top even in those more licentious days. Impossible to shoot a scene like that today.

[Prubangboy]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt any of the "young" even know what Straw Dogs refers to. Apparently they like Barbie movies.

 

 

This proves my point that Straw Dogs is bound for the cultural slag heap. Barbie may have a longer shelf life.

 

The young all still dip into Scarface and Wolf of Wall Street, but alot of what I loved when young has been wholesale forgotten.

 

Tom Robbins had a joke: Time, the ultimate diet pill. 

[Korat Kiwi]

I just finished watching The Wild Bunch, just a tad under 2.5hrs. Wow what a raw movie. Probably as it was in those times. 

 

The end scene with all the 'blood and guts'  reminded me a little bit of the ending of Butch Cassidy and the Sunshine Kid.  Lots of bullets. 

 

Unlike American films these days (well the last 3 decades at least) there is no happy ending.  It was quite well produced for its time. 

 

I can probably see where Tarantino got some of his ideas from with slow motion action. 

 

Definitely a classic western. But in a different era say compared to the good, bad and ugly. 

[RayWright]

Getting back to the start of the tread, just read that Christopher Nolan is rumoured to be writing a new script of The Prisoner as his next movie project. Which would give him more artistic control than if the other rumour of him directing the next James Bond is true.

Furthermore a Prisoner reboot under Nolan also gives him the flexibility of turning it into a franchise, i.e. like his Batman. McGoohan's original idea was just 7 episodes, so a 3 or 4 movie franchise could work.

Another thing to note, Nolan was loosely involved with the 2009 reboot of The Prisoner with Sir Ian McKellen and Jim Caviezel, so already has form on the subject.

Be seeing you.