What documents is the juristic condo person required from the owners.

[OneMoreFarang]

22 minutes ago, Dan O said:

cos you didnt get the basics the first time around

Or maybe you don't understand it. Maybe try again.

It is not so difficult to understand what he wrote. 

[Pattaya57]

As a Condo owner I've leased out a Condo through a Real Estate Agent and we had no obligation to provide Juristic with any lease details (as none of their business). Asking for a TM30 is also ridiculous.

 

We do have a warning sign that letting <30 days is not allowed and will be reported, but it's up to Juristic to notice that there is a constant changeover of residents to report.  Seems to work well as we have no airbnb in the 3 building Condo complex.

 

Edited May 2 by Pattaya57

[john donson]

condo management is like maffia... they own nothing but enforce rules and you have to pay and most of the time, overpay...

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, Dan O said:

Explain where you contradict yourself is easy, read what you wrote. you need to go back to Google Academy of Law cos you didnt get the basics the first time around. The regulations or laws are what they are, if they exist for this situation. To claim there's a law requiring something, anything, but that it only impacts one half of the party involved in the regulation or law but the connected party is exempt is pure nonsense unless it specifically states they are exempt. You go ahead and believe what you want. There's only so much help you can give to stupid. Have a great day 

You’re going round in circles.

 

The law has to be specific on what it requires and from who.

 

It has to specify what an owner must do or there is no requirement on the owner simply because there is a requirement on the JP or JPM. 

Where there is a requirement, there is also a liability (fine or imprisonment) for failure to do so.  I suspect there is a fine if the JP does not provide the details, but there is no such fine on the owner.

 

Think it through, you’re not making sense.

 

.

[Dan O]

11 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Or maybe you don't understand it. Maybe try again.

It is not so difficult to understand what he wrote. 

I understood it completely. You cant have a legal document or reg (in this case condo regs) that requires something to be provided by the condo owner and then say it only applies to the management side but not the owner side. Its a binding legal contract. Any penalty is secondary for non compliance and the jurist person or company has the power to enforce it. 

[Korat Kiwi]

Interesting reading about this condo management.  I don't own a condo so never knew about these rules. 

 

However about 2 months ago I had to visit a visa agency in Pattaya.  This required a 2 night stay. 

 

No problem,  planning and preparation done via Booking. Com but when we arrived in Patts we're advised their cleaner had stuffed up and given our room to another customer. 

 

Here's the strange/funny part.  Don't worry we have a condo across the road you can use.  If anyone asks say you are renting for 30 days. 

 

I didn't understand then why we had to say that.  Now it's a bit more clear. 

[JBChiangRai]

39 minutes ago, Dan O said:

I understood it completely. You cant have a legal document or reg (in this case condo regs) that requires something to be provided by the condo owner and then say it only applies to the management side but not the owner side. Its a binding legal contract. Any penalty is secondary for non compliance and the jurist person or company has the power to enforce it. 

Please provide the clause in the condominium act or other legal clause that says, and I quote you, “that requires something to be provided by the condo owner” we are taking about providing tenants details in case you forgot.

[Dan O]

11 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

You’re going round in circles.

 

The law has to be specific on what it requires and from who.

 

It has to specify what an owner must do or there is no requirement on the owner simply because there is a requirement on the JP or JPM. 

Where there is a requirement, there is also a liability (fine or imprisonment) for failure to do so.  I suspect there is a fine if the JP does not provide the details, but there is no such fine on the owner.

 

Think it through, you’re not making sense.

 

.

You are the one going in circles and talking non sense. If there is a reg in the condo docs or condo laws  it applies to both parties.  Penalties are a separate secondary issue and would be outlined in the regs and it would not be one sided as failure to follow the regs of the condo have penalties for non compliance outlined.  Sure if the jurisdiction person is going outside the regs and making up their own rules that's a different issue

[arick]

16 hours ago, CecilM said:

Gov't is cracking down on landlords and tenants abusing the system. Condo juristic person has to comply and provide documents. 

They're not doing anything extra have you been to the town hall in Chiang Mai I have been I have been in contact with them they're cracking down on illegal hotel businesses without a license. If you have a property agent they have a license to rent your room.   not on Airbnb's or people running out their rooms for a month or three months or a year. I also would like to point out that the jurisdict person works for the cone co-owners she's not entity on to herself.

[arick]

15 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Please provide the clause in the condominium act or other legal clause that says, and I quote you, “that requires something to be provided by the condo owner” we are taking about providing tenants details in case you forgot.

Finally somebody with knows what they're talking about My property agent said it's none of their business for the condo jurisdetic person to see the lease the lease is a private business matter between the co-owner and the tenant it's a private document and he suggested I go get a lawyer

[Dan O]

13 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Please provide the clause in the condominium act or other legal clause that says, and I quote you, “that requires something to be provided by the condo owner” we are taking about providing tenants details in case you forgot.

I have no way of knowing exactly whats in the condo documents for that building nor do you. Tge thai condo regulations are separate and they do not have to match, condo buildings can have additional regs specific to them.  It will be spelled out in those docs so you go try and find that yourself for that building then you will know. If the condo regs for that bldg require them then they need to be provided or the owner of the condo is in non compliance and what penalty is outlined comes into effect. Have you ever managed a condo building before? I have for 11 years so I do have a bit more knowledge than just guessing 

[Dan O]

5 minutes ago, arick said:

Finally somebody with knows what they're talking about My property agent said it's none of their business for the condo jurisdetic person to see the lease the lease is a private business matter between the co-owner and the tenant it's a private document and he suggested I go get a lawyer

Every condo is different to what the building  regs are and specific to that building .  There is not 1 set for every condo structure.   There is one condominium act of tge govt but each condo has their own set of regs  specific. Both are legal documents.  Do a bit more research 

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, Dan O said:

I have no way of knowing exactly whats in the condo documents for that building nor do you. Tge thai condo regulations are separate and they do not have to match, condo buildings can have additional regs specific to them.  It will be spelled out in those docs so you go try and find that yourself for that building then you will know. If the condo regs for that bldg require them then they need to be provided or the owner of the condo is in non compliance and what penalty is outlined comes into effect. Have you ever managed a condo building before? I have for 11 years so I do have a bit more knowledge than just guessing 

If you have managed a condo building for 11 years then you MUST know your buildings rules and the condominium act.

 

I don’t know your buildings rules but I do know the condominium act.  I know the rules in the condominium building I have managed continuously since 2008 when I owned 40% of the building. Even though I haven’t lived there for 12 years I am still JPM.  Our rules say nothing about owners must notify me of tenants names etc.  The condominium act says nothing about owners must notify me of tenants. Owners are responsible for their tenants just like adults are responsible for their children.

 

As JPM I am acutely aware the position is mostly toothless, there is some redress at the land office but mostly a dispute can only be resolved in the courts, it’s totally impractical and resolution comes down to social skills.

 

The first question a court would ask me if I pursued an owner for not disclosing the name of his tenant would be under what law is he required to do that? And the answer to that question is there is no such law. I would be laughed  out of court.

 

I expect you don’t believe me, if you PM me, I will tell you the name of the condo building and you can check it out yourself. We also hold a dispensation that a foreigner can undertake this role.

[Gottfrid]

On 5/2/2024 at 8:18 AM, arick said:

Because it's none of a damn business what my lease is it's private matter between me and my tenant especially when she owns her own property company.

Hey! You do understand that there are rules for the building, right? There are also a law that says you must have a rental contract for minimum 30 days for every tenant. The documents she ask for is all about that, and you are bound by law to provide them. If you do not do, she will change code, which is also well within her rights, for protecting other owners and residents as well as upholding both the rules of the  internal rules that you have signed as well as the laws of Thailand.

So, at the end it IS her damn business and you will be the one standing with a long nose with tenants having to leave your god damn condo.

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

Hey! You do understand that there are rules for the building, right? There are also a law that says you must have a rental contract for minimum 30 days for every tenant. The documents she ask for is all about that, and you are bound by law to provide them. If you do not do, she will change code, which is also well within her rights, for protecting other owners and residents as well as upholding both the rules of the  internal rules that you have signed as well as the laws of Thailand.

So, at the end it IS her damn business and you will be the one standing with a long nose with tenants having to leave your god damn condo.

We don’t know the condo rules, they are lodged at the land office and cannot be changed without an EGM or AGM and resolution passed.

 

I have never heard of condo rules that say an owner has to provide details of his tenant, normally it’s about pets, rubbish, swimming pool etc.

 

The laws around condo’s are enshrined in the condominium act, AirBnB wasn’t around when it was redrafted 20 odd years ago and there is currently no legal requirement for an owner to provide details of their tenants.

 

If the JPM excludes the owner and tenant by changing the code, she is on shaky ground. She may see she is doing it because she believes the tenant holds less than a one month lease, if she is wrong she is on the hook for any damages owner/tenant incurs.

 

Owner is a co-owner, if she acts unlawfully by excluding a co-owner I would either call the police or break the lock. Her only redress would be via the court and she would lose, probably lose her job too.

[Dan O]

21 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

If you have managed a condo building for 11 years then you MUST know your buildings rules and the condominium act.

 

I don’t know your buildings rules but I do know the condominium act.  I know the rules in the condominium building I have managed continuously since 2008 when I owned 40% of the building. Even though I haven’t lived there for 12 years I am still JPM.  Our rules say nothing about owners must notify me of tenants names etc.  The condominium act says nothing about owners must notify me of tenants. Owners are responsible for their tenants just like adults are responsible for their children.

 

As JPM I am acutely aware the position is mostly toothless, there is some redress at the land office but mostly a dispute can only be resolved in the courts, it’s totally impractical and resolution comes down to social skills.

 

The first question a court would ask me if I pursued an owner for not disclosing the name of his tenant would be under what law is he required to do that? And the answer to that question is there is no such law. I would be laughed  out of court.

 

I expect you don’t believe me, if you PM me, I will tell you the name of the condo building and you can check it out yourself. We also hold a dispensation that a foreigner can undertake this role.

If you are or were in a management position for condominiums then you know quite well every condominium has its condominium regulations specific to that facility. it is a legal binding document signed when you purchase the condo and fully enforceable by law. It can contain addition requirement separate from the condo minimum act.  If thos condominium regulations say they need tge name and identification of every tenant then end if story it required and you know that. Are you require to show what you paid or what you rent for then no. If it says no short term leases and your required to show that then end if story.   That's all I have to say on this and if you have the background you claim you know what I write is correct.

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, Dan O said:

If you are or were in a management position for condominiums then you know quite well every condominium has its condominium regulations specific to that facility. it is a legal binding document signed when you purchase the condo and fully enforceable by law. It can contain addition requirement separate from the condo minimum act.  If thos condominium regulations say they need tge name and identification of every tenant then end if story it required and you know that. Are you require to show what you paid or what you rent for then no. If it says no short term leases and your required to show that then end if story.   That's all I have to say on this and if you have the background you claim you know what I write is correct.

 

 

They are usually fairly identical for each condo building, most condos start with a boiler plate condo rules and add, modify or remove a clause, for example, pets, etc. or where you have to put garbage and so on.  They are called the condo rules, a copy of which is lodged at the Land office, they are legally binding, sometimes the Land office will get involved if there is a dispute, but more normally it has to go to the courts.

 

They can only be changed by an AGM or EGM, every condo owner should have a copy of his condo rules and if he hasn’t he can get it from the JPM.  The JPM cannot amend them on her own.

I have never seen a rule in there that says an owner must provide the details of his tenant, Airbnb is a new phenomenon and nobody thought about it before.

Edited May 3 by JBChiangRai

[Henryford]

14 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Sounds like the Juristic thinks or someone's told her you are renting to people less than 30 days, are you?

 

The guy is obviously renting under 30 days that's why he is making such a fuss about it.  Needs to be booted out.

[JBChiangRai]

19 minutes ago, Henryford said:

 

The guy is obviously renting under 30 days that's why he is making such a fuss about it.  Needs to be booted out.

He could well be renting under 30 days and if the JPM/other co-owners suspect that, they will get to the bottom of it not least by hounding his tenants. The JPM can ask to see his lease and if it’s under 30 days he would be very foolish to show it.

 

It is illegal to rent to tenants under 30 days, but it’s not the condominium act.  To do that legally they have to have a one month lease and break early.

 

The JPM can only do their job properly with good interpersonal skills as the role is mostly toothless.

[scubascuba3]

13 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The JPM can only do their job properly with good interpersonal skills as the role is mostly toothless

Blocking door access works as does turning off the water

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Blocking door access works as does turning off the water

Both illegal without a court order.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Blocking door access works as does turning off the water

The JPM wouldn’t risk doing that without knowing for a certainty the tenant has a lease for less than 30 days. It’s illegal but so are short leases.

 

He would be foolish to show any lease shorter than that, she can ask for it, but he can refuse to show it.

 

The only way you can do short leases legally, is by giving your tenant a 30 day lease and telling him that you won’t object to him breaking it early.

 

By far the best way for a condo to handle short leases is to pass a resolution at an AGM/EGM specifying that all leases are subject to a (say) 5,000 baht charge to the maintenance or sinking fund to cover extra wear and tear, plus 15% interest pa if unpaid. This makes it uneconomic for an owner to offer short leases and is not so much an issue on a 12 month lease. You can then prevent the sale of the unit until it’s paid with interest years later.

[scubascuba3]

13 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Both illegal without a court order.

unlikely a problem farang will go to court

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

They are usually fairly identical for each condo building, most condos start with a boiler plate condo rules and add, modify or remove a clause, for example, pets, etc. or where you have to put garbage and so on.  They are called the condo rules, a copy of which is lodged at the Land office, they are legally binding, sometimes the Land office will get involved if there is a dispute, but more normally it has to go to the courts.

 

They can only be changed by an AGM or EGM, every condo owner should have a copy of his condo rules and if he hasn’t he can get it from the JPM.  The JPM cannot amend them on her own.

I have never seen a rule in there that says an owner must provide the details of his tenant, Airbnb is a new phenomenon and nobody thought about it before.

Airbnb have been around for number of years now and become an issue at a number of resort destinations. Yes the Condo docs can be boiler plate and then amended as needed to deal with the specific condo building structure, ownership of amenities, condo maintenance or HOA fees, Capital Expense and Maintenance program and budgeting plan and any other issue relevant. They can be amended by membership vote and are filed with the land office. They can include stricter regs than the Condo Act but can not contradict or lessen the Condo Act. As I have said many times now. If the condo docs call for information on tenant or occupancy then you must comply or face whatever penalty is outline in the docs, if there is one listed. Every condo owner should have a copy to refer to and if the Juristic person is out of bounds thats a separate issue and can be dealt with but you cant give a boiler plate answer to that without seeing the specific condo docs and requirements. 

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Airbnb have been around for number of years now and become an issue at a number of resort destinations. Yes the Condo docs can be boiler plate and then amended as needed to deal with the specific condo building structure, ownership of amenities, condo maintenance or HOA fees, Capital Expense and Maintenance program and budgeting plan and any other issue relevant. They can be amended by membership vote and are filed with the land office. They can include stricter regs than the Condo Act but can not contradict or lessen the Condo Act. As I have said many times now. If the condo docs call for information on tenant or occupancy then you must comply or face whatever penalty is outline in the docs, if there is one listed. Every condo owner should have a copy to refer to and if the Juristic person is out of bounds thats a separate issue and can be dealt with but you cant give a boiler plate answer to that without seeing the specific condo docs and requirements. 

You are correct, but the condominium act does not contain any such clause, so it is down to the condo rules, and I’ve seen lots of different condos sets of rules, but I have never seen one that says owners must provide the details of tenants, the sensible thing to do is to try passing a resolution changing that by AGM or EGM, and to make absolutely certain it happens, specify the penalty if it doesn’t, otherwise you’re in a toothless position again.
 

[arick]

6 hours ago, Dan O said:

I have no way of knowing exactly whats in the condo documents for that building nor do you. Tge thai condo regulations are separate and they do not have to match, condo buildings can have additional regs specific to them.  It will be spelled out in those docs so you go try and find that yourself for that building then you will know. If the condo regs for that bldg require them then they need to be provided or the owner of the condo is in non compliance and what penalty is outlined comes into effect. Have you ever managed a condo building before? I have for 11 years so I do have a bit more knowledge than just guessing 

Well then you have known I've contacted the lawyer and the lawyer for the building is contacting me. 

Problem solved have the lawyer contact you for the building that represents the building and forget about talking on here.

[Dan O]

12 minutes ago, arick said:

Well then you have known I've contacted the lawyer and the lawyer for the building is contacting me. 

Problem solved have the lawyer contact you for the building that represents the building and forget about talking on here.

Then have the mod close the posting if your satisfied with your actions

[Dan O]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

You are correct, but the condominium act does not contain any such clause, so it is down to the condo rules, and I’ve seen lots of different condos sets of rules, but I have never seen one that says owners must provide the details of tenants, the sensible thing to do is to try passing a resolution changing that by AGM or EGM, and to make absolutely certain it happens, specify the penalty if it doesn’t, otherwise you’re in a toothless position again.
 

I've said that all along, its down to the condo docs and there a variety of versions out there. I did a research paper for an large investor in bkk just before covid on condo management and cap ex planning capabilities and of the 10 they had me study, 6 had no plan, 2 didn't know what it was and only 2 had any plan and they were only for current year with no real long term plan. Condo docs were handled equally badly on most, some with crazy stipulations on non owner occupied units.  Condo owners need to educate themselves as the financial exposure to under budgeted buildings is frightening

[arick]

16 hours ago, Dan O said:

I've said that all along, its down to the condo docs and there a variety of versions out there. I did a research paper for an large investor in bkk just before covid on condo management and cap ex planning capabilities and of the 10 they had me study, 6 had no plan, 2 didn't know what it was and only 2 had any plan and they were only for current year with no real long term plan. Condo docs were handled equally badly on most, some with crazy stipulations on non owner occupied units.  Condo owners need to educate themselves as the financial exposure to under budgeted buildings is frightening

Underlying lesson to learn don't invest or by condos in this country.

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, arick said:

Underlying lesson to learn don't invest or by condos in this country.

Not really, ok for buying to live in