Last will and testament and inheritance laws with assets in Thailand and abroad?

[oldestswinger]

19 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

The laws apply to the country where the assets are located.

A will is applicable to the country where your assets are located. For instance, if you have assets in six different countries, you may need to create six separate wills, each specifying your chosen beneficiary(s) for the assets. Additionally, all wills may need to be officially translated into English.

This is correct. You do not need to travel to each country but you must make sure that the making of each will follows the requirements of the country concerned.

[topt]

21 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It would be great if we keep this thread about facts. Maybe you researched this, or maybe you know about foreigners in Thailand who died and how it was decided who inherits what.

Don't know if you have already looked at this but there is a lot of information and misinformation in here -

Although started a while ago it does run into last year and generally most things won't have changed 

[Drumbuie]

The short answer is : make a will in Thailand dealing with the disposal of all your assets in Thailand. Regarding the wording and legality of that will, anyone living in Thailand can get free legal advice on this and any other subject from the Office of International Peoples' Rights Protection,  www.humanrights.ago.go.th   Tel:0-2142-1532 E-mail:humanrightsa[at]go.go.th

They can also give you advice on drawing up a Power of Attorney (which everyone ought to do) in case of incapacitation.

For your assets in another country, make a separate will according to the rules that apply in that country, although it doesn't have to be made in that country.

Incidentally, for your Thai estate, a handwritten*, signed and dated will without witnesses is valid, unlike most other countries.

* by the testator, the person whose will it is, not by another person.

[john donson]

if my home country would  know I have a condo in my name here, and I would die, they would try to get a part of that, FOR SURE...and bank accounts and what not...

 

 

[jvs]

7 minutes ago, john donson said:

if my home country would  know I have a condo in my name here, and I would die, they would try to get a part of that, FOR SURE...and bank accounts and what not...

 

 

How would they do that?Not possible i think.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, newbee2022 said:

Leave it at the City Hall.

Thanks

Is there a city hall like that in Bangkok? Any contact details? 

[Kerryd]

You should ask an actual lawyer however I doubt too many of them have any experience with trying to probate a Will in a foreign country.

The easiest method is to simply have 2 Wills. One "back home" to cover your assets there and one in Thailand to cover your assets here.

Much simpler, especially if you have just one beneficiary.

If you are trying to split assets in 2 different countries amongst heirs in 2 different countries with each being Willed stuff in the other country - then YOU deserve the headaches of trying to sort that out.

Simple fact. Unless you are leaving a fortune to someone in a different country, it may not be worth their time and effort to go to that other country to try and claim those assets.

Friend of mine (American) kicked the bucket back in America years ago. Left some of his Thai assets to his sister but it wasn't worth the cost of flying here, trying to probate the Will (which requires a 45 day waiting period after notification of death to allow family and creditors to lay claims against the estate) and then claiming the small amount of money and whatever momentos he may have left in Thailand.
Basically she'd have spent $10,000 to claim $7,000 in cash and (whatever was left in his rented house).

My dad had 2 Wills, one in Canada and one in Thailand. I was the sole heir in each.

Due to working (in Afghanistan) I couldn't make it back to probate the Thai Will until almost 3 months after his death. Because it was well past the 45 day waiting period, I was able to go to court (with my Lawyer and translator) and have the Will probated in about 30 minutes.

I was able to go to Canada a couple months later (with his Canadian Will and certified True Copies of the Death Certificate) and start the process back there. 
But there is a waiting period there as well and the Will actually ended up being "probated" in my absence  about 6 weeks later. I was able to do some stuff (like cancel his pension payments and arrange for the overpayments to be returned, do his final taxes, ect, etc).

On my next trip to Canada I was able to do all the little things (close his bank account, empty his safe deposit box, transfer his house and so on).

Which is something you also have to consider. In some cases people will appoint an Executor (makes you wonder how they picked that title) whose job it is to carry out the last wishes of the deceased.
Often the Executor is either the heir or the lawyer. As the Executor, that person has the authority to distribute the assets in the Will according to the instructions in the Will. He/she can arrange to transfer assets, close accounts, make payments and so on.
(It's like having a Power of Attorney over the assets.)

And as the Executor, if they incur expenses in the performance of their duties, they can be re-imbursed by assets in the Estate. (So if I had to pay a lawyer to do the Probate, I could withdraw money from the deceased's bank account to pay the bill. Same if he owed taxes or had outstanding bills/credit card balances and so on).

If you had a single Will, you could run into a lot of issues as the laws in different countries, especially with regards to the transfer of assets and taxes, could be quite different.

For example, in some countries you could Will 75% of your estate to your brother or uncle and split the remaining 25% between your wife and 4 daughters.
However, in other countries that would not even be remotely allowed (despite the efforts of some groups to try and change that).

The area where you would run into problems is if you had a Will "back home" for your assets there and then made a new Will here that included those same assets but had different beneficiaries.

(i.e. your Will "back home" left everything to your son and sister including your country estate and priceless artwork. But then you make a new Will in Thailand and leave all that to your "wife you met in the bar last week" and cut your family out of everything. You can bet the "new Will" would be contested by your relatives - in a court back home. And your teerak would have a hard time trying to use a Thai court to enforce the terms of the Thai Will in a foreign country.)

If you really want her to inherit (whatever) back home then you should arrange for it to be transferred to her before you kick the bucket - or take steps to have the marriage recognized "back home" and make a NEW Will back there and destroy your old one.

I was lucky in the sense that I didn't have to worry about stuff like that as I was the Executor and sole beneficiary. Still had to do the work to have the Wills probated and dispose of the assets, but there wasn't an issue with (distant) relatives or "other" people trying to claim any part of his estate in either country.



 

[Wrwest]

I had a Thai lawyer draw up a Thai Will in English and Thai language (statement that in conflict English would prevail). This Will states it covers any/all I own in Thailand. Beneficiary, my Thai Wife. It also states if we die within days of each other (say as a result of a car accident), it is presumed I am the last to die. In which case, my Son in the USA inherits. A separate Will was done in the USA regarding my retirement accounts. Those go to my two Sons in the US. I do not think my US Will is needed as I own nothing other than the accounts in the USA and my Sons are already named as account beneficiaries.

[newbee2022]

15 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks

Is there a city hall like that in Bangkok? Any contact details? 

I can't help you. I did it in Chiangmai. But maybe this will help: 

173 Dinso Rd, Sao Chingcha, Phra Nakhon, Bangkok 10200

[Bennukbin]

Having been an expat for a large portion of my working life I have done quite a lot of research into this subject. Probate and inheritance laws are different in every country and in some cases different jurisdictions within the same country for example Jersey has a different set of laws to the rest of UK. 
 

If you asks a lawyer for advice on this subject you are unlikely to get any clear answers. You will be given the options that will make them the most money. In my experience these complex laws are conjured up to keep lawyers in business hence this whole arbitrary set of rules. 
 

Following my research my deductions are as follows. If you have assets in multiple countries the ultimate answer is to place them all in an international trust however this can be quite expensive as far as set up and administration costs go. The second option is to have a valid will for each country and jurisdiction in which you hold assets. Whilst cumbersome this is the route I have gone down including a will drawn up by a Thai lawyer, translated and attested. To rationalize things a bit I am in the process of consolidating all of my assets into just two jurisdictions. 

On a positive note if one’s assets and distribution wishes are not complex  western countries mostly have a number of online will drafting services available and generally one only needs to have the will witnessed by two independent witnesses who are not beneficiaries. 
 

If you go down this route to save your heirs some serious headaches make sure that the witnesses are likely to be easily located or traced should probate be required. 
 

Ideally unless one wants to be a benefactor then the total sum of all assets should be zero on our last day on earth which would nullify this whole process, however seeing that none of us know when that day is it’s quite hard to plan for. 
 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

10 minutes ago, Bennukbin said:

If you go down this route to save your heirs some serious headaches make sure that the witnesses are likely to be easily located or traced should probate be required. 

Thanks, that is an interesting point.

Is it likely that those witnesses will be contacted?

[roquefort]

23 hours ago, Celsius said:

why don't you spend the money 

So you know the exact date when you're going to die?

[Boedog]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:56 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

Likely I won't die anytime soon, but we never know, so maybe it's time to write my last will and testament - just to be sure.

 

What I like to know is which laws from which countries apply. 

I don't want to make this thread about my personal situation, it's more a general question.

Let's take the following situation.

 

Someone born in the EU with citizenship of an EU country lives in Thailand for over a decade.

He has assets in Thailand like bank account, condominium, vehicles.

He has assets in his home country.

He has assets abroad, in an offshore account (not the country of his citizenship).

He has siblings who live again in other countries.

 

Which laws from which countries apply if he dies and has no last will and testament?

Inheritance laws from his home country? 

Thai laws for his assets in Thailand?

 

What would be the best way to make sure our inheritance goes to the people we want it to go?

A last will and testament in Thailand (only)?

A last will and testament from the home country (only)?

A last will and testament from Thailand and another one from the home country?

 

It would be great if we keep this thread about facts. Maybe you researched this, or maybe you know about foreigners in Thailand who died and how it was decided who inherits what.

Best to have 1 in each country and have separate executors for both wills to deal with your wishes, if you try to split assets to and from other countries l think the only winner would be the lawyers

[Sandboxer]

I'm leaving everything to my Thai maid. 😁

 

Just wish she'd stop insisting I call her by legal name, Mrs. Sandboxer.

[Chongalulu]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:55 AM, Celsius said:

why don't you spend the money 

Like you DIDN'T on an education..?

[Celsius]

13 minutes ago, Chongalulu said:

Like you DIDN'T on an education..?

 

On "an" education?

[khunPer]

On 5/9/2024 at 5:56 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

Likely I won't die anytime soon, but we never know, so maybe it's time to write my last will and testament - just to be sure.

 

What I like to know is which laws from which countries apply. 

I don't want to make this thread about my personal situation, it's more a general question.

Let's take the following situation.

 

Someone born in the EU with citizenship of an EU country lives in Thailand for over a decade.

He has assets in Thailand like bank account, condominium, vehicles.

He has assets in his home country.

He has assets abroad, in an offshore account (not the country of his citizenship).

He has siblings who live again in other countries.

 

Which laws from which countries apply if he dies and has no last will and testament?

Inheritance laws from his home country? 

Thai laws for his assets in Thailand?

 

What would be the best way to make sure our inheritance goes to the people we want it to go?

A last will and testament in Thailand (only)?

A last will and testament from the home country (only)?

A last will and testament from Thailand and another one from the home country?

 

It would be great if we keep this thread about facts. Maybe you researched this, or maybe you know about foreigners in Thailand who died and how it was decided who inherits what.

Normally it's the court in the country of primary residence that handles an estate and any last will(s); however there might be exclusion like real estate in another country than the one of primary residence, or laws about minimum inheritance for some heirs – like in my home country, where you cannot make spouse or children total heirless. So if you more or less permanently live in Thailand, it's likely Thailand.

 

The Thai lawyers that wrote the book "Thai Law for Foreigners" suggests that you make two last will: One covering your assets in Thailand and following Thai law; and another covering your assets in your home country and following the laws there. It can be very simple to make a last will, but make sure that it's clearly written text of what you want.

 

Inheritance tax or fees are normally dependant of the residence of the heir.

[topt]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks, that is an interesting point.

Is it likely that those witnesses will be contacted?

Very doubtful unless the will is challenged.

[Dioj]

10 hours ago, oxo1947 said:

Yes........as stated it has been discussed on here a few times you might want to look back and get other ideas--I am from Oz, and I as well as a will which you can just download there--have made my Daughter power of Attorney , in case I need funds and am unable to access from here. Most countries UK--USA  etc have a site where you can download a will form, usually for free---or just a small fee. Unless you have something very complicated in your holdings from your country-- its all fairly basic. For My wife here I have increased my ATM card to 50,000 Bht a day so she can clear out fund from that in a few days.

The question was were the two files you uploaded duplicates because it appears you updated the same identical file twice by accident. 

[oxo1947]

Yes my apologies------how stupid---one should be in Thai----same wording..... will upload.

 

23 minutes ago, Dioj said:

The question was were the two files you uploaded duplicates because it appears you updated the same identical file twice by accident. 

 

[Captor]

12 hours ago, dlclark97 said:

I am from the US and I have made both a Thai and USA Will.  There are very specific ways a Thai Will is written.  This almost requires that the Will be written, and signatures witnessed by a Thai lawyer.   Each paragraph of my Thai Will is first in Thai followed by the English version.  The Thai Will must include specific details such as images of bank account passbook ownership pages.  Any vehicles to be left to an individual must be specifically identified.  For my Thai Will (not expensive) photographs were taken of me will the Will and parts of me signing the Will.  These pictures are included in the final copy for signatures.  I signed plus the lawyer and one witness signed each page of the Will.  My initial Will cost was 10K baht and later modifications or additions are 5K baht.  The USA Will is much easier.  It should have similar detail as in a Thai Will but only has to be completed in English.  I used three witnesses, 2 Thais and a retired US Army Colonel to witness my signing of the Will.  Whatever you do, don't delay making your Wills.  It will save your family and friends untold headaches trying to get things sorted if you die without proper Wills.

So everytime you change car or motorcycle or renew the passport or open a new bank account, there must be made a new Thai will? That sounds strange.. sounds like a good business for the lawyers.

[Dioj]

11 hours ago, oxo1947 said:

Yes my apologies------how stupid---one should be in Thai----same wording..... will upload.

 

 

Both files already contain both Thai and English versions within each of the identical files you uploaded. Seemingly nothing more is needed. 

[Bennukbin]

21 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks, that is an interesting point.

Is it likely that those witnesses will be contacted?

Just from experience dealing with my late Mothers estate in both Ireland and Australia. Both witnesses had pre-deceased her and it was quite a chore to get death certificates for them as the probate court required either their current addresses or proof that they were real people who were at one time acquainted with my parents. 

[fceligoj]

Last wills & testaments are NOT recognized across country borders.  Need to have a will in each country.

[topt]

15 hours ago, Captor said:

So everytime you change car or motorcycle or renew the passport or open a new bank account, there must be made a new Thai will? That sounds strange.. sounds like a good business for the lawyers.

It seems to be something that the lawyers here in Thailand like to do - guess it potentially removes any ambiguity.

 

However I agree with you and made this same point to a foreign para legal (not sure what to call him) who works here and posted on previous will threads. he admitted that It definitely isn't something that has to be done but he was in favour of it. 

[OneMoreFarang]

52 minutes ago, topt said:

It seems to be something that the lawyers here in Thailand like to do - guess it potentially removes any ambiguity.

 

However I agree with you and made this same point to a foreign para legal (not sure what to call him) who works here and posted on previous will threads. he admitted that It definitely isn't something that has to be done but he was in favour of it. 

 

I think in general it helps in any country to have details about the assets. I.e. it is good to know someone has bank accounts with bank X and bank Y. Because otherwise maybe nobody knows that a person had a bank account with bank Z. In some countries there is no easy way to find out - I have no idea about this issue in Thailand.

[topt]

53 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

I think in general it helps in any country to have details about the assets. I.e. it is good to know someone has bank accounts with bank X and bank Y. Because otherwise maybe nobody knows that a person had a bank account with bank Z. In some countries there is no easy way to find out - I have no idea about this issue in Thailand.

In the UK, for example, a lot of people have been chasing the best savings rates and will move money around online to different banks depending on that. If you had to keep updating your will every time it would not only be a chore but also you may die between changing and updating......

 

I agree you need to have details about the assets accessible to at least your executor(s). In my case I have a a separate document which I update as necessary and which I send to the relevant trusted people. This contains all the details they should need.

 

I actually go further and have it encrypted and the password is available separately.

[OneMoreFarang]

28 minutes ago, topt said:

In the UK, for example, a lot of people have been chasing the best savings rates and will move money around online to different banks depending on that. If you had to keep updating your will every time it would not only be a chore but also you may die between changing and updating......

 

I agree you need to have details about the assets accessible to at least your executor(s). In my case I have a a separate document which I update as necessary and which I send to the relevant trusted people. This contains all the details they should need.

 

I actually go further and have it encrypted and the password is available separately.

If you put the bank account numbers in the document, then I understand that you want to encrypt it.

But the bank account number is not really necessary. If "you" have documents that you inherited everything from one person, then it's good enough to know the name of the bank. Then contact the bank with the necessary documents and they will find out the details.